maybe a good analogy for why people vote against their own best interests?

[yaesu]

<a href="https://ibb.co/Hq3vLzm"><img src="" alt="forest-shrink" border="0"></a>

[PBC_Democrat]

1. Or Maybe ...

The "people vote against their own best interests" have a better idea of what their best interests are than you do ....

[Blue_Adept]

2. Correct

Their best interest is in getting more judges placed to strike down abortion rights.

Educating their kids
clean water for their kids
safe schools for their kids
concern for their neighbors
their country

These things are not in their interest.

[we can do it]

7. Don't feed the troll.

[pintobean]

14. I agree with PBC

So does Kaleva in post #12 below. Does believing that people are capable of determining their our best interests themselves make one a troll?

I've been a DUer for nearly 16 years, Kaleva nearly 12. It's a big party. I don't appreciate anyone trying to drive members away.

[Recursion]

20. I'm with pintobean and kaleva

"We know better than you do what you want" is not only a vote-loser, it's generally not true. People know what they're voting for, and they vote for what they want, as much as we wish they didn't want that.

[Shrek]

21. +1

People are generally experts when it comes to their own lives.

It's doubtful an anonymous stranger knows much about their values and how strongly they hold them.

[PBC_Democrat]

25. Reaching these people

And trying to understand why they vote the way they do is a better long term approach than writing them off as too stupid to think for themselves.

We cannot effectively steer the country forward if we are the party of the northeast, the pacific states and a few big cities.

[Garrett78]

38. There've already been studies on why they vote the way they do. It's primarily racism and ignorance.

This is one of many articles on the subject: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study.

It's not some great mystery.

[hadEnuf]

13. And what has Trump possibly done for other people's interests

besides his own and the for the people who bankroll him?

[Duppers]

18. You've gotta be kidding.

[yaesu]

26. oh, suuuuure they do

sounds like a fox news commentary

[Flaleftist]

54. What are some interests that make working poor and working class people vote for Trump?

Maybe it's not an issue of people knowing their interests, but knowing which politicians are really in their corner.

[quickesst]

3. my theory is pretty straightforward....

.... And simple. In the case of trumpsters, racists, evangelicals, and the rest of that ilk, it is a simple matter of hating something or someone more than loving something or someone else.
Trumpsters hate liberals more than they love conservatives. Racists hate people of color more than they love their own race, and truth be known, evangelicals hate the gay community, people of color, and the overall liberal ideology more than they love God. Of course there will be denial and of course there are exceptions to the rule, but this is my general opinion as to why people vote against their own interest.

[CaptYossarian]

22. It's how we're brought up.

The same parents who teach their kids how to hate people they've never met also subscribe to the fallacy that Democrats only raise taxes.

When Dems raise taxes, it's because Repubs have spent like a drunken sailor (*COUGH-Pentagon-COUGH*). The Dems are more responsible because their desire is to balance the budget.

The Repubs cut social programs because it will hurt the same people they hate (except there are more white people on Welfare than any other group). But they will then give a blank check to Defense to spend more than what was cut to help people.

These games have been happening since FDR's (D) New Deal was passed to help the poor people created by the Hoover (R) years.

[quickesst]

31. it is by far....

.....the most bizarre and illogical thought process I have ever encountered by people who have been deemed not mentally challenged.

[CaptYossarian]

46. Another poster said these vermin hated more than they loved.

They didn't love their country, humanity, God or anything good that matters. They're brainwashed by a sociopath, thus becoming one themselves. They must have had a head start. Here comes Nature vs Nurture all over again.

Plus being fed for a generation by Talk Radio that their problems were caused by immigrants.

[gab13by13]

4. Maybe a lot of Americans,

are just bad people? They cling to a president who justifies their hatred.

[NJCher]

11. it's sad to say

but this is the conclusion to which I've come.

Wow, who would ever think we'd have a political party of hate and emotionalism, but that's what we have.

