Black Lives Matter Too... That extra word "Too"

[keithbvadu2]

Last edited Wed Jun 24, 2020, 10:37 AM - Edit history (1)

Black Lives Matter Too... That extra word "Too"

It should be used.

It completely obliterates the counter argument/point of "All Lives Matter" or "Blue Lives Matter".

It it inclusive of "All", not exclusive.

If someone counters with "All Lives Matter", the reply is: 'Yes! That is the point. Black Lives Matter Too.'
-----------------------------

On edit: Make that - "It could be used."

Absolutes are not good.

Some people are not willing to consider new ideas.

"All Lives Matter" could be co-opted to be a positive rather than a negative.

[BSdetect]

1. Sadly some might see that as a distraction or diminution. Seems like a good addition to me.

[SoonerPride]

2. No. It is unnecessary.

Black Lives Matter.

Full stop.

[Mike 03]

3. Agree.

The "too" weakens it. Look at it on the page and compare it to "Black Lives Matter." Also, what are you going to do with the "too"? Are you going to capitalize it? Not capitalize it? Small things make a big difference.

It's like you're asking for permission or something, or kind of shy or embarrassed to ask for what's rightfully yours.

[luvs2sing]

8. I agree, too.

No quibbling. Period. If people don’t get it, they won’t get it any more if it’s weakened down.

[malaise]

32. Correct n/t

[Caliman73]

36. Agreed.

There is no need for a "too".

Black Lives Matter.

We already know that other lives matter. We, as a nation have a big problems with the concept of Black Lives Matter so we need to repeat it as a stand alone:

BLACK LIVES MATTER

[Solomon]

81. People who pretend not to know what black lives matter means are being intellectually dishonest.

Simple as that. Fuck 'em.

[gollygee]

85. +1

Nothing more needs to be said.

[LuckyCharms]

4. I've always thought this would be a good idea, as well.

Except that the jerks that want to counter this message will just come up with some different bullshit.

The "All Lives Matter" people are too goddamn stupid to look into the meaning of a simple message anyway.

[SoonerPride]

6. If someone calls 911 and says "my house is on fire!"

This is not a very helpful response: "All houses matter."

"Well no shit but MY house is on fire right this minute. Please help."

Black lives are at risk DAILY.

They're the house on fire we need to help RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

The "all lives matter" crowd are racists.

So yes, they are too stupid and also too racist to give a shit.

[Bev54]

31. I like that analogy n/t

[MurrayDelph]

49. If I say

"Save Mono Lake" it doesn't mean "Tahoe can go to Hell."

If I say "Save Soviet Jewry" it doesn't mean I don't give a shit about Jewish people in Scotland.

And if I say "Save the Whales" it doesn't mean "Screw the Dolphins"*




*(Unless you're talking about the Miami football team, in which case, yeah, fuck those guys)

[mantis49]

20. To those people:

All lives DON'T matter until "Black Lives Matter".

[treestar]

35. At least it would be harder

For them. What could they come up with after that?

Adding the word makes it clear the black lives were not mattering to the rightie. So he has no out on the supposed lack of equality.

[demmiblue]

5. No it shouldn't. n/t

[StarfishSaver]

7. No. This isn't about semantics. It's about purposeful avoidance of the issue.

Anyone who claims to not understand what Black Lives Matter means isn't going to suddenly get on board because someone stuck the word "too" onto the phrase.

People know what it means. They're playing dumb and pretending they don't understand it because they don't care. "Too" isn't going to change that. They'll just find some other stupid dodge to avoid the issue.

[keithbvadu2]

10. "They'll just find some other stupid dodge to avoid the issue."

"They'll just find some other stupid dodge to avoid the issue."

You have just explained why it should be used.

It eliminates that first 'dodge'.

[StarfishSaver]

14. No, it doesn't. It just tells BLM to jump around like little kids playing "You're getting WARMER!"

Ain't nobody got time for that.

