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rpannier

(24,328 posts)
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:30 PM Oct 2019

The Bible's first critic

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Omaha Steve (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2019, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)

-Centuries before Spinoza, there was Ḥiwi al-Balkhi, a Jewish freethinker for whom the Bible was too irrational for faith

Much less known today is the fact that they, too, had a forerunner, and a rather early one at that. He lived eight centuries before their time, hailing from medieval Afghanistan: Ḥiwi al-Balkhi (also spelled as Chiwi), a man whom Spinoza and da Costa never heard of. But what do we know about this very early Jewish freethinker?

snip

Ḥiwi was an amazingly radical freethinker. About his life we know next to nothing. And most unfortunately, his notorious work, often called the Book of Two Hundred Questions, has not been preserved because the leaders of both Jewish communities of his day had no interest at all in its survival. They did all they could to achieve its disappearance, and nearly succeeded.

That we still know a fair amount about Ḥiwi’s work is something we owe to it being so controversial that, for several decades after its appearance, Jewish authors (including even Karaites) tried to refute the ideas of this heretic. Of course, in order to refute him they had to quote him: hence our knowledge of his radicalism. One of these authors was no less a person than Saadia Gaon, a leading Jewish scholar and rabbi from the early 10th century. (Abraham ibn Ezra, a famed biblical commentator of the same era, was another critic.)

snip

Ḥiwi argues that anyone who reads the Bible carefully will see that it often presents God as unjust and even ruthless (a question he asks is ‘Why did God inflict the Egyptian servitude upon the offspring of Abraham?’). Moreover, the Bible does not picture God as almighty and omniscient: in Genesis 3: 9, God asks Adam ‘Where are you?’ In Genesis 4: 9, God asks: ‘Where is your brother Abel?’ God is pictured as capricious since he repeatedly changes his mind, as in Genesis 6:6: ‘The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.’ The fact that the biblical God wants to receive bloody sacrifices can hardly be interpreted as an indication of God’s lofty status, or as Ḥiwi puts it: ‘Is not God represented as eating and accepting bribes?’ And what sense does it make that, when God prods David to commit a grave sin, it is the people of Israel who are severely punished, as when God sends a brutal plague to claim 70,000 innocent lives (2 Samuel 24)? Why did 30,000 Israelites have to be killed by the Philistines because the sons of the priest Eli seriously misbehaved (1 Samuel 4:10)? The conclusion, for Ḥiwi, must be that the biblical concept of the divine is primitive and in fact unworthy of God Himself.

link
https://aeon.co/essays/why-the-jewish-freethinker-iwi-al-balkhi-criticised-the-bible?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=67d9247265-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_10_10_06_16&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-67d9247265-70731013

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Bible's first critic (Original Post) rpannier Oct 2019 OP
I never assumed God... Mike Nelson Oct 2019 #1
I never took it that way either rpannier Oct 2019 #2
Agree... Mike Nelson Oct 2019 #6
Good point. rpannier Oct 2019 #7
If you read Greek Mythology, which greatly preceded the bible, Blue_true Oct 2019 #9
Given how God is portrayed in the Bible exhibiting human characteristics, it feels more accurate to alwaysinasnit Oct 2019 #3
Or.... guillaumeb Oct 2019 #5
I can understand that but it also leads to a conclusion that the Bible's depictions are misleading alwaysinasnit Oct 2019 #8
Agreed in part. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #11
I am a deist, so I believe in a higher presence than our own, an Blue_true Oct 2019 #10
No questions! Cartoonist Oct 2019 #4
I could never connect to the believe without question mantra. Blue_true Oct 2019 #12
After a review by forum hosts....LOCKING Omaha Steve Oct 2019 #13

Mike Nelson

(9,944 posts)
1. I never assumed God...
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:38 PM
Oct 2019

... asking "Where is your brother?" meant he didn't know the answer... but, maybe I'm reading it wrong. However, I agree God is very nasty... downright evil in Biblical stories. I guess he gets away with it because he's God?

rpannier

(24,328 posts)
2. I never took it that way either
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:47 PM
Oct 2019

But he brought up some valid points and the article points out some interesting questions and issues he brought forward

in Deuteronomy 32:8-10, it is said that God divided humankind into nations, his own share being the people of Israel. This clearly implies that each nation has its own deity. And the opening line of Psalm 82 states that ‘God presides in the divine assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”’, whereas elsewhere God proclaims himself to be the only one:

I think it's an interesting read and an interesting person

Mike Nelson

(9,944 posts)
6. Agree...
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:57 PM
Oct 2019

... I assumed there were other Gods... but secondary. There are other supernatural beings around, and I'm not sure where they came from... also, God as a "he" and not an "it" indicates something. Why is God a he if there are no shes?

rpannier

(24,328 posts)
7. Good point.
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 09:13 PM
Oct 2019

I have always had a nagging question, that I wonder if Hiwi brought up and that goes to the Garden of Eden (actually two questions)

The first is the Tree of Knowledge, in the middle of the Garden of Eden. I wondered in junior high if that wasn't akin to putting the chocolate cake of deliciousness in the middle of five 1st graders and telling them not to eat any of it

And, after they had eaten the apple, why couldn't the all-powerful God just remove that knowledge from Adam and Eve. In high school our teacher (A Christian Brother) said that's why the Church doesn't view the Old Testament literally

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
9. If you read Greek Mythology, which greatly preceded the bible,
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 09:49 PM
Oct 2019

the gods were often very nasty, having sex with mortals, taking sides and outright betraying those that had invested trust in them.

alwaysinasnit

(5,060 posts)
3. Given how God is portrayed in the Bible exhibiting human characteristics, it feels more accurate to
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:48 PM
Oct 2019

to say that "Man made God in his image" instead of "God made Man in his image."

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
5. Or....
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:52 PM
Oct 2019

man can more easily relate to the Creator by humanizing the Creator.

alwaysinasnit

(5,060 posts)
8. I can understand that but it also leads to a conclusion that the Bible's depictions are misleading
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 09:31 PM
Oct 2019

since human understanding is so very limited compared to the perfection attributed to the Creator.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
11. Agreed in part.
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 09:58 PM
Oct 2019

And being imperfect, we can only try.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
10. I am a deist, so I believe in a higher presence than our own, an
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 09:57 PM
Oct 2019

intellect far superior to our intellect. But I have long viewed the bible as a compilation of stories that were crafted by elders to keep people in line.

I don't deny that there was once a person named Jesus that did wonderful things to help the downtrodden, but I can't see miracles as being part of that. As a deist, I believe that the higher intelligence occasionally has special people born on earth.

I know that atheists and Christians, and Muslims and other religions are cold to the nature based belief system that I hold, but it is what it is. The natural world around me and my wonder at how it works is my church.

Cartoonist

(7,311 posts)
4. No questions!
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 08:51 PM
Oct 2019

Let alone 200 of them. Your job as a believer is to belive everything without question.

Which is why I am no longer a believer.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
12. I could never connect to the believe without question mantra.
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 10:02 PM
Oct 2019

So God gives us the capacity to reason, learn and make adjustments, but that God also wants us to blindly believe something without using the reasoning capacity that God instilled into us?

Omaha Steve

(99,506 posts)
13. After a review by forum hosts....LOCKING
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 11:51 PM
Oct 2019

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