Once they file the articles of impeachment, he cannot issue any pardons?

[dewsgirl]

Is that correct?

[ramblin_dave]

1. Snopes says this is not correct

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pardon-during-impeachment/

“Except in cases of impeachment,” is not, as some have taken it, a Constitutional requirement that no pardons be issued during a presidential impeachment. Instead, it is widely understood to prohibit pardons that “restore the standing of a Federal officer who has been impeached and removed from his position.”

[dewsgirl]

3. Oh thank you.

[Eyeball_Kid]

2. Pardons cannot be issued in furtherance of the commission of or the cover-up of an alleged crime.

I believe I heard and read this numerous times, but I have no legal referent.

[dewsgirl]

4. Thank you.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. I don't think that's true. The power to pardon is absolute.

So the pardonee couldn't be un-pardoned. However, a pardon in furtherance of some malfeasance would be more evidence of obstruction of justice by the pardoner.

[StarfishSaver]

25. That's not true

The only limitation on the pardon power is that it can't be used to prevent an impeachment.

[H2O Man]

5. It's an open question.

It has never been resolved by the federal courts what exactly that may mean. There are, as we see among the responses here, different opinions. But until the USSC hears and decides, no one can say for sure.

[madville]

6. It means he can't pardon someone being impeached

Like if a federal judge or the Vice President was being impeached, the President wouldn’t have the power to pardon them.

He can still issue any other pardons at any time he is in office regardless of what else is going on.

[PoliticAverse]

15. Right. It means the President can't pardon away anyone's impeachment. That's all that means

"except in Cases of impeachment" clause means.

[SWBTATTReg]

20. So, we'll do an impeachment on everyone that rump nominates/etc., and then don't finish up ...

the impeachment on a timeframe, just like what Turtle did with Obama's supreme court nominee. Then, since all of these rump crones are being impeached for the next several years (remember, we are under no time limits, there are none listed, as to when impeachment should be finished), they can't be pardoned, etc.

[PoliticAverse]

22. They could still be pardoned for any _crimes_ they are or might be charged with.

Again - the only thing that clause means is the charge and or conviction of impeachment can't be pardoned away.

[StarfishSaver]

26. He can pardon anyone, even if they're being impeached

He just can't use the pardon to stop them from being impeached.

[Iggo]

38. There it is.

[jmowreader]

54. It also means...

...that if Trump gets impeached and removed, Pence can't pardon him after moving into the White House.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Not so. He's still the president until convicted and 86'd out of the White House.

[jberryhill]

10. Here's a question for you

Is a vote to remove him from office of immediate effect?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. Good question; it's never happened.

Will he be given time to pack up his stuff first or will the federal marshals immediately escort him out to the street and lock the gate behind him?

I'd pay good money to watch that.

[jberryhill]

14. It's okay if he's given time to move out

I mean, LBJ didn’t need to elbow Jackie and the kids out, but was certainly President that day.

It’s more along the lines of “when is the last moment he can launch nukes”.

[unblock]

41. It has happened, just not with presidents.

Judges have been impeached and removed. Afaik it is immediate, but the senate could decide to treat a president differently.

If it were up to me, it would absolutely be immediate, how insane would it be to give the president any power to do some big f.u. After being kicked out of office?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

42. A judge can't raise holy hell the way a president can.

Presumably an impeached and convicted judge is treated like anybody who's been fired - they have time to clean out their desk and slink off into the sunset. A raving nutball of a president like Trump would have to be "deactivated" immediately, at least by taking the nuclear launch codes away from him. IIRC, something like that happened when Nixon resigned - they took the "football" away several hours before he got on the helicopter.

[unblock]

49. That's the way I'd do it. But with the nutjobs in charge who knows.

Of course, the senate can control the timing of conviction itself. They can get a whip count, and if they have enough for conviction they can delay the actual vote until they figure out how to do it do it's least damaging to republicans.

Most likely, they'll convince Donnie to resign, as they did Nixon. Despite what people think, he'll cower in fear of such a huge public humiliation. He'd rather resign and declare victory.

[WheelWalker]

17. Is there a judgment of impeachment as well as a verdict of impeachment?

Is that sort of what you're asking?

