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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOur daughter has been indoctrinated by the Fauxed and Christianed family she married into.
She wants nothing to do with us. Were evil liberals. It was the first holiday without her and our grandchildren. Has this happened to anyone else? How are you coping?
Lunabell
(6,080 posts)This must be so painful for you. I hope one day she'll wake up and return to her right mind. I am lucky that my sisters aren't trumpsters. My parents are gone, so they don't count, lol.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)Doesn't God love everybody? No matter their political party. I'm sorry for you and your grandkids maybe the grandkids will realize this is not right. Bless you.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Were baby killers, dontcha know.
dchill
(38,489 posts)spike jones
(1,678 posts)You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)even sadder to think the grandchildren are being brainwashed too
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Personality is very strongly influenced by environment, but it's also genetically linked, and your grandchildren have your genes also. I've forgotten the exact figures, but at least/something like 1/3 of children of strong conservatives do not share their parents' views as they grow up.
SuprstitionAintthWay
(386 posts)My brother-in-law heard Rush playing in his workplace every day for decades and had Fox "News" on every night at home as he raised my 2 nephews. Both boys are now young men. One is a guns and jacked-up pickup trucks enthusiast who hates all minorities. The other, tho a college grad, insists humans aren't causing climate change, particularly hates feminism, and gets all of his political opinions verbatim off Breitbart or even Infowars. Both, of course, along with their dad, are hardcore Trumpists.
I do what I can but it's paddling against.the tide.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)produced news and available all day. It's formula is very watchable and in most hours and places the only major national news programming available. Even when you know they're showing freak deaths on roller coasters and incredibly stupid bank robbers to keep people both delusionally frightened about how dangerous it is "out there" and entertained, it's still lively and interesting.
People who vote against Fox's Kool-Aid strongly outnumber those soaked through with it, though. If it weren't for the electoral college, what today's Republicans have become would be hard put to elect more than a minority caucus anywhere but very red states.
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts).... tend toward the average, rather than adopt those views themselves.
This is why recruitment and conversion are important to extreme sects. Without it they would wither away over the generations.
bamagal62
(3,257 posts)They were missionaries and my husband and his sister (MKs-missionary kids) are both very anti-organized religion. Neither go to church and the whole religion thing annoys them. Their whole childhood revolved around the church and they couldnt get away from it fast enough. His cousins, on the other hand, who are PKs-preachers kids, are batshit crazy. Ive always wondered if their living overseas helped broaden their views (my husbands and his sisters).
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)I find it bizarre.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)There appears to be a religious aspect as well. The Bible says Jesus taught his followers to reject their families if they believe differently. Some Christians take that teaching very seriously indeed.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Tech
(1,771 posts)Luke 14 : 26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life - such a person cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 10 : 34-36 - Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-lawa mans enemies will be the members of his own household.
He set the example by rejecting his own family, in favor of his disciples:
Matthew 12 : 46-50 - While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you. He replied to him, Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? Pointing to his disciples, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)He thought of his mother and asked Apostle John to take care of her.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)that she was doing "the will of my Father in heaven" well enough to suit him, and so she could be his mother again.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)He was not rejecting His family but elevating His disciples
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)I think that only King James Bible uses the word "Hate". Unfortunately, this is the translation that seems most popular with right-wing, fundamentalist, "Christians", and while many of them think they are biblical scholars because they can memorize convenient chunks of it, they are not really very literate.
Beartracks
(12,809 posts)... who are we to say He didn't talk to His family after He was through teaching? Or that the story is indeed even "historically accurate" in that the event happened exactly as written down many, many years later? The Bible isn't exactly a documentary of Jesus' daily comings and goings.
==============
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Transaction of the Bible. That's purely Protestant that teaches Sola scriptura.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)That's not what that parable means at all.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)You see, the opposite of love is NOT hate, the opposite of love is manipulation. When you do something out of love, you do it solely for the benefit of that person, with no expectation of anything for yourself. When you do something for someone expecting something in return, that is manipulation, and it is the most unloving thing you can do. Love is losing yourself for the benefit of others
St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians (which everyone breads at weddings but few actually take the time to digest) speaks of what love is and is not!
Jesus 11th commandment was to love thy neighbor as thyself. He also spoke of "whoever tried to save his life will lose his life...". Jesus "came to serve, not to rule", self sacrifice for others and for God is the message.
Catholic teaching even of the Commandments differs from Protestant in that it's not "Worshipping other God's", I n Catholicism, anything put before God can become a false God. This can include money, sex, booze, your job, your children, etc. If that becomes your motivation, you have made it your god.
That parable is Jesus telling you to put God before your parents, children, and yourself.b
It's not meant to mean that you are to literally HATE your parents
spike jones
(1,678 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)You don't get it. When you love someone you act solely in their interest, not your own.
Love means giving and doing with no expectation of getting something in return. It is completely selfless
spike jones
(1,678 posts)It is like, "love is never having to say you're sorry.'
But so is not giving a shit.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Because you value the other person's feelings more than you do your own.
Whoever made that quote had no idea what love is.
spike jones
(1,678 posts)I am sorry we disagree on this. I love you.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)In both the OT and NT theres numerous verses which instruct followers in that very message. While someone might take a particular verse and twist themselves enough to think it means something else, its increasingly difficult to do so with all such verses. Even if one is able to delude themselves into believing otherwise, the notion that all those who most certainly are convinced it means what it says are doing it wrong becomes a work of performance art.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)https://catholicproductions.com/blogs/mass-readings-explained-year-c/the-twenty-third-sunday-of-ordinary-time-year-c
Oops. Says exactly what I said it did, and these Apologists are saying don't read it LITERALLY!
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Any continued arguments you wish to have are going to be solo or with someone else.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Because you obviously don't?
You are spreading misinformation, and it's wrong. My grandparents were Apologists and my Aunt a Sister of Charity.
I may not believe it, but I sure as hell know what the teachings are. I grew up in that culture and I was expected to KNOW it, not just practice it. Catholics have enough problems without people attributing the Protestant bullshit to them.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I was just presenting a different viewpoint which has evidently upset you for whatever reason. Now you are simply getting uglier about it which I had already anticipated. All you are really doing now is just confirming I made the right decision not to discuss the subject with you further.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Catholic teaching, NOT that of the Catechism or Magesterium. You cant pretend I'm wrong, because I'm not. I linked you to two Apologists' blogs that parroted exactly what I said. I told you my background, do you really think that had not heard Luke 14:26 before and not heard the Catholic position?
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)a la izquierda
(11,794 posts)Its a very odd interpretation.
Bedsides, pretty sure one of the Commandments is to honor thy father and mother.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)They simply deviate from the literal occasionally when it suits them while pretending to know what the intent was of the anonymous authors which they cant possibly know. Of the two approaches, its the least honest.
Meanwhile theres numerous other verses which illustrate the same point, many of which have been used by saints and popes to shun not just non-Christians, but also non-Catholics.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Catholic Church (CCC), paragraph #115, we read,
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses [more on those below].
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Interesting you left that part out. Along with the next section which deals with the former
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Paragraph #116 of the Catechism gives us more on the literal sense of Scripture, The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.
It is the MESSAGE, being conveyed.
That was what was below.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The only thing thats different (occasionally), is the interpretation.
All popes, including the current one, preach that the bible is inerrant. Its pretty difficult to simultaneously preach about an inerrant bible while claiming so many verses dont mean what they say they mean. Goes a long way towards explaining why shunning non-Catholics is a time honored tradition, or at least considerably farther than trying to explain why it isnt.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)That whole "Divinely Inspired" in s all Protestant.
The Catholics teach that Jesus spoke in parables and also teach that there is Sacred Tradition as well.
In fact, the Vulgate is NOT even the same Bible as the King James. Two different books.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Regardless, being divinely inspired is NOT the same as incapable of being.incorrect, especially when you realize, as I stated earlier, that Catholic teaching is NOT in a literal translation, but rather, the spiritual message conveyed by the parables.
In fact, the Catholic missile and prayers were recently re-translated with some rather distinct changes.
Furthermore, Vatican II would have and could have NEVER ocurred if what you say is true. The Order of the Mass was fundamentally changed. Impossible if your views are correct (which they're not)
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It literally says without error. You dont get to have it both ways here. If you are going to use the catechism as your proof of concept, selectively reading it while ignoring the parts which you dont like doesnt do your argument any favors.
Since you are intent of going down the road of strawman with whatever you claim my view is and getting very far away from the point in which you originally contested, I see no point in my continued participation.
Cheers!
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)A divine message is NOT the same as literally taken word for word. So in your world, Robert Frost really WAS talking about a stroll through the woods and NOT his life choices. Pretty. Freaking. Sorry.
