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Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:20 PM

As long as we're getting rid of monuments to slave owners,

shouldn't the electoral college also be on the list?

46 replies, 7632 views

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Reply As long as we're getting rid of monuments to slave owners, (Original post)
vlyons Jun 2020 OP
Eliot Rosewater Jun 2020 #1
leftieNanner Jun 2020 #2
Paladin Jun 2020 #3
sop Jun 2020 #4
BannonsLiver Jun 2020 #5
UTUSN Jun 2020 #6
fierywoman Jun 2020 #7
brush Jun 2020 #8
Evolve Dammit Jun 2020 #9
IronLionZion Jun 2020 #10
geardaddy Jun 2020 #22
Celerity Jun 2020 #37
IronLionZion Jun 2020 #41
niyad Jun 2020 #11
KPN Jun 2020 #12
CountMyVote4Reality Jun 2020 #13
crickets Jun 2020 #14
bobbieinok Jun 2020 #15
KS Toronado Jun 2020 #16
Kaleva Jun 2020 #24
yellowdogintexas Jun 2020 #33
Upthevibe Jun 2020 #17
Capt. America Jun 2020 #44
FBaggins Jun 2020 #18
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #21
FBaggins Jun 2020 #26
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #29
FBaggins Jun 2020 #31
IronLionZion Jun 2020 #28
FBaggins Jun 2020 #30
C Moon Jun 2020 #19
LymphocyteLover Jun 2020 #20
llashram Jun 2020 #23
lagomorph777 Jun 2020 #25
customerserviceguy Jun 2020 #27
ProfessorGAC Jun 2020 #40
customerserviceguy Jun 2020 #43
Straw Man Jun 2020 #32
Doreen Jun 2020 #34
calimary Jun 2020 #35
Poiuyt Jun 2020 #36
jaxexpat Jun 2020 #38
brooklynite Jun 2020 #39
MarcA Jun 2020 #42
Josiesdad Jun 2020 #45
zentrum Jun 2020 #46

Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:24 PM

1. Ka ching

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:36 PM

2. PERFECT!!

We have much work to do next year!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:37 PM

3. This one deserves wide circulation. Dead-bang perfect. (nt)

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:41 PM

4. Excellent observation!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:43 PM

5. If only we could make some kind of deal with the red states

You can keep your racist statues, and well take something that actually matters the electoral college.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:55 PM

6. Now, *that* is the best one to get rid of!1

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 12:57 PM

7. MOVE TO #1 ON THE LIST !!!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 01:36 PM

8. Bazinga!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 01:45 PM

9. Cue it up. Looooong overdue. Popular vote, paper trail, scanners that can't be hacked.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 01:47 PM

10. 14th amendment says we can take away electoral votes from some racially oppressive states

since they are denying their citizens the right to vote

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.


Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment allows for a state's representation in the House of Representatives to be reduced if a state unconstitutionally denies people the right to vote. The reduction is in keeping with the proportion of people denied a vote. This amendment refers to "the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States" among other elections, the only place in the Constitution mentioning electors being selected by popular vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College#Fourteenth_Amendment

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:59 PM

22. This needs to be its own OP!

Thanks for sharing this.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 05:41 AM

37. the 14th Amendment unfortunately also created a MASSIVE disenfranchisement tool

https://eji.org/news/race-voting-and-a-gaping-loophole-a-critical-look-at-the-14th-amendment/

The Fourteenth Amendment is an amendment that was intended to give formerly enslaved people citizenship, explained Ryan Haygood, a civil rights lawyer who has litigated landmark challenges to disenfranchisement. But it was also the same amendment that allowed, expressly, for those rights to be withheld if you were convicted of a crime. That conflict is a function of America at once being a place that has very high ideals of freedom and equality, alongside very low practices that undermine the very things that we say we hold dear.


Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:59 AM

41. That's why they like to incarcerate people who look like Democrats

ie minorities. We can try to get them on purging voter registrations of people who were not convicted of any crimes but just had a similar name or changed addresses or something innocent like that.

But mostly they really hate the first section of the 14th amendment because it gives me birthright citizenship. No matter how hard they argue about what "real Americans" look like, it doesn't change where I was born.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 01:51 PM

11. Absolutely!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 01:56 PM

12. K&R!

Snap! Perfect logic in that.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:01 PM

13. Thank you!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:03 PM

14. Yes! It's long past time to get rid of the electoral college.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:09 PM

15. Your wording of question is excellent

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:10 PM

16. When Joe's in the WH & we take the Senate, they'll make sure to kill it

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Response to KS Toronado (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:03 PM

24. I doubt very much Biden would support such an effort.

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Response to KS Toronado (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 08:07 PM

33. It will require a constitutional amendment which can drag on for years. nt

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:13 PM

17. I sooooooooooooo want to get rid of the

Electorial College.....

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Response to Upthevibe (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 28, 2020, 01:05 AM

44. x1000

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:41 PM

18. The EC isn't a monument to slavery

The misconception is usually fueled by so many small-population states being red today and the perception that red states are in some sense more-racist... but the EC was a compromise between large/small population states during the founding era. And those didn't correlate with North/South or slave/free.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:58 PM

21. Close: The EC was not the compromise.

It's known as the 3/5 compromise.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #21)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:11 PM

26. We got rid of that monument over a century and a half ago

The OP was about the EC... which was not created to perpetuate slavery.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #26)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:29 PM

29. The Electoral College was constructed to give more power to white southerners, out of proportion

to their states' populations. As Madison himself said:

There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections.


A racist policy, the 3/5 Compromise, was already in place to apportion seats in Congress, so they might as well apply it to the EC, as well.

Even now, the system hurts Black voters:


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/electoral-college-racist-origins/601918/
Despite black voting patterns to the contrary, five of the six states whose populations are 25 percent or more black have been reliably red in recent presidential elections. Three of those states have not voted for a Democrat in more than four decades. Under the Electoral College, black votes are submerged. Its the precise reason for the success of the southern strategy. Its precisely how, as Buckley might say, the South has prevailed.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:54 PM

31. That once again confuses the two "compromises"

The EC balanced the interests of small vs large states while the 3/5 compromise balanced slave/free... but those aren't the same groups. There were large and small states in both the North and South.

The Madison quote is not related to the characteristic of the EC that gives smaller states relatively more power than the larger ones in selecting the executive (the current objection). He was talking about electors vs direct voting (and in relation to executive re-eligibility, not election). His point is equally valid if the electoral college was apportioned by population alone.




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Response to FBaggins (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:28 PM

28. There have been attempts to abolish the EC

always blocked and filibustered by Dixiecrats and rural conservatives because it benefits them.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:36 PM

30. Which is basically what I said

The groups that the EC currently helps are not evidence for why it was originally created.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:44 PM

19. If we didn't have that, Putin would have never succeeded.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 02:56 PM

20. NAILED IT!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:02 PM

23. yep, it's a slave era holdover

and gave us this current disaster-trainwreck of a POTUS even though HRC had almost 3 million more popular votes than the disaster-trainwreck

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:06 PM

25. Boom!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:17 PM

27. It doesn't take a constitutional amendment

to remove a statue. And an angry mob can't rip the EC out of the Constitution.

All it takes is thirteen states to say, "No, we like the EC the way it is," and it stays. I'm sure there are at least fifteen states that feel that way.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 07:32 AM

40. Therein Lies The Problem

I think you're being generous at 15.
Just a quick mental run through of states, I counted 20 that would be unlikely to sign on.
I like the sentiment.
But, I believe it's a pipe dream.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 11:40 AM

43. It's not a bug, it's a feature

And every time someone bemoans the fact that Wyoming has as many Senators as New York or California, I always reply that Congress voted on accepting new states into the Union on those terms, including Senators of the most populous states.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:20 PM

32. Getting rid of monuments to slave owners, you say?

Why does no one mention this one?

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 01:17 AM

34. NO F*****G S**T!!!!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 01:17 AM

35. BOOM!

"As long as we're getting rid of monuments to slave owners, shouldn't the electoral college also be on the list?"

The Question of the Year, vlyons! Of the last four years, actually.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 05:12 AM

36. Good one!

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 07:00 AM

38. I wish I'd said that.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 07:03 AM

39. Let us know when you have 3/5 of the States in agreement.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2020, 11:28 AM

42. Adherence to Inertia caused by Structural Bindings will bring down a Nation.

Especially when those structures are being used to subvert democracy and justice.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2020, 10:36 AM

45. Well... as long as there is a "list"... I have a suggestion

If you are familiar with Professor Bogus' famous essay on the History of the Second Amendment (and others) he make a very compelling case that the original intent of adding the right to bear arms to the bill of rights was to entice Madison's home state (Virginia) into ratifying the newly proposed constitution. They were reluctant to get behind it up to that point. Their major concern was that their Slave Patrol (aka State Militia) would, under the new constitution, fall under the control of the federal government and would no longer be their protection against slave revolts. This fear was a very real and long standing in the south in this era and was mentioned prominently ('... HE HAS EXCITED DOMESTIC INSURRECTIONS ...') in our Declaration of Independence.

So... if an argument can be made that the electoral college should be abolished as a vestige enshrined in the constitution to protect the institution of slavery... A much stronger argument can be made that the 2nd amendment's only useful purpose was to protect Slave Owners. It too is an anachronism and should be repealed.

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Response to vlyons (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2020, 06:01 PM

46. Brilliant point.

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