[jberryhill]

21. Think of the implications of a delay

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

35. Don't get impeachment mixed up with conviction.

Impeachment is more like an indictment and all it means is that the president is being referred to the Senate for a trial. That trial determines whether he will remain in office. If 2/3 of the Senators who are present vote to convict, he's convicted. Since there's no appeal from a conviction, the only thing that happens after that, according to the Senate rules, is this: "Upon pronouncing judgment, a certified copy of such judgment shall be deposited in the office of the Secretary of State." https://www.law.cornell.edu/background/impeach/senaterules.pdf

[exboyfil]

24. I would assume that he could take no other official acts

I wonder what the tenant laws are in Washington, DC. Perhaps you would have to sue to get him removed from the White House? It is his residence.

[StarfishSaver]

28. Yes

The vote to convict operates as the removal from office, which is effective immediately.

The new president probably would give him time to remove his possessions from the White House.

[jberryhill]

30. Okay, so

...if they go to a roll call vote, does he sit there with his finger on the button counting down?

I don’t recall any particular preparations for a transition of power during the Senate vote on Clinton, come to think of it.

[StarfishSaver]

31. Interesting question

I don't think there was any serious belief that Clinton would be removed.

And he wasn't a sociopath, so there's that, too.

[mainstreetonce]

34. If a president is voted removed from office

is the VP sworn in immediately?

[StarfishSaver]

40. Probably, but under the 25th Amendment, he becomes president immediately, so the oath isn't necessar

Interestingly, prior to the 25th Amendment, there was a debate between presidential scholars over whether, upon the death or removal of a president, the vice president immediately and automatically BECOMES president or whether he simply assumes the duties of the office and doesn't actually become president until he takes the oath.

The controlling Constitutional provision at the time said:

In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President,

Because it wasn't clear whether "the Same" referred to the "powers and duties of said office" or the office itself, scholars disagreed.

This came up after Kennedy's assassination when it wasn't clear whether Johnson became president as soon as Kennedy died or whether he only would become president when he took the oath. That's one of the reasons Johnson took the oath before leaving Dallas - so there was no question..

Kennedy's assassination exposed several problems with how the Constitution handled presidential death and succession (including having no provision for a new vice president upon the VP's elevation to the presidency). The 25th Amendment was added to address some of them, including this ambiguity. It plainly states that, upon the death of a president, the VP "shall become president."

So an oath isn't necessary but would no doubt be administered anyway.

[CTyankee]

55. As I understand it, that was the reason for the famous photo of Johnson taking the oath standing

by Jackie in her bloodied suit...

[StarfishSaver]

56. Partly - he wanted to take the oath but, more important, he wanted to show the country

that government was continuing to operate seamlessly and the presidency was intact, even after such a horrific act.

Some of Kennedy's people were really upset about this at the time, but in retrospect, Johnson was right.

[CTyankee]

57. Yes, I remember reading that...thanks for spurring my memory...

[NYC Liberal]

32. I think something similar to what happened just before Nixon resigned would occur:

There were also serious questions about whether or not Nixon, in a desperate attempt to hold on to power, might use the military to protect himself and the White House. Tensions were already high in the streets of Washington, D.C. with protesters loudly demonstrating and calling for Nixon’s resignation. High-ranking officials in the Department of Defense and the White House privately worried about the possibility that Nixon would ring the streets around the White House with tanks and armored personnel carriers, ostensibly to protect the Executive Mansion from acts of civil disobedience, but also to set up a fortress-like barrier that might allow him to remain in the White House in the case of a Congressional or Supreme Court-ordered removal from office.

Most startling of all is the fact that in the week before his resignation, Nixon’s inability to efficiently or appropriately wield executive power had dwindled so far that Secretary of Defense James R. Schlesinger urged General George S. Brown, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to not take military orders directly from the President. In an attempt to save the country from any extra-constitutional power grab by a desperate President, the military chain-of-command took the extra-constitutional step of removing the President from the loop. Schlesinger also investigated what his options would be if troops had to forcibly remove the President from office. The Defense Secretary’s tentative plan was to bring the 82nd Airborne to Washington from Fort Bragg, North Carolina if that was necessary.