You also claim that Catholic and Protestant are essentially the same, when in fact, they are not, especially once Calvinism is introduced.
Transsubstantation, the corpa on a crucifix, the Order if the Mass, the Apocrypha, reconciliation, Apostolic lineage, faith AND works, etc.
You are right, we need to be done but not because my argument had changed, it has not. Catholic teaching has NEVER been a literal translation of the Bible. Jesus spoke in parables in a way that would deliver a message to the people of that time. The message conveyed is the truth and the divine, not the stories.
It's why Catholics don't say the world is 4000 years old.
blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)That's something I would look up.
Mariana
(14,856 posts)blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)stopbush
(24,396 posts)Amazing how believers ignore half of his sayings and filter the other half through the Enlightenment prism to justify the bullshit.
Jesus is a fiction, a fiction that reflects the inhumane times in which the fictions were written.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)stopbush
(24,396 posts)Richard D
(8,754 posts). . . the Greeks!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Beringia
(4,316 posts)stopbush
(24,396 posts)Beringia
(4,316 posts)stopbush
(24,396 posts)delisen
(6,043 posts)Catholic church uses this say of Jesus to forbid divorce. Anglican used to do so-not sure what the doctrine is now.
Many protestant churches ignore it, thus much divorce among fundamentalists and evangelicals.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)We were very close until he married his wife. Her family were one of those Catholics who hate Vatican II and believe services should only be in Latin etc. Our family attended Mass semi regularly but we weren't devout and we certainly didnt care whether the mass was in English.
Overtime my cousin started distancing himself from me and his other cousins (we were always very close) his parents got divorced so he first distance himself from his father, then his sister because she was in contact with his father and then his mother because she refused to speak badly about her ex-husband (he cheated but she didnt want to alienate her kids and grandkids)
Eventually my cousin got divorced himself and slowly he came back to us. It was incredibly destructive though. He too called us liberals and worshiping satan. It was a mess..
I can share how heart braking it was for me but I know my aunt hurt so much more. She missed the first 6 years of her grandchildrens' lives.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...in that I was never an ultra-conservative Roman Catholic, but I can sympathize a bit with your cousin's later path (not the "accusing you of worshiping Satan" part). It must be devastating to buy into that ultra-strict brand of Roman Catholicism, especially in order to be closer to your spouse, and then find yourself with a status where you are told you are certainly destined for Hell unless you remain alone the rest of your life. Even being in a more-moderate version of Roman Catholicism myself, that experience was brutal.
braddy
(3,585 posts)herself and that she can only have opinions that are a result of being "brainwashed" by the people she prefers to be with.
Perhaps you should try accepting her as a real person.
Coventina
(27,116 posts)dem4decades
(11,288 posts)Sorry about your daughter.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)She may be discarding it all. Who knows. The emotional blackmail is incredibly painful.
dem4decades
(11,288 posts)Best of luck.
Desert grandma
(804 posts)Our son was estranged from us for a couple of years after the election. I continued to invite him and his family to all of our family gatherings. I had decided that if he did not respond to the invitations, then that would be HIS choice not to come and not ours. We never heard from them. Until last summer that is. It appears his wife was cheating on him and they divorced. He needed his family and our support. He started by communicating with his siblings and then reached out to us. I got a message from him a couple of weeks ago and he made a point to say "I love you guys, and I'm sorry I haven't shown it more often." So don't give up. If they are that rigid in their thinking, I would guess that there will be problems ahead. Keep the lines of communication open, because you never know when your love and support will be welcomed.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Rorey
(8,445 posts)She's not only cheating you out of time with your grandchildren, she's cheating them too. Even if your views are vastly different from hers, this is just despicable. It's not as if you'd be speaking politics or religion to a four year old and a two year old.
She sure as hell isn't acting in a Christian manner.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)I just want to play with them, cook for them and spend time with them. It is very painful. I miss them terribly.
keithbvadu2
(36,793 posts)She is probably indoctrinating them to believe that you do not want them.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)wow
That's sad.
The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Aristus
(66,333 posts)My s-i-l is the sweetest, nicest young man in the world. His parents and sister are right-wing whackos who are impossible to be in the same room with without imagining a smiling group of Germans shrugging as Jews are loaded onto freight cars. "Well, The Fuhrer says Jews are the enemies of the German Volk, right?"
