"Our Health Care System Is Fucked Up And Bullshit"

[edhopper]

Last edited Wed Oct 16, 2019, 06:57 PM - Edit history (1)

"And while reasonable people can disagree about how to fix it, anyone who doesn't accept that basic premise - along with the fact that every other comparable country does it better and *much much cheaper* - can fuck right the fuck off."

Atrios

https://www.eschatonblog.com/2019/10/our-health-care-system-is-fucked-up-and.html#disqus_thread

I am really surprised that so many here want to keep our current system. 30 million uninsured, biggest cause of bankruptcy. Yet they are fine with what he have.

[Srkdqltr]

1. I think the health care is excellent, the problem is the way we pay for it

It is the insurance industry that causes our problems. They are for profit and make money not paying for medical expenses

[edhopper]

2. It is obvious

that is "the System" to which he refers.

He did not say our health care is fucked up.

[SharonAnn]

3. The health care, if you can get it, may be excellent but problem is getting and paying for it.

[edhopper]

6. Hence

"The System"

[Doodley]

29. What is excellent about dying younger than in comparable nations? What is excellent about

the over-prescription crisis of opioid and barbituates, and the death of 130 people a day from opiod overdose? What is excellent about poor infant mortality rates?

[hunter]

41. No, based on outcomes, U.S.A. health care is not "excellent."

It is too frequently unconscionably expensive, inappropriate, overly aggressive, and sometimes downright dangerous.

There's no simple way to tell if your expensive medical care is "excellent" or utter crap when the success of a medical system is mostly measured by the size of its revenue streams.

[TidalWave46]

46. The health care aspect is excellent in this country.

If you have the money. Which should be separate from the care aspect. I want everyone to have what I have. Excellent healthcare at every turn. Great preventative measures. Great doctors. A team of people who look out for my well being.

I think the poster was saying the system itself is broke. Not the care. That does mean that only the best coverage gets excellent care. It doesn't mean everyone insured gets excellent care. Just the opposite.

Care is currently based on the individual and their ability to pay, not the system as a whole.

[Mosby]

56. The insurance industry is a middle man

The problem is hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and medical equipment manufacturers.

[lame54]

4. I keep hearing that people love their private insurance...

Never gets challenged

Accepted as some universal truth

It's total bs

[edhopper]

7. They like their providers

i.e. Drs Nurses, etc..

They don't like dealing with the Ins. companies.

[lame54]

21. Exactly

[emmaverybo]

40. Warren has challenged it. All those who support M4All challenge it. The fact is that private

insurance is too expensive for many people, leaves folks stranded if caught sick out of network, and unless employer-provided is at out of reach prices for many families.

However, in making the case for M4All, the argument must not ignore that millions do have employer-provided or retirement benefits-provided insurance that is really good and in some cases
either paid for in part or in full. These plans were negotiated as part of a compensation package. The lucky ones would not see profit by trading in their medical plan for salary.

Understanding why some millions are reluctant to give up their private insurance should help M4All
supporters to persuade them that the benefits of M4All far outweigh what they are losing, or simply to be altruistic, and to accept that there is no other viable option for getting to universal health care than that they give up their affordable (or no cost) high quality plan.

[WyattKansas]

55. Employer provided plans are still paid for by the employee's wages.

It's not like employers just gift any health insurance cost to employees... If the employer had zero health insurance or cost, than that same dollar amount would appear as gross income to the employee. Nothing in this world is free, but things get a lot more expensive if a shell game is used to provide a simple necessity and it is sold as a premium gift from the employer that rarely pans out if needed.

[TidalWave46]

47. I love the care I receive through my insurance.

I want everyone to have the same. I feel it is possible through a single payer system. Can't necessarily say I love my insurance because of how expensive it is and how few in my community can afford the same level of care. While I am making sure to care for myself right now, the path forward is about community.

[WyattKansas]

54. I don't get why people call Medicare for all a tax increase.

People pay a lot of money for health insurance now (privately or percentages taken from their in total wages) and end up with pathetic funding of health care costs that end up coming out of their pockets.

