Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
1. A great individual, and a great president...
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 10:03 PM
Jun 2019

A great individual, and a great president...

Flawed, like all of us, and a product of his times, but great nonetheless.

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
3. Or African-American, or Italian-American, or a homosexual in the Navy in WW I...
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 10:14 PM
Jun 2019

Or African-American (discriminated against in the New Deal), or Italian-American (interned during WW II), or a homosexual in the Navy in WW I (court-martialled)... plus he cheated on Eleanor, swore, and drank to excess.

Human beings are not perfect. True.

But on the scale of the 45-strong cohort he is best known as being part of, he's third from the top in any honest evaluation. Holding fast during the Depression and leading the Grand Alliance in WW 2 places him up with Washington and Lincoln.

And for a WASP male born in 1882, he was head-and-shoulders above the majority of his peers.

So there's that...

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
4. For African Americans in particular, the New Deal was a big fat nothing, even worse.
Sun Jun 23, 2019, 11:03 PM
Jun 2019

They were actively discriminated against and ANY benefit they got was ricochet that Whites could not consume all of.

And Blacks were literally sent into WWII as German and Imperial Japanese cannon fodder, the legendary accomplishments that many gained were done with outdated equipment and pure courage.

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
5. Um, yes and no...
Mon Jun 24, 2019, 12:12 AM
Jun 2019

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2019, 01:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Um, yes and no... African Americans were supported by the New Deal, like any Americans - 250,000 of the 3 million in the CCC were AA, for example, although there was discrimination in FHA loans at the same time. Then again, after Phil Randolph started planning the 1941 march, FDR signed Executive Order 8802.

FDR's record is mixed, but it was certainly better than Hoover's had been, and better than anyone else who might have made it to the White House in 1932, 1936, or 1940...

See:

[link:http://www.fdrlibraryvirtualtour.org/graphics/05-20/5-20-NewDeal_confront_pdf.pdf|]

As far as combat troops in WW 2, no, actually; African American Army combat units deployed very late in the war (the 92nd and 93rd infantry divisions did not go overseas until 1944, and the 2nd Cavalry Division was deployed overseas the same year and then broken up to provide replacements and service units).

AAs were certainly discriminated against, but based on battle casualties in the 92nd (~6,000, including attached units and personnel that were not AA) and 93rd (~250), "cannon fodder" they were not.

In general, the two combat divisions were used sparingly in WW 2, largely because of institutional racism within the Army. For similar reasons, the 92nd had six of its nine African-American infantry battalions replaced by "white" and/or Asian American battalions in the winter of 1945, before the final Allied offensives in northern Italy.

And as far as equipment goes, even the segregated Army combat units - the three divisions, the separate regiments, and the separate battalions, like the 761st Tank Battalion - had the same equipment as "white" units; the TO&Es were exactly the same, because logistics would have been snarled by having different issues of equipment. The 761st had the same M4 medium tanks as any any "white" medium tank battalion when it went into action in 1944, for example.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
6. I knew Black people that served in the military in Europe during WWII.
Mon Jun 24, 2019, 01:20 AM
Jun 2019

Their reality was not remotely close to the rosy picture that you paint of FDR's leadership of Black troops. Truman did much, much more positive change relative to Black troops in a war theater.

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
7. Nothing was "rosy" about segregation of the US armed forces in WW 2, and there's nothing
Mon Jun 24, 2019, 01:58 AM
Jun 2019

Nothing was "rosy" about segregation of the US armed forces in WW 2, and there's nothing in the above post to suggest otherwise.

So your point is unclear.

For references:

[link:https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/11-4/index.htm|]

[link:https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/diversity/african-americans.html|]

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
8. I will stay with recollections that I heard from old men and women as a child.
Mon Jun 24, 2019, 07:49 PM
Jun 2019

Their experiences were real and as an older person now, I find it shocking that what happened to them happened, a leader looking out for everyone would not have allowed that, even layers of hiearchy below that leader.

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
9. Anecdote is not evidence, and women, of course, did not serve in combat in the US forces during WW 2
Mon Jun 24, 2019, 10:25 PM
Jun 2019

Anecdote is not evidence, and women, of course, did not serve in combat in the US forces during WW 2; are suggesting that your sources said African-American women did so?

"What" is it, exactly, that your acquaintances said they had experienced that would lead you or them to believe they were used as "cannon fodder" by the US military in WW 2?

Details, please.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
10. Mail and supply details that were poorly guarded.
Mon Jun 24, 2019, 11:01 PM
Jun 2019

Those details were heavily minority and some paid with their lives (at least friend of the people that described what happened). Weapons and munitions that were not the state of the art that White soldiers had. Situations where the word of a German POW was taken over theirs. That is real ground level stuff that the rose-colored lens of academic historical accountings does not capture remotely to the magnitude that events took place.

Sorry, you can post all the links that you want and try to minimize me, my viewpoint on the issue came from real living people that I had the honor to meet before their memories faded. I will go with what they said happened to them.

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
11. Mail and supply details guarded by who?
Tue Jun 25, 2019, 02:18 AM
Jun 2019

Mail and supply details guarded by what units of the United States Army?

When?

Where?

You brought it up; provide some detail to substantiate your statements.

[link:https://www.archives.gov/research/military/army|]

Here are the US Army official histories, by the way:

[link:https://history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/collect/usaww2.html|]

Here is Ulysses Lee's (Phd. U, of Chicago, and major, US Army) biography:

[link:https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/ulysses-grant-lee-jr-1913-1969/|]

Although Dr. Lee was certainly an academic, he was also a commissioned officer in the Army and Reserve (ROTC, Howard) including on active duty from 1942-52, rising from lieutenant to major. He lived through the segregated Army, and certainly did not pull his punches when researching and writing The Employment of Negro Troops, US Army, 1966, and linked above.

Perhaps you should read it.









Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
12. You keep posting "official" military history. Like they don't have something to hide.
Tue Jun 25, 2019, 05:12 PM
Jun 2019

No thanks, as I have tried to explain to you a couple of times, I will take the accounts of now deceased people that LIVED the experiences that they spoke about.

RHMerriman

(1,376 posts)
13. You keep posting zero details or content...
Tue Jun 25, 2019, 10:05 PM
Jun 2019

You keep posting zero details or content...

You have, essentially, criticized the historical consensus; fine. Provide some evidence of something to counter it.

Data, not opinion.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Words of Franklin D. Roos...