General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy two Articles are a brilliant idea!
Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:36 PM - Edit history (1)
Both require a minimal number of witnesses. Abuse of power will only require examples. Whereas, obstruction of Congress will require a debate about the Constitution and how much power should be in the hands of Congress and how much power should be in the hands of the Executive. It is a debate that can only help our country in the long run, in my opinion.
For example, obstruction of Justice would require witnesses and the House does not wish for the Senate to be a circus, just a representative body for the American people. Much of it can be umbrellaed under abuse of power.
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)While I would have preferred four, I have 100% confidence in the House leadership's insights and abilities. I am very happy today.
Catherine Vincent
(34,486 posts)Didn't Clinton get 4?
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)put up four for the vote, and two were rejected by the full House. Thus, two went to the Senate for trial.
Catherine Vincent
(34,486 posts)Towlie
(5,324 posts)Democrats are in effect conceding that all of the other accusations they've made against Trump are false and these two articles are all they have. That's what Trump is claiming now and that claim sounds frighteningly compelling. Once the Republicans dispose of those two accusations Democrats will have nothing.
No, this is the only chance they'll get and they need to put everything they have into it. Every impeachable transgression that Trump has committed must be included in those articles of impeachment.
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)I should start by noting my older son and I debate this no less than four times per week. He agrees with your opinion. (I should also note that, as a result of Irish heredity an environmental influences from growing up within my family of origin, I debated my doctor today, saying the Democrats needed to include everything. Arguing for little to no reason was a sign of affection growing up.)
It is, of course, the only chance we will get in Trump's first term. I'm not sure if this has been reported in the news yet, but there are those in the Democratic Party's leadership who have considered the possibility of four related events in 2020: first, if Trump is found not guilty by the Senate early in the year, second, he is somehow re-elected, and third, the Democrats re-take the Senate, and lastly, the federal courts continue to hold that people like McGahn have to testify, we may see Impeachment #2 in a theater near us in 2021.
MartyTheGreek
(565 posts)I think more charges are going to come out or leak out that will only paint a picture in more vivid detail. The public needs to see that in-mass and now over time that Trump is not good for our country. Trump will have an albatross of impeachment over his throne in the run up to 2020. And, an impeachment by a Democratic congress that dutifully conducted the impeachment charges to uphold it's constitutional duties. In doing so, Democrats retain the legal and moral grounds for upholding democracy. I see it at a strategic political slow bleed until then.
H2O Man, Did you ever box Jimmy Scanlon from Pittsburgh back in the 60's?
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)I didn't box Jimmy Scanlon. But you've caught my interest with that name. I'm wondering if he is the grandson of a Pittsburgh fighter with the same name, who fought between 1906 and 1922? In that era, my great uncle (same name as me) fought around the northeast, including in Pittsburgh. Also, he trained and managed Bucky Lawless -- after beating Bucky in an upstate NY fight -- and that included Bucky's fights in Pittsburgh. Bucky fought against 14 world champions of various weight classes in his career.
Records from that era are frequently incomplete. I'm sure that this Jimmy Scanlon had a lot more fights than was recorded, as did so many fighters up until the 1930s. Even the great Carmen Basilio had 5 or 6 fights that I can document that aren't on his "official" record -- promoted by my great uncle. For that matter, five of the great Rocky Marciano's fights aren't on his official record .....they were his loses, that his manage removed!
Do you know the Jimmy Scanlon from the 1960s?
mopinko
(70,067 posts)smart.
tho it is a damn sad day in american where they have to strategize around lying "leaders", corrupt media, disinfo, trolls and idiot america.
barbtries
(28,787 posts)because i really wanted them to throw the book at him. the weight of the evidence of all that he has done, all the impeachable acts he has committed, i thought would go a ways toward turning some people toward the truth of the matter.
I'm not convinced you're right. But the die is cast so I hope you are.
spanone
(135,802 posts)they will lie.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Dopers_Greed
(2,640 posts)They need to only pursue what they can absolutely nail him for.
If he's found "not guilty" on even one count, he'll scream "TOTAL EXONERATION".
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)They will use the extra charge as extra "evidence" that he has been totally exonerated.
Trump will be proclaiming "double exonerated!"
(Sadly, we already know what the verdict will be)
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)But don't be surprised if the Senate's version of debate is different than yours.
In fact, I'm not even sure if debate is required. It may simply be presented and then voted on. They did this with AOC's new green dream bill for instance and effectively killed it.
For sure the Senate side will add an extra week on impeachment in the news. But I'm not sure that the second charge will add more than a few hours.
for example, think about criminal trials where there are tons of counts. Those counts don't add much length to the trial, but they do add additional time in the jury box.
Hope you are right.
Amishman
(5,554 posts)Takes some of the punch out of this and wastes an opportunity to further delegitimize him.
dajoki
(10,678 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)while the two they filed already have witnesses--no court delays.
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... no matter what the Articles say. Look at all the clowns.
IronLionZion
(45,403 posts)EndlessWire
(6,477 posts)kentuck
(111,069 posts)The Senate subpoenas Mulvaney or Pompeo and Trump refuses to let them testify?
Since one of the Articles will be "Obstruction of Congress" and the Senate is one of the branches of Congress, how would they react if they are obstructed by Donald Trump??
Could they simply ignore it?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)But it'll look incredibly bad for them.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)If I were Nancy, I'd file these two, then file MORE articles of impeachment in a few weeks or maybe a couple of months - that's actually a brilliant way to keep the MAGAts reeling.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)If more news comes out about emoluments, who knows?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And one fully within the House's control.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)Because it is about their duties under the Constitution. Of course, that is probably not their primary concern?