Mariana
(14,856 posts)Her brother and I aren't Christians, so she wouldn't have anything to do with us, forbid her children to see us, etc. She also tried, with some success, to turn the rest of the family against us. My husband's relationship with his parents was strained for decades, right up until they died because of her relentless poisoning.
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:58 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm not sure if that's because they're more open to emotions/communication or what.
The religion aspect is the most disturbing. You can justify almost anything with it. :/
You might just need to give her some space. Maybe you can keep sending her well wishes on her birthday and the holidays, even if she doesn't respond. She may eventually regret cutting you off.
I don't talk to my Fox-News-loving parents anymore but they created a lot of family disruption (via divorce/re-marrying) when I was a kid so their politics were really just the last straw for me.
blm
(113,057 posts)Marriages change. She may need you down the line. So will the grandchildren. Divorce rates of fundies are pretty high.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Even with polar opposite political beliefs, I try to look for the points of agreement.
Of course, my parents are mainly 'fiscal conservatives' or libertarians to use a term. They're pretty amenable to the environment as an issue, and are opposed to religious influence in our government.
It's worth it to me to maintain our relationship. I can only hope that time and experience will modify their thinking, but for the most part, I try to stay away from being seen as trying to influencing them.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Calling and visiting. Then stopped us from visiting. There was no argument, no blow up. To make matters worse, my husband had a stroke right after the 2016 election and this weighs heavily on him.
I dont understand how she can just throw us away.
lostnfound
(16,179 posts)Im so sorry. I dont think you should think of it as being thrown away. Maybe she is stressed out raising the kids and has a controlling husband? Fears that the conflict with her husband about it will be the last straw. Deep down it may be different than it seems in the surface. Hang in there. .
You have a right to be angry. I wonder if youd like to volunteer to help some little kids, to give you a constructive place to transfer your loss and anger into a different outlet for the love you have to give. Like volunteer with a literacy group, Guardian ad litem, or m
Make a Wish, or something similar.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)making a choice that was not what she would have wanted.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Husbands stroke. Our politics has never been a secret. We never pushed any of our children to affiliate with any party.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)My oldest (29) and youngest daughter (22) got into a fight with their brother. It was over something really dumb. Not worth a harsh word by anyone.
The youngest instigated it. The oldest escalated it to the point where she first broke an electronic item he was holding. Then she followed it up by hitting her brother so hard in the ear he lost 90% of his hearing in that ear; and he happens to be a musician.
While he was not guiltless (called them some names in response to their bad words), he didn't hurt anyone, and was trying to leave when he got cold cocked.
While I was not there when it happened, I did try hard to get them to talk to each other and apologize.
The girls were so blind they refused to reconcile "until he gets help".
I ripped up their Xmas gift checks as well as my youngest's graduation gift check. Told them they could have them back when they start acting like adults.
Their response?
They ghosted me. It's been a year.
The reality of it from my perspective is it's not healthy for me to be in relationships with people who cannot treat those around them with simple respect.
While I am open to a relationship, I am not open to one where I have to accept a lack of respect and decency as a part of it.
Just my opinion... better alone than in bad company.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)I refuse to be treated like a doormat. Its difficult to realize that your own children can just remove you from their lives because of religion and a political cult.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Maybe some day they will come to their senses.
And I'm with you...I'm not anyone's doormat.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I've always tried to stay out of disagreements that my kids (all adults now) have had with each other. I know that I'd definitely insert my opinion if there was physical violence, because that's never okay. In the scenario you laid out, there was actual assault. Your youngest daughter should be thankful that your son didn't press charges.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Had the police arrived, my oldest would have wound up in cuffs.
I would have stayed out of it but for the physical assault. That's never OK...anywhere. I don't care what someone says to you.
My son had called the police. Then me. After I agreed to drive a couple hours to get him, he decided it wasn't worth dealing with the police so he called them off. Not sure why.. I didn't ask.
It was difficult at first, but therapy has taught me it's not healthy to have people in your life who don't treat you with the respect you deserve.
I'll never understand why it's so damned hard for some to say, "You know, I really screwed that up...I'm really sorry."
One of the mysteries of life....
keithbvadu2
(36,793 posts)The ones who ghosted you.
That way they probably cannot fight the will, claiming a share because you forgot them.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Spelling out that she chose to leave our family behind.
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)You might want to check with a lawyer or Google how that might work in your state.
radius777
(3,635 posts)What the girls did was violent assault that left permanent damage - that is unacceptable - if the reverse happened your son would be in jail.