Sure, Medicare will cost all people some money with a Medicare tax increase, but people will NO LONGER have to pay for private insurance or have their wages skimmed for the health insurance cost. And Medicare can have even more leverage to force the pharmaceutical and medical industries to stop gouging patients with Vulture Capitalism. Private Insurance... Fuck off, but you may provide supplemental plans with a strictly monitored rate if you want. Or better yet, we go all in with Medicare 100% and eliminate any added costs to patients for Medicare for all.

Very simple idea, until the republicans throw poison pills and hand grenades into the system to purposely blow it up or ruin it. Republicans really are sick degenerates that love torture others by obscenely profiting off of ill or hurt people in peril.

[Hortensis]

5. Putin "agrees." As do the candidates Russia's promoting.

The Democrats made no progress under Obama or over the past 70 years, much less the giant advances we claim and further advances we plan.

Contemptible lies to the wise, poison to the vulnerable.

[edhopper]

8. Who do you claim Putin is promoting?

[Hortensis]

11. That blog wasn't targeted at me. Didn't come up when

I searched even though all of us have been analyzed long since and are on file in St. Petersberg and wherever the Republicans store their data on us.

There's a reason for that.

[edhopper]

12. I have no idea

what you are talking about.

[Hortensis]

13. Please don't tell me you ignored several screens of

sites where healthcare is discussed by experts to find this blog post.

[edhopper]

17. No

I read Atrios and liked this blog post.

[abqtommy]

9. Myself and my son rely on Medicare and I can't fault it. The state we live in has a

program that pays our premiums and that really helps. The op title seems a bit extreme to me. There are many people who have employer-provided insurance and the're fine with that. Many people were fine with their ACA coverage before tRUMP and the reTHUGS screwed with it. I think the term
"Fucked Up And Bullshit" should be applied only where it fits, like with tRUMP and the reTHUGS.

[edhopper]

10. 30 million uninsured

#1 cause of bankruptcy. Most expensive healthcare in the World.
It is not fine the way it is.

[abqtommy]

15. I agree, there's much to fix. But to call the entire system "Fucked Up And Bullshit" is

hyperbole and offers no remedies. I'm Putting you on Total Ignore because I can.

[edhopper]

16. weep

[Blue_true]

59. Oh gosh. Please stop the drama. The poster made a legitimate point. nt

[edhopper]

60. And reacted to my reply

by putting me on ignore.

How would you like me to have responded to that?

[Blue_true]

61. I don't believe in putting people on ignore.

My ignore list is and will remain zero.

You can't debate someone that isn't willing to even read one sentence of what you write.

[edhopper]

62. so why do you have a problem with

my reply?

[Blue_true]

64. I think you are being overly dramatic.

I don't believe there is a single person here that doesn't think that our current healthcare system has issues and that we need everyone covered with good health insurance. The debate comes in when we discuss how best to reach an objective of providing affordable, high quality healthcare to every American. When I read your posts, in my mind I saw you latching onto one thesis and overreacting, IMO, to any post that debated your viewpoint. I don't believe we will get universal healthcare if we insist that out prescription is the only way to get there. I am not a big fan of the MFA concept because I believe that it is blind to some realities about how people get insured. But I contributed to Senator Warren last quarter and will most likely do so this quarter (along with money to Joe Biden), if Senator Warren or Senator Sanders will the nomination, I will table my reservations about MFA and focus on helping get the nominee elected President, I have faith that once we hold the Presidency and hopefully ALL of Congress, our democratic representatives will work out the best path forward toward universal healthcare coverage and better medical outcomes for all Americans.

We are not alone in having difficult societal problems. There is a story about a homeless five year old boy in Dublin Ireland eating dinner off of a piece of cardboard. One charitable group there provides ONE free meal each week on Tuesday and his mom bought him to have a decent dinner. The prosperous cities in Ireland have homeless people just like our prosperous big cities do and the government's there seem to be having as difficult a time as ours in addressing it (though in our case a lot of the current problem at the federal level is the belief that homeless people have no value). I believe that technology is at the very root of the homeless and a lot of other issues worldwide. Technology has massively widened the income gap and is pushing more and more people (except the top maybe 3-4%) down the wealth curve. There is blindness among the wealthy elite as to the danger that increasing income inequality means for them, for some reason, they seem to believe that they can avoid the historical end of the elite being overcome and even murdered, they think that they can build elaborate self-sustaining bunkers and survive - yet, there is nothing in nature that is self sustaining except maybe the Sun, and even it is slowly dying.

