For those critical of Art/History Degrees...

[tonedevil]

Frequently it is said that pursuing a liberal arts or fine arts degree is a waste of time because it will not likely result in gainfull employment. I hope that even if one only views a college degree as a way to maximize earning potential they can still see some value in exposure to art and literature. I present this fable to stir some thought about not just how one may make a living, but why might they want to.

Once upon a time, there was a very industrious ant and a frivolous grasshopper. They lived near each other in a fine meadow. Everyday the ant would venture from his nest and collect food to save for the winter. While he made his rounds he would hear the beautiful music the grasshopper was playing on his fiddle. The ant would continually admonish the grasshopper "you must gather food for winter will be upon us and food will be scarce". The grasshopper would answer "I have always found enough and without my music the world would be so dreary".

The winter did come and as the ant had foretold there was not a morsel of food to be found. Since he had no stores the grasshopper soon grew hungry. Having gathered and saved all summer and fall the ant had larders a brimming, but when the grasshopper came asking for some small sustenance the ant briskly reminded the grasshopper of his laziness when there was food to collect and refused to assist the grasshopper. Soon the grasshopper perished from his hunger.

That is the part of the story everyone know, but what happened the following year is just as important.

In the spring the ant emerged from his nest prepared to gather food to save for next winter as before. What he found as he toiled was the air was silent unlike when he had been gathering last year. The silence held no comfort and no joy. As the ant worked he began to feel a profound sadness and before long he laid down and died of a broken heart.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. I got a degree in music. Never made any money from it, and ended up in other lines of work,

but if I had to do it over again I'd probably do it again.

[tonedevil]

5. I eventually got an AA..

in accounting from Heald, so I'm unsure of its validity, not pursuing college is a regret for me. My work has been in computers for about 30 years and I have worked with a lot of people with music and English degrees that make more than I and are qualified for better positions due to educational requirements. It makes me sad to see parents force their children into majors they have little interest in because the parent has made a financial calculation. It seems the children drop out as often as not.

[soldierant]

34. Music is not an easy degree.

In many schools the requirements, in terms of credits, are second only to those for pre-med. And much of the content of those credits is highly analytical. In fact, both sides of the brain are exercised. Rigorously.

And I'm pretty sure the same applies to all the arts.

[TheBlackAdder]

55. Musicians are one of the top pics for computer programmng positions.

.

There is a correlation between the way a musician's brain operates and multi-dimensional thought needed for program design.

.

[choie]

58. Exactly the same with me, Velveteen..

Wouldn’t change my education in music for the world!

[no_hypocrisy]

59. Music Major checking in.

I went on to get an MA in elementary education and a JD from a law school.

Music helped me immeasurably by the techniques of listening to the space between the notes, to the larger composition, and the comprehensive analysis of the pieces, both harmonically and counterpoint.

I would argue that music is one of the two hardest subjects to master in college, provided that your professors demand exceptional technique and expect you to be more than prepared for class. The rest is up to you.

BTW, the four years I had in liberal arts prepared me to pursue whatever interest I had postgraduate. I studied German, Italian, Spanish, English Literature, European Civilization, Theater History, Creative Writing, et al. I doubt that most students nowadays can compare their education with that of mine.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

60. I got a J.D., too, but music is so analytical that I have to think it helped.

Music theory, especially advanced harmony and counterpoint, was one of the most difficult things I ever studied, at least until I had to take the federal courts course in law school.

[no_hypocrisy]

61. I hear you.

I was composing song cycles and rondos as part of daily class assignments. And I can still analyze four-voice harmonies including the inverted chords. And if I listen to classical music on the radio by chance, more often than not, I can identify the piece, its composer and where in the sonata-allegro format (exposition, first theme, etc.) I am listening.

I would like to believe that the law school accepted my application due to my former life as a music major.

[Hekate]

63. I know more than one computer programmer/analyst with a music degree...

It seems odd now that there are degree specialties in programming, but there was a time when that was not the case. I started dating the man who became my husband about 40 years ago, and the circle of friends/co-workers he introduced me to came from a broad array of the Liberal Arts. Lucky me! because that's my world.

My husband's first degree was in philosophy, which required clases in logic. One woman had taught Latin in high school. Then there were the music majors.

All these disciplines require analytical ability and pattern recognition. Having gone that route gave all those programmers a much broader and richer worldview than the average Engineering major.

[Corgigal]

2. My son

has a degree in history.

I feel comfort in his ability to see patterns in human conduct, especially now. He works for the state civil rights division for the state. It’s not an easy degree, and it’s really about how to learn how to think, not history.

At least that’s what his professor told him, and he told me.

[tonedevil]

8. I'm heartened to hear...

that position is being held by someone with an understanding of history. Those who don't understand history being doomed to repeat it is real to me.