There has to be a underlying/simmering cause for why this happened. If it was just a dumb fight it would've blown over already.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)My ex-wife is quite a narcissist.
Her idea of a relationship with a man is simply put; one way. She gets what she wants...that's it.
The girls have long had those tendencies....but they never blew up like this before.
I've seen it before in person. I've intervened in the past using humor. I was on vacation with the 4 kids a couple years ago. My youngest snapped at us boys that NO ONE GETS THE LAST 2 DIET COKES! They are her sisters.
I burst out laughing! I handed her $20 and said walk the 30' across the street and get more...we're on vacation! I suspect now no escalation happened because I'm their dad.
My son's response in the past was just what he did that day....sarcasm. After that, he asked if she could just speak to him nicely.
I'll never get why the blow up this time.
It is sad...but in the end, they are the one's who really lose. I've been there for them thru some pretty rough times. It's hard to find people in life who will be there for you thru thick and thin.
Throwing them away over nothing is really bad planning if you ask me.
radius777
(3,635 posts)can talk to the girls and resolve the issue. It sounds like a gendered divide in the family that she had a role in creating, and perhaps can help to resolve. The son also may be contributing to the problem in ways not understood on the surface. The best way to resolve these issues usually is a respected family member or friend that everyone likes, to provide perspective and serve as mediator.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)My suggestion is to NOT discuss or talk politics with your daughter and her family.
You know what, at the end of day, our lives do not change drastically depending on who wins elections.
I am coping just fine, Trump or No Trump.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)But I do hope that family finds peace instead of fighting over politics. Family is more important than who gets elected.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)When they wont recieve life saving care.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I agree that in some instances it's better to not talk politics with some people, but I completely disagree with your assertion that "our lives do not change drastically depending on who wins elections." Perhaps yours doesn't, and perhaps mine doesn't either. The impact of the policies of Repubs on my kids and especially my grandchildren may indeed be drastic. The very planet that we live on is endangered because of the policies of Repubs. That's a pretty big deal. And that's just one issue.
at140
(6,110 posts)soothing and peace finding path to the Original Poster.
A break up with your child over politics is extremely cruel situation for any parent.
Just leave it at that.
DENVERPOPS
(8,820 posts)Sorry that your daughter has been taken over by a "cult".........if you do see her, tell her not to drink any kool aid that they may offer her........
Seriously, I can't think of much of anything that would happen to a parent. Especially for such a spurious crowd as these anti-christ characters.........
I wish the FBI or someone could help, but I doubt they are gonna be able to do anything given the 60 Million followers this self proclaimed Messiah has following him.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)It sounds almost certain that your daughter married into that family because her own nature naturally aligned with theirs. And tragically, this era aligns with con v liberal demonization.
Our DIL's daughter rejects her for personality-disorder reasons. Our DIL absorbs the kicks and keeps the door open. For some time now, the daughter has a guy to support her, so she's free to blame our son and DIL for various offences and not allow them to see the adorable 2-year-old grandson they reorganized their lives to largely raise in his first year. Heartbreaking. Of course, my husband and I miss him terribly also. When her daughter does want something, she always answers her calls nicely (as do other relatives), though every refusal of some unreasonable demand, including to cut ties with a relative by marriage who tried to put her through college and tried to give her the house he put her and allowed her to live free in, but who finally drew the line as the house was trashed and they blamed him for their abuse, is met with additional antagonism. On the plus side, he seems happy on the rare occasions when he's seen.
Hope that little glimpse into their world helps your daughter and relationship with her seem healthy in comparison. At least it sounds like she and your grandchildren are part of a functional family and you don't have to worry about their wellbeing. As for the liberal hate syndrome, that will someday ease for RW society in general. Hopefully, that big change will come to your family.
And maybe do whatever you can to let your grandchildren know as they grow older that you love them and are always theirs despite the divisions. Cards and gifts. Show up for school or other events if okay with the family. Eventually, one or more is likely to be more like you than the rest of their family.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)As was all of his siblings. My daughter has already told us that her children will also be homeschooled. There is literally no communication. We leave gifts and small things on the porch for them. That about the extent of it.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Half the problem social workers have to deal with -- yours -- isn't.
Occurs to me that a line of information, rather than communication with family, about this church society might be a good thing to have. Might be a relative of other members or even chatting with a server in a local restaurant or a mail carrier (where they still exist they often know a fair amount about people and activities on their routes in general). Have you looked for on-line groups of people in your position?