Black Lives Matter is what it is. It's not up to us to keep trying to come up with new words to explain the obvious to people who already know what it means but are just looking for excuses to ignore us. And the "You're not explaining it well enough" is a stalling tactic that puts the onus on US and wastes a whole lot of our time and energy.

But since you think this would be a more effective way to communicate it, instead of telling us how WE should say it, why don't YOU go talk to people, using whatever wording you choose, including "Black Lives Matter, Too." If that works on the people you communicate with, that's great and you will be doing a great service to the movement. But please don't tell everyone else how we should say it.

[keithbvadu2]

17. Sorry that you disagree with yourself.

[DeminPennswoods]

45. I will respectfully disagree

Saying "Black lives matter" automatically sets up the knee jerk reaction of "blue lives" or "all lives" matter.
It is exclusionary and, no, the irony is not lost on me.

My perception is that BLM wants to bring out that AfAms have been excluded from participating fully in the American meritocracy system and that needs to change through attitudes and policies. By adding the "too", it makes the point that AfAms have largely been shunted aside, not cared about and unseen except where they intersect with white lives. "Too" intuitively makes people sympathetic to the cause. After all, who among us hasn't at some point or another been excluded from something and thought "I'm (whatever it is), too"?

[StarfishSaver]

46. Ok

If you know what BLM really means and you think there's a better way to say it, by all means, say it the way you think is best.

The main thing is for you to be talking to people and trying to get them to understand what's going on, which is far more important than telling the movement how it should be doing its messaging.

BE the message yourself ...

[DeminPennswoods]

47. That is what I try to do

when the chance presents itself.

And thank you for your thoughtful reply.

[JonLP24]

48. This isn't even an issue outside of this thread

& right wing bubbles. Major corporations, Hollywood celebrities, hundreds or protests all over the world with people displaying black lives matter.

If people can't figure out the name it is because they were not paying to the events that led to the name or they were not outraged by them. You remember Trayvon Martin?

Personally, I think the exclusionary has been the other way around which is why we have the problems that we have.

The people that say all lives matter or white lives matter are like the people who say white pride as a counter to black pride.

[JonLP24]

18. I posted at a Cardinals board for awhile

Whenever Kaepernick came up people would try to argue BLM name is exclusive and I patiently explain it doesn't mean all other lives don't matter. It means black lives have value they matter. It makes sense to use the name after Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, etc. People go out of their way to not get it.

The board was mostly right wing though. They were outraged at the outrage when the Cardinals fired Steve Wilks after one season with a bad roster.

If you're not aware of the Steve Wilks firing controversy here is an article.

Arizona Cardinals Hiring Kliff Kingsbury Proves That Mediocre White Men Stay Winning

Five of the eight head coaches fired by NFL teams this year were black. Despite the fact that 70 percent of the league’s players are African American, none of the six head coaches team hired since the end of the season are black.

At most, Kingsbury biggest resumé accomplishment is being a white man. I have not run his full DNA makeup, but by the look of things, he is, in fact, a white man and he’s now the coach of an NFL team after being fired from his old job with a dismal 5-7 campaign with Texas Tech in 2018.

(snip)

And it can’t be lost that Kingsbury is replacing is Steve Wilks, a black man who was given exactly one year as a head coach before he was let go. The most woke newscaster Dale Hansen had this to say after learning that Kingsbury had been given a job.

https://www.theroot.com/arizona-cardinals-hiring-kliff-kingsbury-proves-that-me-1831646911

[Jirel]

19. You're the one who doesn't get it.

“Save the rainforest” isn’t understood as exclusionary. It isn’t understood as “Save the rainforest but go ahead and burn down the redwoods.” Nobody would imagine countering it with “But save the Everglades too!”

Only, only, only does Black Lives Matter get this treatment. Only does Black Lives Matter get twisted by threatened, racist people to mean “Black lives matter, but f*** the Asians, the Native Americans, the Latinex...” This phrase is a barometer for racism, and that is part of its power.