Lastly. Don't give one shit about what I think of one of your posts if you disagree with me. The whole point of a discussion board of current events, political and societal, is to discuss issues. When issues are discussed, people are going to occasionally virulently disagree, but that should be no cause for despair or ignoring people out of the gate.

[edhopper]

66. I think you are talking about my OP

it's a quote from the blooger Atrios. Not my words. But I agree with the sentiment.

[Doodley]

33. Yes it is fucked up when we are paying nearly 18 percent of GDP on healthcare with worse outcomes

than other developed nations who pay far less. I am one of those people going broke to pay for my wife's healthcare. Any other system that didn't cover tens of millions of people would be described as fucked up. Imagine 30 million without water. Would you say that was fucked up? Or 30 million without electricity, or access to roads or telephone. The whole system puts profits over people and it is corrupt to the core.

[essme]

25. I hope the poster that put you on ignore

Never has a friend or relative with awesome, work provided insurance--- and something catastrophic like cancer.

My husband and I are financially stable, with pensions, own our home, yada yada yada. We have great employer provided healthcare.

All it would take to bankrupt us, and cause us to lose our house would be one serious wreck, one stroke, one bout of cancer. People are fooling themselves if they feel safe in our current system.

[edhopper]

30. Thanks

I am in the same situation. A few years from Medicare, I hope nothing catastrophic happens.

[Ohiogal]

50. Me, too. Same boat.

[BigMin28]

37. Thank you!

nt

[Blue_true]

57. So we find a way to get the 30 million good health insurance.

That was the original purpose of passing the ACA, to get everyone insured with good insurance. Why not get solidly back on that path.

[edhopper]

63. Because the current system

is fucked up and bullshit.

[Blue_true]

67. I don't disagree that the current system has issues.

But that was not my point. My question is how can we best and permanently fix the problems with our system. In answering that question, there is a lot of disagreement on the best set of choices to make in executing the fix.

[kwolf68]

14. Total scam

Whenever someone says national health care will remove choice, call bullshit. The current system removes choice. My wife had a gynecologist she really likes, but that doctor is not "in network", so we have to pay way more to use her. How is it fucking choice if you can't afford that choice? Yes, we still used her, but I have less money for that "choice". Not everyone has that option, some just have to take in network MDs, thus they DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE. Scam.

If national healthcare is not the way to go, then I'd love to hear what the fuck is the way to go. The current model is malignant.

[Doodley]

35. You are exactly right. I hear a lot of what the Brits call an "I'm alright Jack" attitude on here.

[NCLefty]

18. It's probably because we don't know any better.

And the people who are currently impacted by it are the least able to focus on changing it. Everyone who isn't currently impacted doesn't really see the problem.

And people get real scared when the GOP fearmongers about losing doctors and death panels. Old Fox News viewers FREAKED about the ACA.

We'll probably get it done when Dems next have a full Congress+presidency and not before.

[Garrett78]

19. My wife and I are public employees and our health insurance sucks.

The out-of-pocket expenses are ridiculous.

[dalton99a]

20. It is goddamn fucked up:

https://features.propublica.org/medical-debt/when-medical-debt-collectors-decide-who-gets-arrested-coffeyville-kansas/
When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested
By Lizzie Presser
October 16, 2019

[MarcA]

48. Thank you for the referenced item.

So much to think about and so many ideas. Basically:
1) stop believing in the system, 2) educate, 3) realize the law can be
just another word for a gang, 4) organize.

[Wounded Bear]

22. We don't have a healthcare "system"...

We have a healthcare industry, designed to maximize profits and cut costs for providers at the expense of patients.

[Garrett78]

23. Slight correction: a health insurance industry

[Wounded Bear]

24. Insurance, drugs, even providers are all being taken over by corporatists...

[Garrett78]

26. Without major systemic reform, insurance profit will remain a priority over care.

How we best get to the goal is up for debate, but we need to have consensus on what the goal is.