Best wishes.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Members to avoid putting people in a hard spot. My in laws are fundies as well, nothing like her. She doesnt really speak to them either.
LaurenOlimina
(1,165 posts)It will give you some perspective.
"In the past five years, a clearer picture of estrangement has been emerging as more researchers have turned their attention to this kind of family rupture. Their findings challenge the deeply held notion that family relationships cant be dissolved and suggest that estrangement is not all that uncommon."
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)LaurenOlimina
(1,165 posts)You are not alone.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)catchnrelease
(1,945 posts)I was listening to it last night while driving home. I couldn't remember what the program was, but reading this thread I thought it would be so timely to post. Thankfully it is not relevant to me or my family but have had extended family with this issue.
My husband is long estranged from his only daughter and while he rarely talks about it, I know it pains him. My own immediate family is pretty close so it's really an unthinkable concept to me.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)One of his children married and attended the church his spouse attended. For 5 years my friend did not see his grandchildren because he was not of their church.
After a time, he and his wife decided to seek another church in the same denomination. The situation is much better for them.
One hopes your daughter will do the same. Good luck.
cilla4progress
(24,731 posts)Though I am missing usual sources of joy in my life (strong community connections, good close friends that we actually spend time with).. I am very grateful that my extended family has successfully navigated this dilemma.
My side, all Russian Jewish immigrants married into African-American family so far, is all progressive. My husband's elderly mother and 2 of 3 siblings and families are all Democratic party-affiliated. He has one sister and her descendants (sons and grandkids) who have drunk the fundy koolaid and are drumpf supporters. And you know what - we love them to pieces. Not a word of politics crosses.our lips - not even the day after the election! It's kind of weird, but it works.
I wish this for others.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)let me just say I understand... my story is too long and complicated to share here
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Maraya1969
(22,479 posts)the millions and that includes children and babies and unborn babies. And the number of suicides of veterans since that same time is over 200,000. If that is what they want to proudly say is their view of "Pro-life" than so be it.
Republicans are the ones who start wars and then they cloak themselves under the name, "Pro-life" which they are not.
It is Democrats who want peace and work toward peace.
idk. Maybe something to bring up at the right time. Especially since one of the commandments if, "Thou shalt not kill"
And my condolences for your loss also. My brother wrote me off years ago because I was not living this, "Christian life" Things have changed over the years and we do have a relationship now. But I must be careful what I say to him and his family.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)I have pointed out many times that you can not be pro war and pro life. The two are simply not compatible.
erlewyne
(1,115 posts)When you are there it is a different story.
You are not on tv. Long thankless hours, days.
Thinking WTF. Wished I had this girl to hold
What did I serve for? I know she loves me.
Backseat Driver
(4,392 posts)and it too hasn't been easy to accept. My RWXtian fundamentalist mother asked me never to speak to her again. Tired of the double-messages, the gaslighting, and other abusive behaviors, and steering that extended to her grandchildren and which evidently poisoned my dad and siblings toward me and mine as well until his dying day and no intervention, there was little else to do but to quit a very toxic relationship and go no contact.
Our family made our own traditions for holidays; our bonds, I believe, are of unconditional love and support not merely duty done. We enjoy our togetherness and our boundaries. We listen and ache for each other's heartaches. Loving support finds a way, and over the years that was all I'd ever really requested of her. Obviously, she's not remorseful for her request nor her behavior. She's now 90 years old, and I'm assuming her life has been the best it could be for her; perhaps it included those others, perhaps not so much, but that makes me rest easy. We've had no major shared history for more than a decade. I've no knowledge of who she sees or when; her health, her circumstances. She has no interest in ours, and that's the way it is in this life. After that, who really knows and inside we believe what is personal to each of us, heart and gut!
In the meantime, remember you were a loving couple before you were a family; find ways to tend that spousal garden of love and keep the lines open to your grandchildren--there's a certain freedom in that. Your daughter's kids may ask questions or request visits if they are old enough to remember, and she'll be hard put to answer honestly. What did she learn about lying? You sound like a very good mom. Our grown children learn what they've lived but certainly peers have great influence. It's a strong but not certain motivator in being a good mom to have shared family values!