Black Lives Matter is not about making it emotionally easy for white people to confront their racism that is killing black people.

No amount of change will make it comfortable to racists. So stop tone policing. Either support the movement, or be honest and do some soul searching about why.

[StarfishSaver]

22. Thank you!

[keithbvadu2]

28. So now I'm supposedly not supporting...

"Either support the movement, or be honest and do some soul searching about why."

[Jirel]

33. When the shoe fits...

If you're feeling attacked by that statement, figure out why.

[keithbvadu2]

34. Falsely attacked.

Falsely attacked.

Got it figured out.

[StarfishSaver]

37. No, you don't have it figured out at all. Which is why some soul-searching is in order

[keithbvadu2]

39. You show your own discomfort.

[StarfishSaver]

40. If you're not feeling discomfort, you're not paying attention

But your discomfort is all about the wrong things, as your comments in this thread attest ...

[keithbvadu2]

41. Sorry that you disagree with yourself.

[StarfishSaver]

42. LOL

That's the second time today you've responded that way to me when you couldn't come up with anything intelligent to say.

[wellst0nev0ter]

90. Some people can't say three simple words

[JI7]

44. No it doesn't. it just allows bigots to control things

[JonLP24]

9. They came up with the name they have been around for years doing the work and look at that support

they have today.

I don't think it is a good idea to co-opt protests then tell them what to say. It is like the Defund the police. The phrase has been around for years by activists working to address these issues but the recent protests are the first time a lot of people heard of the phrase and then people who haven't done any of the activist work tell them not to say that.

As far as "Blue Lives Matter"

Russians’ Biggest Facebook Ad Promoted ‘Blue Lives Matter’

The most-viewed Facebook message secretly created by a St. Petersburg-based Russian troll farm was one that allegedly backed American cops.

“Back The Badge” appeared to be an authentically American community on Facebook rallying support for police officers. In fact it was Russian, a creation of the Internet Research Agency, an online propaganda mill that special counsel Robert Mueller indicted in February on conspiracy charges.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-biggest-facebook-ad-promoted-blue-lives-matter

[HotTeaBag]

11. Agreed.

Without it it's a call not for equality (which is held out to be the end goal), but for exclusivity.

Without it, then we need 'Native American Lives Matter', 'Asian American Lives Matter', 'Hispanic Lives Matter', 'Jewish Lives Matter', 'Victims of Domestic Violence Lives Matter', 'West Virginia Coal Workers Lives Matter', etc., etc., etc.

Also the metaphor of a house burning doesn't quite fit in these particular times - it's not just a single house that's on fire, the entire neighborhood is burning.

[Jirel]

12. Hell no.

Quit the tone policing.

This is a movement for black lives. It’s not a movement for lives... and black lives too.

Black lives are not an addendum.

Save the rainforest too. Save the white rhino too. Save the whales too.
These phrases sound weak and idiotic for good reason. They sound even more idiotic when applied to black lives.

It is not the job of the BLM movement to make it easier for white folks to hear their message.

Quit tone policing.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. "It is not the job of the BLM movement to make it easier for white folks to hear their message."

WELL SAID.

[greenjar_01]

21. Yup

[RobinA]

69. It's The Job

of any movement that is trying to change minds to present its message in the way that will be most likely to change the minds that the movement wants to change. Otherwise it’s just making noise.

That said, groups can use whatever methods they want. If they want to be successful, they will be open to changing what needs to be changed.

[Jirel]

70. It doesn't need to be changed one bit.

It’s perfect for its purpose.

It’s the listener - including YOU - who feels threatened by it. That says nothing about the message, but a lot about the listener.

These activists do not owe it to you to be kind, or to whisper, or especially to say “pretty please.”

Enough with the tone policing. It’s not about you, or your comfort.