[iluvtennis]

19. + 1. nt

[rusty fender]

32. This

Racist shitheads vote for racist shitheads.

[kairos12]

5. Chickens voting for Colonel Sanders because they like his folksy accent and want to

drink a beer with him.

[Recursion]

6. They don't. I want to banish that phrase from our vocabulary

People vote for their interests. They just have vile, horrifying interests. Banish the patronizing framing and realize that a lot of our country are just garbage people.

[Demovictory9]

10. yep

[bermudat]

17. 👍🏾

[treestar]

28. this

To those obsessed by abortion, voting R is voting their interests. It's all they care about and the Rs will appoint the justices needed. That's their "interests." We could try to persuade them otherwise, but in the meantime, they are indeed voting their interests.

[dchill]

30. This, exactly.

[paleotn]

37. No such thing.

Hatred is taught. It's not ingrained in our DNA. Evilgelical children are taught from a young age to have vile, horrifying interests, and to hate those policies that would actually benefit them. It's a pervasive form of child abuse.

[Recursion]

44. That doesn't impact my point

They don't have "secret" interests that we understand better than they do, however they got them. They vote for the things they want, like everyone else.

[paleotn]

45. And they want those things....

because their taught to want those things, even if it's counter to their actual well being. They weren't born stupid. They are conned into acting stupid, no different than anyone else in a destructive cult. The interests we speak of aren't secret at all. They're as plain as the noses on our faces, freedom, opportunity for all, fairness, et al, yet propaganda blinds them. And yes, rational people do know what's better for them just like we knew what was better for the members of the Branch Davidians and it sure as shit wasn't David Koresh.

[Recursion]

48. Which doesn't matter

We're all the product of our experiences, sure.

[GeorgeGist]

53. Stupid people are...

S T U P I D.

[Flaleftist]

55. Sometimes they are foolish and misinformed.

They actually are voting against their interests and don't realize it.

I can give you one example. A friend of my wife is a single mother living at her mom's house. She depends on SNAP and Medicaid. She works part-time at a fast food restaurant and she supports Trump because she thinks he is good for the economy. She thinks he is the reason her employer have her a raise. She has zero savings, so not even stocks going up helps her. I do not think she is a racist.

[VOX]

68. They certainly do vote against their own best economic interest.

And it was never better illustrated than in Thomas Frank’s 2005 acclaimed book, “What’s the Matter with Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America.”

Brief book description:
“What's the Matter with Kansas?” unravels the great political mystery of our day: Why do so many Americans vote against their economic and social interests?

With his acclaimed wit and acuity, Thomas Frank answers the riddle by examining his home state, Kansas— a place once famous for its radicalism that now ranks among the nation's most eager participants in the culture wars. Charting what he calls the "thirty-year backlash"—the popular revolt against a supposedly liberal establishment— Frank reveals how conservatism, once a marker of class privilege, became the creed of millions of ordinary Americans.

A brilliant analysis, “What's the Matter with Kansas?” is a vivid portrait of an upside-down world where blue-collar patriots recite the Pledge while they strangle their life chances; where small farmers cast their votes for a Wall Street order that will eventually push them off their land; and where a group of frat boys, lawyers, and CEOs has managed to convince the country that it speaks on behalf of the People.

[rso]

8. Best interests

Donnie hates the same people that they do, and he gives them free rein to express their insecurities and hatred. I think LBJ said it best when he made the point that if you make the lowest white person feel like he is better than the highest black person, he’ll follow you and even let you pick his pockets (paraphrase, not an exact quote).

[CaptYossarian]

23. So there aren't good people on both sides? You'd better tell what's his name.

[dlk]

9. Sadly, some people require someone to hate

It’s their hatred that wins out over their best interests.

[Kaleva]

12. Just because people vote against OUR best interests doesn't mean they are voting aginst their own

[CaptYossarian]

24. You mean when farmers and outdoorsmen vote for those bribed by polluters

and when women and minorities vote for a misogynist/xenophobe. And when "religious" people vote for an adulterer who kidnaps brown children and babies? And when military personnel vote for a guy who blows our biggest enemy since 1945?