“What have I done?”: The Final Hours of Richard Nixon’s Presidency

tl;dr, I think Trump would be kept out of the loop on things (he probably already is, given we know how concerned the IC is with him) and people would just stall if he gave any orders as the removal vote was being taken.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

43. They took the "football" away from Nixon several hours before he flew away.

just in case. Trump would have to be deactivated immediately.

[trof]

52. OK, but they better count the silver before he leaves.

[NewJeffCT]

44. Yes - he will immediately lose his standing at POTUS

I think if Trump makes it till election day and loses bigly, Democratic senators should rush into DC and try to have enough senators present to impeach him in the lame duck period to prevent him from issuing more pardons and appointing more egregious judges - even if it's just for a few weeks, it could make a difference

(pulling a North Carolina state legislature in reverse - House & Senate go home for the holidays and Dems come to DC to impeach and convict)

[jberryhill]

9. Until removed, he is President, and can issue pardons

Which raises a fascinating issue of whether impeachment is of immediate effect and what can he do if it isn’t.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Since there's no appeal I'd think the removal from office would take effect immediately,

leaving him standing forlornly at the curb in front of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, with a change of socks and underwear in a paper bag and his extra-long red necktie flapping in the winter wind, as a federal marshal slams the gate behind him.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

51. You made me laugh. Thanks.

This thread is informative.

[LeftInTX]

53. But Nixon still got the helicopter ride!

[csziggy]

16. Isn't impeachment like being charged with a crime - not guilty until convicted?

That is, the House impeaches, but the Senate holds the trial and either convicts or acquits?

So just because a President is impeached - like Bill Clinton was - they are still President until and unless the Senate convicts him. That means they are still holding the office of President until the Senate proceeding is finished. I don't remember Bill Clinton being prevented from doing his job as President while the Senate was debating the issues involved.

BUT does that mean that Clinton, or in this case, Trump could/can not issue pardons whether or not the people receiving the pardons are connected to this case?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Correct. And as long as Fat Nixon is still president - that is, until the Senate

convicts his sorry orange ass, he can still issue pardons to anybody.

[PoliticAverse]

23. No that does not mean the President can't pardon anyone "connected to this case".

The President certainly can issue such pardons.

[WheelWalker]

18. I'm thinking as soon as there is a verdict, the VP becomes POTUS.

It might take a bit of persuasion to get him to leave town.

[exboyfil]

27. I think he loses any power once the impeachment

vote is confirmed. It would be like inauguration day. If the incoming President hasn't been sworn in yet, then the House speaker is acting President since neither the Pres. or VP hold office anymore.

[mainstreetonce]

36. Oh that is interesting

Don't tell this to Trump.

If he gets a removal vote,he might try to delay Pence from swearing in.

Meanwhile
Nancy has the power!

Please don't tell him.

[exboyfil]

37. I might be wrong

The swearing in might not make a difference. At the death or removal of the President, the Vice President immediately becomes President. The elected President and VP hold their office when the Constitution dictates irrespective of the swearing in ceremony.

The interesting thing is the 25th amendment does not remove the President, only designates the VP as acting President. The amendment is written so that, so long as no death, resignation, or removal (impeachment) happens, the elected President can still recover his Presidential power so long as the House and Senate do not affirm the decision of the VP and 1/2 the Cabinet by 2/3rd votes each.

[PoliticAverse]

12. That's not true at all. Anyone that claims that is simply making things up.

The President has full pardon power until such time they are "removed from office".

[Turbineguy]

29. They would have to be willing

and have enough to pay him off.

He'll only pardon if he can get something out of it.

[beachbumbob]

33. nope, as long as he is president he can do whatever

until he is voted "guilty" by 67 US Senators, which is 100% unlikely

[Buckeyeblue]

39. And does the presidency end at that moment?

Or is it noon the next day? The constitution is vague. When the final vote occurs, will Pence be required to be present to immediately take the oath of office if Trump is convicted?

[StarfishSaver]

45. It's immediate

Pence automatically becomes president - no oath is necessary.

[beachbumbob]

47. Pretty much same day, but never has happened before

Don't expect it now either.

[Codeine]

46. Where did this weird notion originate?

I’m always amazed by these sorts of myths.

[dewsgirl]

50. Twitter.

[Ms. Toad]

48. Why would you think that?

He still has the full authority of the presidency until he is removed from office, resigns, or is voted out of office.