[Doodley]

36. Well said.

[SterlingPound]

27. Sometimes i feel like i am just a lottery win away from giving up on the human race.

https://pnhp.org/

[onecaliberal]

28. The people who are fine with what we have are people who have insurance

and have never suffered a catastrophic health event.

[Ohiogal]

32. You are 100% correct, onecaliberal

[onecaliberal]

45. We supposedly have great insurance. My husband had a stroke a few days after the orange garbage was

Elected. He was in the hospital for 21 days. Our bill was over 200,000 even though I’m only supposed to be out a max of 4,000 a year. The 200,000 represents out of network costs. We will never pay this bill. It’s ridiculous to think this is okay because it hasn’t happened to you.

[Ohiogal]

49. I am so sorry that happened to you and your husband.

That out-of-network crap is patently absurd. I am sure other countries like France and Canada scratch their heads and wonder why we allow this insanity to go on here.

[onecaliberal]

51. The moneyed interests have been allowed to take everything

Last edited Thu Oct 17, 2019, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)

From everyone.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

58. The moneyed interests need

A tight tight leash and to be taxed heavily for the shit they have caused ,all the robbing the poor to enrich the rich,all the games and gotchas,and the lies and controlling bullshit,and I know the list of shit they have done to the people of this country never ends.

I hate the 5%.billionairs should not exist.

[Doodley]

38. Exactly.

[rusty fender]

65. Exactly!

Soon after that catastrophic health event, that excellent private health insurance stops paying out. Then you go bankrupt. That’s the problem with private insurance—it stops paying

[Ohiogal]

31. Change is hard for many folks

And I think there's a lot of "I got mine and the heck with you" attitude out there.

Let me tell you, being uninsured is a big eye-opener, and it can happen to anyone in the blink of an eye.

[edhopper]

34. I think you are right

and they should be ashamed to call themselves Democrats.

[Doodley]

39. I am uninsured. I have to pay for my wife's healthcare and a lot of out of pocket payment for

mother-in-law. Most my money goes on healthcare. If I get sick,we are all fucked.

[Ohiogal]

43. You should not have to worry

about losing your house if you get cancer. Just the thought of it is preposterous, yet that is the reality of life in the USA. Even if you have "good insurance." Bottom line is Don't Get Sick.

And trump and his cabal claim to put America first .... what a joke.

Just about every other country in the world has this figured out except for the USA. Why is that? I often think it's because we are under the thumb of Republicans who insist on determining your value as a person according to their metrics.

A human life is a human life ..... IMHO. We all need health care eventually.

[Bettie]

42. This whole thing has surprised me

as I discovered how many people love...no, adore having a for-profit company making decisions as to what care they are allowed to have.

They love them so very much that they are willing to pay through the nose every month, pay for the first couple thousand dollars worth of their care anyway (Out of pocket maximums), always pay co-pays PLUS usually 20% of the bill anyway after they've reached that maximum, and still they cheer about how wonderful these companies are.

These companies that literally have entire departments dedicated to finding reasons not to pay for the health care they say they cover.

I have a friend (who I don't speak to nearly as often as I used to) who told me that she doesn't want single payer because she doesn't want everyone to be able to see the doctor as it would inconvenience her to have more people able to go to a doctor because there might be a wait for non-emergency stuff.

[Ohiogal]

44. Good post, Bettie

The nerve of all those sick people who can now see a doctor and might crowd up the waiting room and make your friend wait! Oh it's just mind boggling.

And of course, there are the ones who insist anything run by the government is bad, bad, bad. But don't mess with their Medicare or Social Security.....

[unblock]

52. yes, mind-boggling how some people want other people to roam the streets sick.

*my* health is improved when *other* people get their diseases taken care of.

that's not a hard concept to understand.


but yeah, many people seem to like the idea of having a far greater than necessary risk of exposure to a communicable disease.



america has a sick view of money. as a society, we think if you earn more, you must be contributing more to society by definition. and, we think if you spend more, you must be getting better quality, by definition. so it is with healthcare. we spend much more than any other country, ergo, it must be the best system.

stupid, stupid, stupid.

[ritapria]

53. Amen

And Don't be shy :Tell us what you really think