There must be some hypocrisy angle somewhere.

[Kaleva]

33. Many of the "religious" right have always been hypocritical

They follow and support leaders who live in wealth and some of whom are adulterers. Trump is a flim-flam man just like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Franklin Graham, Ted Haggard (famous for a dildo modeled after his own penis), Jerry Falwell Jr and others.

[CaptYossarian]

47. Haggard was regularly meeting a male prostitute at a Colorado motel.

Swag asked his hooker to bring her 9-year old daughter for their next encounter. She instead went public.

[yaesu]

29. most, the largest majority of tRump voters are people who will be harmed by fascism

so they are either really really stupid or suicidal

[Kaleva]

35. You and I will be hurt but not them. They are eager for it.

[paleotn]

39. Actually, I won't....

although I'd suffer more than Susie Sarandon, I'll be impacted far, far less than the white, HS educated or less, blue collar class. The folks who flock to IQ45 in droves. They will continue to molder in low paying jobs and limited benefits, paying far more of their share in taxes for services they never use, while the educated and highly trained find a place in this economy and pay less in taxes than we morally should. My problem is, I have this distinct love of fairness, equity, equality and utilitarianism. Thus, I vote against my own short term interests for what's morally right and best for all of us in the long run.

[Kaleva]

51. Most progressives have empathy for others. When they hurt, we hurt.

I find it very hurtful when children are the victims of gun violence or just because the gun wasn't properly secured. I think of a probable Trump supporter whose 3 year old was killed when the child found a gun in the closet of a family friend who was staying over. The father stressed that guns were not to blame.

Trump supporters, regardless of financial situation or level of education, would like to see a women's right to chose heavily restricted or even banned.

"The Mythology Of Trump’s ‘Working Class’ Support
His voters are better off economically compared with most Americans."

"The median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000, based on estimates derived from exit polls and Census Bureau data. That’s lower than the $91,000 median for Kasich voters. But it’s well above the national median household income of about $56,000. It’s also higher than the median income for Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders supporters, which is around $61,000 for both."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/

"Among people who said they voted for Trump in the general election, 35 percent had household incomes under $50,000 per year (the figure was also 35 percent among non-Hispanic whites), almost exactly the percentage in NBC’s March 2016 survey. Trump’s voters weren’t overwhelmingly poor. In the general election, like the primary, about two thirds of Trump supporters came from the better-off half of the economy."

https://www.nationalmemo.com/data-show-most-trump-voters-were-middle-income-not-working-class/?cn-reloaded=1

[hughee99]

42. Surely you've been around here long enough to know that for many DUers

“Our” best interests is everyone’s best interests. People who don’t agree just value the wrong things. I’ve always been suspect of the political strategy of telling voters they have the wrong priorities, though. I don’t think it’s been effective.

[CaptYossarian]

49. We're Democrats. The root word "Demos" is Greek for People.

Republicans naturally mean you put the Republic (America) first over people. Do you see the problem there?

We're doing double-duty.

[hughee99]

50. So because of the name someone picked for the party more than

150 years ago, it means our opinion must be the right one for everyone? Do you see the problem with that argument?

[CaptYossarian]

52. I was referring to us caring about ALL people, thus protecting the social safety nets.

My problem is with the animal symbols. We're the jackass because the Repubs started out as the liberal party, while we were the jerks then. Thanks, Thomas Nast. Now we're screwed forever.

[Locrian]

15. they actually vote to "hurt/punish" the other side

Aside from the racism, etc...

There's a "game science" trend here: people will consciously (or sub-consciously) act in opposition to their situation to "punish" something they don't think is "right"

So all the "stick it to the libtards" etc is part of what's going on. Usually happens after they feel like they've been abandoned, etc, and have developed "other" group support systems (ie religion, fox news, racism, etc).