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Moved on with a happy life.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)We are pretty lucky - both are daughters are as liberal as my wife and I - one married an equally liberal man. The other married a fundy-type racist jerk - no idea how they are making it work. His parents are fundy wingnut types. No relationship between us and them, but we avoid each other. The fundy hubby knows enough to "go there" when we are around him. My brother veered far right when he moved to Florida - it has impacted our relationship for sure.
But - my wife and I spend most time with our two dogs and two cats, and as far as we know they are trump haters!
Not sure I have an answer for you - patience, perhaps, but once the cult takes hold, it is hard to see a way out for them.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)yaesu
(8,020 posts)parties at our local high school that i built with my own tax money.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)keithbvadu2
(36,793 posts)Isolation - a strong sign of a cult.
To ensure the righteousness/true proof of their 'faith', they have to demonize all outsiders, especially close family.
Niagara
(7,605 posts)In post #10, you said that you leave gifts on their porch for your grandchildren and you're not sure if the grandchildren are actually getting these gifts. Is it possible for you to start a savings account for your grandchildren? There will be a day when they will need extra money for a car, college or whatever else. I would hate to believe that your money could be potentially wasted. You could let them know down the road that you saved this money for their future.
Hugs to you.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)radius777
(3,635 posts)she's upset - get it out in the open and force her to answer. It may get messy, but it's the first step to resolving the issue. Perhaps another family member that she is closer to can serve as the mediator.
Was she always like this. I assume she was raised as a normal kid. Normal people whether Repub or Dem find ways to find common ground.
If she starts talking, don't try to unbrainwash her - just agree to leave politics and religion out of it - and only focus on family issues. The idea is to regain her trust.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)Slowly but surely we have arrived here.
Takket
(21,565 posts)Because she was indoctrinated into a cult by her father (i'm the step-dad). She finally came out of it about two years ago and our relationship is healthy again. Although our situation was rather odd... My daughter was shunning my WIFE because she divorced her first husband, in violation of the cult rules. But I, having never been in the cult, was considered "worldly" so the daughter would still talk to me.
Speaking from experience all i can say is................
1. never close off lines of communication. make sure they always know you are there for them.
2. even if they don't respond, send an e-mail or text every once in a while. just say we miss you, how are you... be friendly. not threatening. ask if they need anything.
it may take time but reasonable people are eventually going to be at odds with a cult at some point, and if they have outside support, they will break free. A woman especially in this life.... *sigh* it is a ticking time bomb for her...... the longer she is in the more they are going to try to turn her life into handmaid's tale. it will be slow but deliberate... which is why you must provide her some sort of grounding in reality. If she blocks your communiques, write her a letter. If she tears them up, ask a friend to relay a message. But if she gets silence from you, she'll assume you are not coming if she has to call for help later.
drumpf has created this cult, to divide and conquer our country........
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)FirstLight
(13,360 posts)I don't know what I did, but they have made it clear I am not to be trusted or spoken to. We live in a small town and they have also spoken ill of me around town... I don't care
One of the only things I can attribute to this is the fact that the d-i-l's mom is in NA and they are all about recovery. (even though both son and d-i-l drink, but that's ok for them) I have been known to enjoy a cocktail from time to time...but they make it seem like I am a falling down drunk who can't sustain a life. I was "allowed" to watch my first granddaughter for a total of 5 times when their work schedules conflicted... and then *poof* they made up some thing that I had a specific person at my house that they didn't like and that was it. (mind you, my babysitting time was SACRED I never had people over, that time was for baby only!)
Anyway, the kids are now 3 & 1 and my oldest has also cut out his younger siblings in favor of this girl and her family.
Don't know if it will ever be healed, I cry on mother's day and my bday.
My other kids are bitter and have no desire to mend fences, they think it is on HIM, and I have to say I agree.
It's heartbreaking :hugs: I think the person upthread who suggested volunteering with kids as an outlet for offering your love & wisdom is spot on.
Ironically, my eldest has some friends who are starting families of their own, and have included me...he has cut them off as well. So the isolation isn't just in the family, it's through all social contacts. (not a good sign )
Dan
(3,559 posts)It was like within families during the period leading up to the Civil War?
Some members of the family supported slavery and then some members did not.
I can sometimes only imagine the love that was felt between the various family members and the hurt at the choices that they faced.
This is not an answer, but what I know from my own personal experiences is this that regardless of the cost...
You must be true to yourself.