[RobinA]

73. Did You Actually

read my post? You seem to have missed my point completely. I don’t care what message is used. I don’t have a dog in this hunt. Continue to beat people over the head with phrases they say they hate. But don’t then wonder why change never happens. If you want people to change, you have to meet them where they are

[StarfishSaver]

83. Change is not not happening because BLM's slogan isn't what you want it to be

Good Lord - I can't believe I'm watching people actually blaming a movement for the fact that some white people are racist and refuse to change.

Instead of lecturing black activists on how they should speak, why not direct your efforts on INSTRUCTING RACIST WHITE PEOPLE ON HOW TO STOP BEING RACISTS!

Damn. I can't even believe this conversation is taking place on a Democratic discussion board.

[gollygee]

86. BLM is doing fine

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. Maybe when you hear "Black Lives Matter" you can add "too" quietly in your head, to yourself.

[StarfishSaver]

25. Thank you

It's not like "Black Lives Matter" is a required curriculum that everyone must say when they talk to people. If they think the people they know would be more receptive to "Black Lives Matter, Too," they're perfectly free to go ahead and say it.

But I doubt that most of the people doing all of this tone policing and grammar correcting are having any conversations. They prefer to sit around doing nothing and put it all on us - and then use their dissatisfaction with our choice of language as an excuse for them not doing jack squat to help the movement.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

26. Tone-policing and correcting is always about more than the wrong word or how someone said something.

And it's always much more about the person doing the policing than the hypothetical "what other people might think."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. No, that makes it sound defensive and weakens it.

[lame54]

23. Sounds like a sequal

[demmiblue]

27. And the sequel is usually not as good as the original.

[Solly Mack]

24. Nah.

[keithbvadu2]

29. Not bad! I knew there would be some disagreement but...

Not bad!

I knew there would be some disagreement but I did not think there would be such vigorous feelings that "All Lives Matter" should be a valid negative counterpoint to BLM.

Especially when it could be co-opted to support BLM.

[Demsrule86]

30. No, it is defensive and unnecessary.

You assume that Black Lives Matters means Black Lives Matter only...no one says that.

[Bettie]

38. The first time I heard "Black Lives Matter"

I reflexively thought that it was obvious and devalued others' lives.

Then, I started paying more attention and realized that the point is that black lives DON'T matter to our society. They don't matter to the police, they don't matter to a large number of people in this country, and they don't matter to many of the people making our laws.

But, the big moment for me was the realization that if those three words make a certain class of people SO angry, it is clearly the right message.

They wouldn't be angry if it didn't make them uncomfortable. If they didn't understand why it needed to be said.

This has all been part of working my way to being better and actively working to empathize with life experiences that I, as a white woman, will never have.

Oh, and it is also a nice, short, easy to deliver message that gets the point across without requiring explanation, which is key these days.

[keithbvadu2]

57. "reflexively thought that it was obvious and devalued others' lives"

Yep.

You and I know it is not the case but many don't want to realize it.

You'll hear "ALM" from those folks.

Why support them?

[Bettie]

58. I don't support them

I think BLM is a very good phrase.

Some will never understand it, but that's their choice, not a lack of understanding.

Some will understand, eventually.

ETA: And to the point of the OP. It doesn't need "too" in order for people to get it.

[keithbvadu2]

62. Some people need that 'too'.

They don't want to realize it. That's their choice.

[Bettie]

65. Those people are making a choice

generally, they say "Blue Lives Matter" without a "too".

It's the black that bothers them.

[keithbvadu2]

67. Yep.

Right wingers came up with 'Blue Lives Matter'.

But ya didn't hear them complain much when the Oregon standoff militia called for their 'patriots' to come kill the police.

Not much criticism from the right wing when Cliven Bundy's sniper was sighting in on LEO badges.

[Bettie]

68. Just cheering

from that crowd.

[struggle4progress]

43. It sounds like an afterthought

"Blacks should be paid for their work, too"

"Blacks should be able to vote, too"

"Blacks should be able to walk down the street without being shot, too"

[keithbvadu2]

50. Nice dodge. Good one.

[LanternWaste]

63. Odd... I'm getting that vibe from every one of your responses.

Kind of a shame you abjectly fail to support any or your sentiments or positions with objective evidence and instead rely solely on the non-sequiter fallacy. Every time.