Obstruction of Justice is easier for them to sell as just partisan politics, in my opinion.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's also much easier to prove and doesn't require a lot of outside evidence or witnesses.
Essentially, they're saying he obstructed justice by refusing to comply with Congress.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)Those two Articles can cover a lot of territory.
Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)John Dean's suggested strategy is to sit on these while gathering evidence that will drive more hearings and move public opinion to critical mass. When McConnell sees that his majority is endangered, he will drop Trump into the lake of fire.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)With Republicans not having to worry about being primaried by the nutjobs in the base, some attitudes will shift, and you'll see the endangered ones distancing themselves from Trump as much as possible.
Then the second impeachment should be our October Surprise...
BannonsLiver
(16,342 posts)That tells me it was the right move.
Sorry.. ".. the doom addicts.. " omg I don't why I think that's so funny.. probably because I know exactly what you mean!
Some barometer, eh?
calimary
(81,179 posts)Keep. It. Simple, Stupid.
Sure, Id love to see a dozen Articles of Impeachment. Id love 100 of em! Or thousands - one for every lie hes told to hoodwink America and CHEAT his way to a win.
But this is okay. Ill take two. Im okay with it.
Whatever works.
Whatever gets us there!
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Note: Were going to be bummers this morning. Yes, we are very happy to see that there are articles of impeachment. But we are enormously frustrated that they dont go further. We do not understand why obstruction of justice was left out. We dont understand why Richard Neal was standing on the dais when hes done exactly jack shit to hold Trump accountable. And we sure as hell dont understand how a party holding these cards could still be so afraid that theyre going to step on their own impeachment press conference with another one an hour later that gives Trump a win on one of his signature campaign promises. So no, were not celebrating. We hope to be back to our normally sunny selves tomorrow. Have a great Tuesday, everybody.
BannonsLiver
(16,342 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Adam Julian Parkhomenko (born October 22, 1985) is an American political strategist and organizer who served as National Field Director for the Democratic National Committee in 2016.[1] He was the co-founder and executive director of Ready for Hillary, a super PAC established to persuade Hillary Clinton to run for the presidency of the United States in 2016.[2][3][4] In the 2017 party election, Parkhomenko was a candidate for Vice Chair of the Democratic National Committee.[5]
BannonsLiver
(16,342 posts)Im not sure Id take someone seriously who uses the phrase jack shit. Its fine for posters here to use, but otherwise...
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)@adamparkhomento
BannonsLiver
(16,342 posts)mountain grammy
(26,605 posts)And hes right, in my opinion.
a kennedy
(29,642 posts)MartyTheGreek
(565 posts)Two charges that you really can't deny and Trump sycophants can't say that Pelosi did this out of hate. So that will peel away some Trump fans and no doubt more things are going to come out from now till November so Trump is basically in check. I see this as a slow bleed as more news comes out in the following months. After he's impeached in the House, how many more cockroaches will want to scurry out to be on the right side of history?
Cognitive dissonance is a bitch to break, but with eleven months to go, maybe some truth can be hammered into the wing nuts heads so we can peel even more away. Now we're on higher ground which we knew we were and in a better position to be heard and felt!
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)... that kGOP will acK right.
Republicans can call all the witness's they want to call and they will !!!
kentuck
(111,069 posts)There is no VP to break a tie.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)kentuck
(111,069 posts)It could be three or four we hardly ever hear from?
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)... said, I'm losing hope that Republicans want anything to do with democracy any longer.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Since there is no tie to break If it's 50-50, he's acquitted. If 2/3 of the Senate doesn't vote to convict, it doesn't matter how many votes there are on the other side.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)He will not be happy if four Repubs vote with the Democrats.
Good to know he is acquitted with a 50/50 vote.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)He's acquitted with anything less than 67 senators voting to convict. Even if no one votes to acquit - for example if 66 senators voted to convict and the other 34 senators abstained from voting, he'd still be acquitted.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Just as bribery would open up the Biden bs and give Republicans a chance to introduce all manner of bs, including trying to haul in the Bidens to testify.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)Especially Pelosi and Schiff.
What happens if Mitch decides to subpoena Mulvaney and Trump refuses to let him testify because he cannot handle the truth. That would be Obstruction of Congress.
How would Republicans vote on that Article? It would be interesting.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)... constantly during his 3 impeachment trials.
Collins et al are just like the rest of them; not interested in this democracy thing
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But I doubt they can get 51 votes to overrule an evidentiary ruling by the conservative Chief Justice of the United States. And if they get the votes nd try to force them to appear, it will be pretty clear that this is a circus.
He'll probably be acquitted anyway, but if they do it this way, they'll have a lot of trouble in 2020. And Mitch does NOT want to lose his majority.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Simplicity is one key in making a public case.
bucolic_frolic
(43,115 posts)SCOTUS ruled long ago that yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater was not a protected type of free speech, and some Justice or another said he couldn't define pornography, but he knew it when he saw it.
You don't need to think twice about the crook in the White House, unless you're arguing semantics or wondering how someone with tons of money sports a history of multiple bankruptcies and invisible tax returns.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Dumpster's can witness the definition of "Abuse of Power" to death...and will.
Obstruction of Congress....I'll bet you they have 50 legal scholars ready to testify that The House has a way to compel testimony...the Courts.. and that the House didn't pursue their options..,,thus trying to eliminate the 3 co-equal Branch idea.
"House does not wish for the Senate to be a circus, just a representative body for the American people."
That's not the role of the Senate...that's the role of the House...that's why Impeachment is done in the House...It's why it called The House of Representatives.
Regardless....the Senate will do what they've done.. like they did during the Clinton and Johnson deals... yeah...um no..Pass.
It's all about election day...that's Dumpster removal day