[Happy Hoosier]

46. Quite true, I think.

Most "liberal arts" degree are about learning to be critical thinkers: to question base assumptions, evaluate fact claims, and examine context. Most people never question their own assumptions, or examine their own belief systems. By and large, most people decide what the desired outcome is and then seek evidence to support it, and ignore evidence that contradicts it. A SUCCESSFUL liberal arts graduate learns to do all these things, and if they can apply them, they become very valuable to employers.

[murielm99]

3. Education is not purely about

earning a living.

We should not abandon learning about music, art, anthropology or anything else. Our world would be a poorer place if we studied only the practical. Why have a civilization at all if we abandon those things?

I am sorry to see even one philistine on DU.

Thanks for the OP.

[tonedevil]

9. Exactly. /nt

[customerserviceguy]

11. If that's the case

then do it on your earnings from another job, and don't take out student loans to pay for it, thinking that the money to repay it will come from some magic place.

If students had to meet half the qualifications for a person trying to start out with a business loan, there wouldn't be so many student loans.

[murielm99]

17. There would not be so many student loans if we

reformed our way of paying for college.

It would be a very dangerous and undemocratic approach to education if we told people what to study and what fields we would support for study.

My daughter had a teacher who was here on an exchange program. The teacher grew up in East Germany. She was good at languages, so they made her study languages. She learned Russian and some other language. She would have chosen music, if she had been given the choice.

What a grim world this would be if it was all business and how to get ahead financially. Isn't that what many DU members complain about? Haven't the oligarchs and republicans cornered the market on that type of thinking? I am happy that there is a place for the liberal arts in our world. I am happy that there is room for all types of talent, and for areas of study that teach people how to think rather than thinking only about the bottom line.

And business loans have nothing to do with it. You are comparing apples and oranges.

We have a business man in the White House. We have had business men running other areas of government, and it has not worked out well. We had a business man as governor of Illinois, and he very nearly ruined our state. There are very good reason to let business men run businesses, not government, not arts programs, not education. I have a big problem with putting business men on pedestals.

[customerserviceguy]

24. I'm not advocating

banishing the teaching of art and history, but they're side dishes on what should be an education that prepares a person for a way to realistically make a living, that's all.

And that "business man" in the White House is just a performance artist who is a scammer. Comparing him to a plumber or an electrician who wants to get a business loan to offer competent, honest services to people is an insult to working people.

[stopdiggin]

38. I still think the idea of education as "job training" is a shallow pool

How about the idea that a "balanced" and well rounded education allows for the adaptability that it requires for people to move through several different jobs in their workspan? A technical grounding or set of skills ALSO doesn't prepare a person to negotiate the real world workplace. You mention a small contractor that wants to get a business loan -- imagine the difficulty if that person is truly one dimensional in their abilities? Just the fact that they are applying for a loan implies the need of host of other skills and abilities (math, literacy, networking, business plan, knowledge of rules, regulations and government requirements -- does the plan involve hiring employees? -- another huge set of skills and requirements !)

How do we prepare people to work in our State department? Where do we recruit for the CIA, or disaster preparedness, or emergency response, or refugee crisis, or the next bio/tech "whatever" boom, if all of our education is essentially boiled down to shop class, programming and CAD design?

[customerserviceguy]

51. When we get to

some "Star Trek" future, where everything is free, provided by machines running on solar energy (or whatever pollution-free method suits your fancy) and people have nothing to do but follow their hearts, then maybe that dream can come true. For now, we have student loans and lifestyles to pay for.

As far as State department jobs, there have never been anywhere near enough of them for the graduates in the disciplines that lead to those occupations. The same can be said of most other liberal arts degree programs.

Being as a four year degree in "something" doesn't almost automatically lead to a job these days, we have to get practical when it comes to education. And educating people should rely more on online courses that are priced according to the cost of providing them. My basic classes from the 1970's were pretty much like watching TV, there's no real reason to charge hundreds of dollars for the credits needed to complete them.

[murielm99]

44. I don't think you know the difference between

education and job training. That is fairly common. One of the first essays I read in college was about that very argument.

[customerserviceguy]

50. Clearly

something self-serving that your college handed you to justify the time and expense of the program you were embarking on.

Once upon a time, there was a job for most every college graduate, that's just not the case anymore. I dropped out after two years of university, and went to work with people who had four year degrees in economics and art history. We all got paid the same money for the same job, and that was in the Seventies.

[murielm99]

57. You dropped out?

Surprise surprise.

Your hostility is getting boring. Bye.

[customerserviceguy]

66. I'd be hostile

if I had double the amount of student loans to pay off. But, in my mid-40's, I did go back to a community college and got an associate degree in computer network administration. It didn't get me a job either, but it did prove to future employers that I actually was not too old to learn something new. Good thing it didn't cost me anything out of pocket.