But I'm certain you'll have an excuse for that,

[keithbvadu2]

66. No excuse. You give another great dodge.

[demmiblue]

53. Excellent!

[ElementaryPenguin]

51. I agree with you.

And I fully support the Black Lives Matter movement.

I agree that it would disarm that one argument that some make against it.

Words matter.

Black Lives Matter Too is a slight improvement.

[demmiblue]

52. If you fully support the BLM movement, you would support THEIR slogan.

Good lawd, this is just so embarrassing to see this here.

[RobinA]

77. This Is Just

such odd thinking to me. When you are trying to get a point across, you have to use words that work FOR YOUR AUDIENCE, not for you.

[demmiblue]

79. OK, Karen. n/t

[gollygee]

87. Why do you think you're the audience?

Why do you think you should be? Why should white people be centered? Why should fragile white people be centered?

[StarfishSaver]

60. If you think "words matter," then use the words you want

Nobody's stopping you from saying, "too" if you want.

When you are out and about acting as an ally and talk to white people about what Black Lives Matter is all about, you have every right and opportunity to explain that you think it means "Black Lives Matter, Too."

So, what's the problem?

[SoonerPride]

64. why do we have to change the message to appease racists?

why?

[jmg257]

54. I always figure if someone doesn't agree with a movement,

They’re free to start their own.

Articulate why it’s a good notion, get people to go along.

If it’s viable (and lawful) it may get legs...too.

[StarfishSaver]

61. IKR?

But they don't even have to go that far.

If they think "Black Lives Matter, Too" is a better slogan, they are free to say it all they like.

This is just a dodge - spending time lecturing the movement about how their wording isn't right is just an excuse for not doing the work that needs to be done.

[PTWB]

55. What the fuck is this?

We don’t need a god damn qualifier. The slogan isn’t ONLY black lives matter. We don’t need to appease white supremacists and say black lives matter TOO.

BLACK LIVES MATTER

END OF STORY.

If you take offense to the name of this movement then perhaps black lives DONT matter to YOU!

I can’t believe I’m reading this shit.

[keithbvadu2]

56. "We don't need to appease white supremacists and say black lives matter TOO. "

Negating their primary negative response of 'ALM' is appeasing white supremacists?

[SoonerPride]

59. why do we have to change the message to appease racists?

fuck them.

[RobinA]

75. If You Wish To Change

the racists, you will not be successful by beating them over the head with a phrase they have made it clear they don’t like.

[SoonerPride]

78. Fuck them

I’m not here to make them change their Minds by begging them to see things like a sane adult.

I want policy to change.

The racists can fuck off.

[StarfishSaver]

80. You think adding the word "too" to "Black Lives Matter" will "change the racists"?

Here's a clue. The problem isn't the absence of the word "too." The problem is the presence of the word "black" and the existence of the people it describes.

Semantics aren't going to fix that.

[SoonerPride]

82. You were kinder in your rebuttal than I was

I get too emotional to think straight.

Thank you for your cogent reply.

[gollygee]

89. They should not be centered in this discussion

and BLM's approval rating has been soaring. Get over it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

91. Only Trumpanzees don't support BLM

Even the majority of whites support BLM, get with the times.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html

[keithbvadu2]

92. The times

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213645528

[gollygee]

88. I can believe it

It's the same thing over and over again no matter the specific issue when racism is the discussion. White fragility. Fragile white people always try to find a way to center themselves.

[Voltaire2]

71. I'll go with BLM, but thanks for the suggestion. nt.

[demmiblue]

76. Check out the edit.

How can people be so clueless?!

[Silent3]

72. How about adding a heart emoji? ❤️

BLACK LIVES MATTER ❤️

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[demmiblue]

74. Oh, good lawd... the edit.

I mean seriously, what is this shit?!