[hadEnuf]

16. Propaganda and control of the media.

It's been done effectively several times in history.

[Kaleva]

27. For propaganda to work, you need a receptive audience.

Most every one here at DU could listen to Rush every day for a year and that wouldn't turn us into Trump supporters.

[paleotn]

36. Exactly. Old, rather nefarious saying in the south....

"if you're not better than a black person, who are you better than?" That's a rough spot where right wing propaganda can take hold. No different really than German prejudice against Jews in the 20's and 30's.

[hadEnuf]

56. We've had 30 years of unchecked, non-stop right wing propaganda

bombarding the airwaves. That's a bit more than just having a receptive audience. A good part of an entire generation has been brainwashed with the right wing indoctrination propaganda.

The fact that a thing like Trump has even been allowed in office supports that.

[Kaleva]

57. And yet it's had no effect on us because we are not receptive to it.

Fox and right wing radio does well because there already was an audience that wanted their world view reinforced.

[hadEnuf]

58. Most are not as tuned-in to politics as people on DU.

Fox and right wing radio are sold as mainstream and legitimate. Their tabloid format also attracts the apathetic and uninformed people.

The right also got the Fairness Doctrine repealed and along with media deregulation they were able to buy large parts of the media up.

It's more like a captive audience than a receptive one.

[Kaleva]

59. Millions who voted for Hillary are not as tuned into politics like we at DU are.

These people vote Dem election after election.

[hadEnuf]

60. Do you think that right wing media has had no effect in swaying people?

[Kaleva]

61. Who listens to or watches right wing media but right wingers?

How many hours a week to you spend watching Fox & Friends or listening to Rush?

[hadEnuf]

62. So I take it you think right wing media has had no effect

as a whole. Interesting. That leaves out the people in the swayable middle though.

[Kaleva]

63. what percentage of the swayable middle watches Fox or listens to RW radio?

[hadEnuf]

65. What percentage doesn't? Sounds like a questions for the pollsters don't you think?

But it's hard to believe that the RW has been pouring countless millions into buying up the media only to preach lies and slanted truths to their own unswayable supporters.

[Kaleva]

66. They aren't pouring millions into it. They are making millions off of it.

The media is a profit oriented business and they put out what sells. Fox slants the news in such a way that it attracts a sizeable audience and the bigger the audience, the more they can charge advertisers which means more profit.

Liberals make up the smallest section of voters. Moderates and conservatives are essentially tied according to this Gallup article:

"WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans' assessment of their political ideology was unchanged in 2018 compared with the year prior when 35% on average described themselves as conservative, 35% as moderate and 26% as liberal. "

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245813/leans-conservative-liberals-keep-recent-gains.aspx

Rush and other RW radio hosts do not do what they do for free. They do it to make money and to make as much as they can. They know much of their audience is composed of Trump supporters so they are Trump supporters to. If they weren't, they'd lose listeners and then couldn't charge as much for advertising and that means less money for them

[hadEnuf]

67. That's only part of the story.

Dated articles, but it makes the point:

...."In 1999, following the passage of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, more than 25% of US Radio stations had been sold, with many more being sold each day. As of 2011, Clear Channel Communications (now iHeartMedia), an industry giant owns over 800 radio stations across the United States"....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_talk_radio



"Sinclair, the pro-Trump, conservative company taking over local news, explained"

....A recent paper by Emory University political scientists Gregory Martin and Josh McCrain found that when Sinclair buys a local station, its local news program begin to cover more national and less local politics, the coverage becomes more conservative, and viewership actually falls — suggesting that the rightward tilt isn’t enacted as a strategy to win more viewers but as part of a persuasion effort....


https://www.vox.com/2018/4/3/17180020/sinclair-broadcast-group-conservative-trump-david-smith-local-news-tv-affiliate


Propaganda and control of the media.