[LanternWaste]

65. Not too surprised the market-motive outweighs actual education in far too many cases.

But I get it... we often rationalize our failures as some odd form of economic parity.

[customerserviceguy]

67. Who was the failure?

Me, or someone who spent twice as long in higher education than I did, with way more debt to pay off?

We did the same job and got the same pay. And I never regretted not finishing college to get a bachelor's degree. And, nothing stopped me from reading on my own, believe me, you'd want me on your trivia team.

[murielm99]

68. I am sad that you think education

is always about money.

I appreciate the arts. I appreciate the people who spend their lives studying in those areas to bring us culture and enjoyment.

Not everyone does what they do to earn a living. You just refuse to see that.

I feel sorry for you.

[customerserviceguy]

69. Education is not all about money

but paying off a student loan is exactly about that. Yes, I know that some candidates are in favor of eliminating present and future student debt, but they'll never accomplish that. There are too many people unwilling to finance what they consider to be 4-6 years of extended adolescence.

[Wounded Bear]

37. Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire

Often attributed to Yeats, but also apparently opined by Plutarch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/education-is-not-the-filling-of-a-pail-but-the-lighting-of-a-fire-it-s-an-inspiring-quote-but-did-wb-yeats-say-it-1.1560192

[appalachiablue]

4. Right here, both & no regrets. It was hard, positions were few,

I had to work in another field for a while which turned out to be a very good thing, then went back to A & H. I wouldn't change a thing.

As John Adams wrote: "I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/33545.html

[tonedevil]

6. Thank you for the eye...

I have tried to make it less of a wall.

[appalachiablue]