Good luck.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)Our adult daughter called and went into a screaming tantrum because we did not want to go to their church. We never provoked or questioned their political and religious views. I suspected that a minister at their church may have had something to do with it. I was tempted to call the church and ask for a meeting but decided to leave it alone and let time pass.
She didn't talk to us for almost a year after that. We did re-connect. No apologies and the event is never mentioned, but it seems she learned an important boundary. We were not going to let her behavior change or provoke us.
jimlup
(7,968 posts)of the current neo-con movement. He is so bad a captain that ship is sinking.
The Trump movement may well be so discredited in 3 years, that it brings your daughter back to you. I hope so.
NameAlreadyTaken
(977 posts)""A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
- John 13:34
Also, while they have their Bible cracked open, Matthew 25:40:
And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me."
- Matthew 25:40
madaboutharry
(40,210 posts)I am so sorry you are experiencing this hurt.
Hopefully one day your daughters heart will change.
Wishing you peace.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)I am truly grateful for each one of your replies.
Joinfortmill
(14,417 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Please let her (and any older grandchildren) know that your door is always open, and that no matter what you will be there for them, if they ever need it.
She may need a lifeline out of this cult, and you might be it someday. She needs to know you will forgive her.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)kimbutgar
(21,139 posts)This must be so painful. I would never give up my parents (even when they were alive ) for my husband.
Write her a letter and tell her you will always be there for her and if she needs money to escape you will give it to her. Does she have a friend you know and trust to give it to her directly? She might be in this against her will financially.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)and the teachings of Jesus, as indicated by his actual words, recorded in red letters in a red letter Bible. Jesus himself said nothing about the Trinity god-head, but he did say a lot about forgiveness, patience, tolerance, compassion, peace, and the corruption of greed and money.
I'm a Buddhist, who walked away from Christianity long ago. Shunning non-believers and labeling them as heretics is an age-old religious tactic to maintain discipline within the ranks. Try your best to practice patience, as you don't know what goes on in your daughter's marriage. Her husband and family might very well be controlling and manipulative -- even abusive.
My favorite parable of Jesus is about the Good Samaritan. In Jesus day, the Samaritans were dispised by the Jews, because they were "unclean," eating pork, not keeping the Sabbath, and worshipping idols. And yet in Jesus parable, it is the unclean Samaritan, who shows compassion to the victim in the road. Not the rabbi, not gthe Jewish priest, but the outsider.
This is a time for you to practice patience, love, and forgiveness.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,490 posts)You're being robbed of your moral right to be a part of your grandchildren's life and upbringing, as is traditional in most civilized cultures. Let's start with that as a foundation.
Further, you own a level of moral authority that is above your daughter because you gave birth to her and raised her.
My suggestion is thus: find out the organizational structure of the church they attend and request a meeting with one of the high-level officers of that organization, whom I assume would also be a minister. Lay out your dilemma to him or her from a humanist moral standpoint, and not from a doctrinal viewpoint of any church because you would just get in a pissing match over secular doctrine. You wouldn't even need to reveal you daughter and son-in-law's name, just say "one of your churches".
Just explain to him/her you feel you should not be rejected from participating in that family simply because you don't attend their church or share their politics. If they reject your argument and are willing to quote the basis for that, I would be tempted to let them know there's consideration of either taking it to a higher level of authority within that church OR exposing that practice to public media such as state-level newspapers.
Further, if they are making an official pronouncement that the church says they must reject you because of your political beliefs, I would be having a chat with the ACLU or SPLC.
However, should you get lucky and the higher-ups agree with you, get them to write a letter of proclamation you can present to your kids to consider, and hopefully you can reunite with your daughter.
Often, these local pastors execute doctrinal practices they have designed to satisfy their ego which are not in compliance with the official doctrine of that organization. You deserve to know if that's the case here. After they are ordained, many of these dime-store preachers seem to think they are saints and have the right to declare what (their) god wants and does not want as if they have a direct line to heaven. Such proclamations in my view are human creations and are 100% false.
Something to think about and best of luck........
a la izquierda
(11,794 posts)My two aunts got into a long series of arguments that gradually drew in my sisters, cousins, etc. it eventually ended in violence. My one aunt shunned my mother because I had the audacity to call her out on her bullshit behavior. It has really split my family. I havent seen or uttered a word to my aunt or her kids. And if they fell off the planet, I would only feel sadness for my mother. They are evil, manipulative people who hide behind religion and racism.
I only feel bad for my mom.
Response to onecaliberal (Original post)
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