[Kaleva]

71. It's often wise to read the source rather then just an interpertation of the source.

An excerpt from the study conducted by Emory University political scientists Gregory Martin and Josh McCrain

"On the other hand, it is also possible that declines in local coverage are primarily demand-rather than supply-driven. In an age of increasing nationalization of elections (Hopkins,2018; Abramowitz and Webster, 2016; Jacobson, 2015), dedicated coverage of local politics may no longer be as valuable to citizens as it once was. The more closely do local elected officials’ positions align with those of their national party, the more does information about national party leaders suffice for most readers’ purposes and the less incremental value is there in coverage of local figures. The long-term decline in local coverage may thus simply reflect adaptation by the news industry as a whole to changes in audience tastes for political information. "

http://joshuamccrain.com/localnews.pdf

And here's another interesting tidbit from the study:

"The cost efficiencies of consolidating news production appear to be large enough to make up for net losses in viewership it induces. "

So even if their is a decline in viewership, the savings in costs more then makes up for it and there is greater profit.

Again, I stress the importance of reading the actual source oneself rather then relying on someone else's biased interpretation of it.

[hadEnuf]

72. The article is not completely conclusive either way, which the posted quote points out.

That leaves it open for interpretation. Whether or not RW media is making money from what they do does not negate the fact that they are doing so by spreading partisan political disinformation and outright lies disguised as legitimate news. They started out doing this and have now learned to profit from it.

I think the driving force started as partisan political manipulation of the media as an agenda; you seem to think it's more financial based.

Neither opinion is completely wrong, IMO.

[Kaleva]

73. Yellow journalism has been around since before the founding of our nation.

"I think the driving force started as partisan political manipulation of the media as an agenda; you seem to think it's more financial based.

Neither opinion is completely wrong, IMO."

I would agree with you. We are both not 100% correct but we are not entirely wrong either. I think we can agree that this is a gray area with some of what your say and some of what I say.

I enjoyed this debate and wish you well!

[hadEnuf]

74. Thank you and the same to you.

[paleotn]

34. Down south where I grew up...

and spent most of my adult life, the driving factors for many in voting against their own interests are the two R's. Religion and racism. They're fed a pervasive line of bullshit from the cradle...

- Old prejudices and hatreds for immigrants, other races, Catholics, Jews, LGTBQ folks, or anyone not exactly like them exist for good, biblical reasons
- Scripture is to be taken literally and anyone who considers it allegorical in any way not authorized by the priestly elite is a heretic bound for hell.
- The rich are inherently good or they wouldn't be "blessed" by God and the lower classes are bound by God to follow them.
- Likewise, the poor are poor due to their own moral failings.

Deep in their hearts, the don't believe in democracy or equality and would live happy if quite miserable lives in theocratic dictatorship, just as long as they're allowed to hate who they're trained to hate.

[Garrett78]

40. Whenever people talk of voting against their interests, they leave out the word "economic."

They assume that only economic interests matter. But people can vote *for* their (perceived) social/cultural interests, which can override their economic interests (or, more likely, they convince themselves that those social/cultural interests equate to their economic interests).

In other words, it's about racism (including xenophobia) and a general ignorance.

[Duppers]

41. K & R whole thread.

Great posts.

[scarytomcat]

43. we can be so easily misled

cults

[Esperanto.Mark]

64. We learn facts to avoid making the same mistakes

at least some do...

[Humanist_Activist]

69. Most of trump's support came from Upper Middle Class white people...

i.e. the "professional class" and middle management. Along with, sad to say, quite a few union members. They voted that way because they live in their white bubbles and don't want them to burst.

These are people who vote against Right-to-work in their state while voting in politicians(not just Trump) who attempt to override the results of their vote. Its frustrating and infuriating.

[ooky]

70. Good one.

[ck4829]

75. K&R

[rainin]

76. I don't understand the disagreement in this thread with this assertion.

If republicans wanted what republicans are doing then why all the lying? Republicans only want what they're being sold, not what they're been given. Hence, they are voting against their own interest.