7. Thank you! I really like the post, apropos for a Sunday too.

~~~~~~~ NO MUSIC, NO LIFE ~~~~~~~~~~

Caaravaggio "Living Paintings."

[demmiblue]

25. Nice! I will add a few:

Art is life!

[erronis]

27. Amazing, all. I had no idea I have been missing so much for so long.

Sitting at a keyboard for 50 years (truly) and admiring the cleverness of algorithms and programs.

Somewhat OT. Have you seen the book "Overstory"? It is a wonderful melding of nature, humanity, and even computers.

[demmiblue]

28. I haven't read it.

I remember reading wonderful things about the book, but forgot about it (I think I pinned it to a Pinterest board some time back). Thanks for the reminder!

[appalachiablue]

33. Excellent, thanks for posting these art videos

[tonedevil]

41. Wow...

Thanks.

[murielm99]

12. Thank you.

I was thinking about that quote last night when I wanted to answer someone who was criticizing people who studied "non-practical" subjects.

It was getting late, and I gave up looking for it. I needed to sleep.

[appalachiablue]

14. It is a great quote by Adams. I must make a hand written copy today

to have on hand! The art, humanities and creativity are essential to life as we know.

[Humanist_Activist]

10. You know, I'm a strong believer that we should have free K-16 education, regardless of any major...

you choose.

In this capitalistic system, education for education's sake is verboten, for it can make you think for yourself, the capitalists would much rather we dedicated our higher education into joining the rat race and be useful tools for them to earn more capital.

[appalachiablue]

15. Great post, so true amen!

[tonedevil]

19. I'm with you...

educating young people helps the already adult population enough that we all should want to invest.

[hunter]

43. Classrooms and teachers don't cost much.

Why wouldn't we do that?

It's because educated people are more like cats than sheep.

[Beringia]

13. Juan Felipe Herrera, US poet laureate tells the story of a person he knew

who wanted to be a poet, but thought he should get PhD and he chose the PhD and later committed suicide. Story of how someone should follow their true passion.


Juan's story of his acquaintance who committed suicide at 19:37 mark.

[Ohiogal]

16. Thank you for that inspirational story.

I have a BA in Fine Arts and have heard a lifetime of snark about how Ill always be semi-poor my whole life.

I agree with the above poster who said education isn’t always about how much $ you can earn.

I did work as a graphic artist for 10 years before my life took other twists and turns, but I do not regret earning my Art degree for one second.

[treestar]

18. College was originally to learn to think

and to understand culture.

When it became job training ground, it should have been discontinued. We should make the employers/capitalists do the job training that they need to get rich. Why do we do it for them? They have us believing we should prepare ourselves to be good enough for them.

[Merlot]

64. College for learning to think and reason, vocational schools for job training.

[shanti]

20. A liberal arts degree

works for many jobs at the entry level, when all you need is the paper. My oldest son has a History degree and was planning to be a teacher, but that didn't pan out. He applied with the Feds and they hired him. It works that way for lots of government jobs. A degree of any kind teaches one how to THINK.

[Beringia]

21. Teaches you to think

Not a degree in biology. I may have picked up a couple of things from an evolutionary biologist, but mostly it was memorization.

[shanti]

22. Well

you had to take your gen ed classes too, right? Like philosophy, psychology, humanities, etc. By the time you reach your major classes, you should have learned how to think by then.

[Beringia]

23. Honestly I don't think so

It was about learning for the test. Also finding out what is easy for me and what is not. I learned a little about drawing, after falling in love with art and taking many drawing and painting classes.

[Skittles]

45. LOL

I work with Trump humpers who have college degrees.

[shanti]

56. OK

You all are tearing apart my argument, lol!

[Raftergirl]

26. Both my

husband and I majored in a liberal arts subject, but we both went to graduate school after. I have an MPP (Masters of Public Policy) and he has a MPA (Public Administration.)

Kid majored in Politics and minored in History at a top 20 Liberal Arts college. He was hired right out of college by a Fortune 200 company for their Exec management trading program. They don’t want undergraduate Business majors - they want employees who are smart, have excellent written and verbal communications skills and critical thinking skills.

He left that company after 1 1/2 years and is now at a start up tech firm doing company growth analytics. He’s had 3 promotions since he’s been there (2 yrs next month.) They are also paying up front 100% of his tuition to get his Executive MBA.

Company will likely go public in the next two years and he has stock.

I am a huge believer in a liberal arts education. If one wants to specialize, that is what graduate school is for.

[LudwigPastorius]

29. That's not the way I heard it.

"...the ant briskly reminded the grasshopper of his laziness when there was food to collect and refused to assist the grasshopper. So, the grasshopper moved to the city, where he got a six-night-a-week quintet gig with a piano player and a vocalist.

The ant continued to labor hard every day, leading to a physical breakdown and an early death, while the grasshopper lived a long joyous life, living it up with wine, women grasshoppers, and song."

[tonedevil]

35. LOL...

I can see room for multiple versions. It is a folk tale after all.

[keithbvadu2]

30. Many companies are more interested that you FINISHED a college degree.

Many companies are more interested that you FINISHED a college degree.

It shows that you have the drive to succeed.

[tonedevil]

36. Less than half...

the college educated IT professionals that I have worked with had a degree in something computer related. Unless it is a specific educational requirement a degree is a degree.

[keithbvadu2]

31. Is the ant communist or socialist? Certainly not capitalist.

The ant has no personal property or food stores.

He works, fights, and dies completely for the community.

Is the ant communist or socialist?

Certainly not capitalist.

[Mr.Bill]

32. If compensation is the only measure of success at work

then why am I finding it so fulfilling working at my local hospital as a volunteer now that I am retired?

[FreeState]

39. Majored in art in college

And have worked in art since. Same with many of my friends and family members.

[Wounded Bear]

40. I'm pretty sure it's been proven that arts studies...

lead to better grade scores in other subjects, incuding STEM. Far too many people get degrees that lack the critical thinking skills and discrimination needed to navigate real life.

[Stallion]

42. I Got a History Degree and "My Portfolio is Strong to Quite Strong"

I think a History degree is one of the best majors a litigator can take

reading comprehension and writing ability are unmatched in a history degree

[gulliver]

47. The liberal arts, sports, etc., are, as you point out, central to human wellbeing.

[Hortensis]

48. We need a nation full of people with arts/history, humanities degrees,

AND science, math, all the rest also, of course. Those without respect for knowledge need them more than anyone else, since they typically stop reading after school ends. Of course large numbers will start forgetting much that doesn't suit them, but some will stick.

Scarily given what's happening, including the movement away from universal education, Scott Walker-type fascistic authoritarians need an uninformed populace and sincerely believe in limiting education to what's needed to serve the needs of industry, as Walker himself put it. Can't deny how valuable ignorance is to them, of course, given how well it's working for those archconservatives.

[TexasBushwhacker]

49. I don't care what anyone majors in

But if they're going to take on a lot of student loans, they'd better have a game plan about how to pay them off.

[burrowowl]

52. Kick and kick

[captain queeg]

53. The narrative remains you need a college degree to succeed

And that means financially. It’s unfortunate. A college degree is not for everyone. The US needs to develop technical training for those who are only interested in earning a decent living. That said, I think most anyone benefits from a college education but perhaps some would prefer not to spend that much time and money before entering the career work force and pursuing other goals.

[ret5hd]

54. Liberal Arts degrees give you the tools for a life...

Business degrees give you the tools to do a job.

[hunter]

62. My wife and I are science majors, my wife a doctor... things you didn't know about Hunter.

My wife has taught statistics. She is also an artist.

I have an English degree as well, not that I use it, choosing to scorn and abuse my native tongue.

Our children are artists like my parents, and they happen to have English degrees. They are more successful than their parents, financially and otherwise, beyond the dreams of any parent, and not weak in the maths or sciences.

I do not argue statistics or calculus with my wife or children, various nieces or nephews, nor any of their spouses and significant others. I will lose.

I can't draw, paint, or sing, but they can, which makes me a very fortunate human being.