"We know our rights come from God and nature" -Paul Ryan

[JaneyVee]

Was it God or nature that took so long to allow women & African-Americans the right to vote?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. no offense...

but it was gov't that kept them from voting...not God or nature.

sP

[Care Acutely]

4. no offense . . but surely you must know

... that the elected officials of government absolutely relied upon the "word of God" to deny women and not-white people from voting

- as I am sure you understand that "natural law" is a new kind of code word/momentum in the fervor to deny LGBTG families and individuals their human rights.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

9. still not what the OP was saying

just because a man denies someone their rights does not mean that they are still not rights...regardless of what shroud they hide behind to do it.

sP

[freshwest]

5. The government reflects the society within which is exists. It is not autonomous.

People created the government to be way it was, protecting slave holders and discriminating against women. People petitioned to change that facet.

Government is not separate from the people. The reason some of the Founders spoke against the power of corporations was that they were confronted with the most powerful, unregulated and brutal corporations of that day, the plantation owners.

Without giving them voice, there be no Constitution, we would still be an English colony. As other groups sought power in society, they elected people to do what they wanted done, and when those financial groups resisted, they formed the Confederacy.

Women wanted to vote and when they had enough support among the people, the government only reflected that. The government has no reason to exist or to pursue its own goals as a separate animal.

This is a myth promulgated by the same forces who dragged us to the civil war and seek to destroy our government so that it can no longer take into account the will of the majority to change society, to resist repressive forces.

They want to privatize everything in order to divide and conquer the people for profit. Government is the arbiter between the rich and the poor. The rich are the ones who spread the tale government is the evil force.

But government of some kind will always exist, civil or corporate. A person can escape paying taxes but not paying for necessities in life from someone who will get more money.

As far as nature and God, those things are not the creation of government any more than rights.

JMHO.

[Care Acutely]

8. hence the word "elected."

WHITE GUYS WHO OWNED LAND AND SLAVES created the government to be way it was, protecting slave holders and discriminating against women. (decent) People petitioned to change that facet.

Most fortunately for the people who owned slaves, had a penis, and were white, the majority of the votes went their way for a really, really long time.

I can, without reservation assure you and indeed bet my own sacred life that women of the time desired a say in their own destiny - for think of women as little as you may do, we do THINK. We do know.

[Cha]

2. Is that what they're calling

Demon & Draconian, these days?

[freshwest]

17. You mean Mittens and Little Dedo?

[dhill926]

3. what is this.......1600?

the fuck!

[freshwest]

18. It's regurgitated televangelist talk. Or maybe Francis Shaeffer.

[freshwest]

6. Neither. It was American society that was unwilling to change.

[JaneyVee]

7. Exactly my sentiments. These guys look at Govt as something evil,

which is why when they're elected we have evil governments. They don't even acknowledge that Govt can be used for good. The thing they forget is that WE the people bring about positive social change by electing those that share our worldview, not by electing those that believe in oppression. People were tear-gassed, trampled with horses, beaten with billy clubs—even murdered so that people could register and vote.

[freshwest]

16. Thanks, JaneyVee. There are really oppressive people running many state governments today, who even

Now are trying to push through bills to disenfranchise women and people of color -- they are so blatant. As Democrats, all we can do is to demonstrate them that we can make government work for them as well, as it has.

As far as those who are against women's rights and all the rest of the back wards things they are doing -- I'm not sure what to do, as they are following the siren call of radio pundits, both hate radio and the conspiracy talkers -- and are living in a separate reality.

The propaganda to destroy the government, using arguments of 'individual rights, freedom and liberty' which the government itself protects the individual from the oppressive individuals and groups is a deception. They want a world where the Man is the King of the Family, the Woman is barefoot, pregnant, uneducated and under his domination no matter how abusive --- when we see them eliminate battered women's sheltered, birth control, abortion, public and non-church eduation and opportunities -- which is pretty much what Queen Ann's role seems to be being made a role model for -- although they know full well what won't be the case. On the attack side is the Rush Limbaughs going after the Sandra Flukes.

Add to that the Neil Boortz and the rest of them, seeing blacks, browns and others as the enemy to their view of the world -- we are truly in the battle of worlds. President Obama with his multi racial background growing up in Hawaii and elsewhere, he and his wife both being educated -- are an affront to that other view of life. So they demonize him.

I wish we could just stay positive all the time, but they won't let us. They fund criticism of him from all corners but not the GOP. I think voting and continuing to fight for it, as you mentioned it -- as people DIED for this -- should not be discouraged period or discounted in its ability to effect social change by the voters. Just the fact that the GOP is trying so hard to stop us voting --- ought to be a call-out to all people who think government is the problem or voting is useless or the parties are the same. They are not the same.

Appreciated talking (and venting!) with you here today and all of your posts. You are one of our best.

[lunatica]

10. WTF does he mean by 'nature'?

because words have a very different meaning to him. 'Legitimate' means 'forced' means just another way that conception happens, therefore ergo the zygote is meant to be because that's God's will. See what I mean?

Maybe he sees 'nature' as 'it's normal to rape so therefore it's Normal'?

[JaneyVee]

11. Still waiting

for Paul Ryan to explain whether the rights to abortion, speech & guns came from God or nature.

[freshwest]

19. They're listed in the Constitution. But he wants a theocracy and 'it's just a piece of paper'

Little Dedo is just dropping a lot of buzz words into his speech, hasn't thought about it much. After all, he never gave up on Ayn Rand, so just how deep of a thinker are we looking at here?

He doesn't know about God or nature. Probably thinks gestation is the same thing as evolution. IMO, he's a good example of societal devolution and he and Romney want to drag everyone else down with them.

[ljm2002]

12. What makes that position so convenient...

...is it removes responsibility from the humans who deny and confer rights in real life. If a theoretical Greater Being is in charge, then you need not make laws, right? Because The Law is written in stone.

Of course, also conveniently, The Law (as interpreted by Ryan et al) gives extra rights to propertied white males, and to Republicans, and to the obscenely wealthy. But that's okay, you see, because these rights were granted by Divine Providence. And if you feel yourself to be shortchanged, well it's no use trying to get laws passed in this realm because laws are just made by humans, whereas The Law is written in stone and God is the arbiter.

It plays right into the Prosperity Gospel, where if you are rich it is because you are chosen to be blessed and if you are poor, it's because you are lacking in moral character.

Look only to yourselves, and don't even think about trying to change things through legislation! That is the perilous way of the Secular Humanist! We need not change what is simply God's Law! Bow to your betters, for they are above you not only materially but spiritually!

Never mind about that bearded hippie guy and his "Blessed are the poor" remarks. He didn't know what he was talking about. Just ask Ayn Rand...

[progressivebydesign]

15. So he's a Natural Law Party candidate now? Or just a Libertarian.

Wait.. I thought that the GOP was all about the Constitution. Is that now toilet paper?? I get SO confused.

Lyin' Ryan only worships one god... the mirror at the gym.

[JHB]

20. What's God and Nature's ruling on fair use rights?

What do they say about the rights of corporations?

What do they say when different rights clash?

What is and isn't a right, in their view?



Or is it us mere mortals who have to do all the hard work of interpreting and enforcement? In which case, aren't God and Nature just figureheads, rights-wise?

[FarCenter]

21. Natural Law

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm