Your Unscientific Degree of Left

[porphyrian]

Everyone knows that the economy and jobs play a major role in the coming presidential election, but social issues are turning out to be the deciding factor for many this time around. Has the GOP's Reagan-era bedding of the religious right, with their extreme social conservatism, finally rolled around to bite them in the ass? Maybe. Where do you stand? Straw poll...

23 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Lefty-left Liberal Everything
	18 (78%)
	Conservative economics, Liberal social issues
	2 (9%)
	Centrist or Not Sure
	0 (0%)
	Liberal economics, Conservative social issues
	0 (0%)
	Conservative economics, Conservative social issues
	0 (0%)
	Other (please explain)
	3 (13%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[ZombieHorde]

1. Other: Economic Issues = Liberal/Socialist. Social Issues = Anarchist. nt

[porphyrian]

2. Ah, I didn't think of that...

Where do you put something like healthcare? Do you consider it an economic issue or a social one? There's no wrong answer, I'm just curious.

[ZombieHorde]

3. I consider it an economic issue. I would like to see socialized health care in the US.

I just don't care if people want to smoke crack and fuck in the streets.

I am not an absolute social anarchist, since I am against murder, rape, kidnapping, etc. I don't really know if those crimes count as social issues or not.

[porphyrian]

4. The labels are arbitrary.

I'm not even convinced that economics and social issues can be separated so easily. However, we have been trained for decades to think along those lines, even though we probably don't agree on where one ends and the other begins. Crime could be viewed as economic (corporate prisons, bias in imprisoning the poor, corporate use of prison labor, etc.), as social (what constitutes a crime, who makes the laws defining crime, who is affected by those laws or crimes, etc.) or as both. I just like to see what other people think some times. Thanks for the explanation.

[porphyrian]

5. Anybody else? n/t

[Taverner]

6. Anarcho-Socialist/Anarcho-Syndicalist

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Left Libertarian - aka Anarchist

[Quantess]

8. One comment:

Fiscal conservative, Economic conservative are confusing terms because the names seem to be meaningless nowadays. If Democrats are "tax and spend", Republicans are "spend and spend".
Spend and spend is not conservative.

[porphyrian]

9. Yes.

I used terminology that people tend to identify with, but that is confusing or meaningless without my providing any rules about them. Also, I have used a popular false dichotomy; economic v. social issues. This poll is not at all scientific or even useful in and of itself. However, it may bring up some interesting points of discussion, such as that which you have provided. Thank you.

[Quantess]

11. But that was not directed at you or the way your worded your poll!

Last edited Mon Aug 27, 2012, 05:03 PM - Edit history (1)

It is something that has irked me for years. People say that they are fiscal conservatives, and they might try to match it up to RWers who claim to be conservative but in reality are not.

If I had written your poll I would be at a loss for how to label a L / R dichotomy when it comes to finances and economics, too.

[porphyrian]

14. No problem, I took no offense. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

10. The general politics of DUers as a whole are what I consider "moderate"

[porphyrian]

15. Possibly. I did this to see how people would categorize themselves today. n/t

[cthulu2016]

12. Other: Economic liberal, social civil-libertarian

Justice Stevens was one of my heroes.

Given the utter contempt for civil-liberties often in evidence on DU I have to believe that I am not whatever that is... statist progressivism?

[porphyrian]

16. Welcome to the Big Tent!

Believe me, there are just as many civil-liberties defenders on here as those seeking to give them up, they just don't join every flame war that starts up. We've got all kinds. I'm just checking to see who's voting today. Thanks.

[slackmaster]

13. Other - Chinese Restaurant Style

One from Column A, two from Column B.

Choice of Hot and Sour or Egg Drop Soup.

With five or more you get free egg rolls.

[porphyrian]

17. NO SUBSTITUTION!

Dim sum on Saturday only!

[Egalitarian Thug]

18. Other; Socially leftist, economically radical. n/t

[porphyrian]

21. Not a fan of increasingly unregulated capitalism, huh? n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

25. 18th century idea to improve on a 9th century con game and locked into a

19th century hierarchical model.

No, not really a fan. We can easily do so much better today, it's long past time to implement what we've learned, but we've forgotten the basic purpose of an economy.

[DefenseLawyer]

19. I consider myself more of a leftist than a liberal on economics

and a liberal on social justice issues (social safety net, workers rights, prison reform etc) and more of a libertarian on "individual rights" issues (drugs, prostitution, guns, etc.)

[porphyrian]

22. I know a bunch of people like you. n/t

[snooper2]

20. what about middle of the road economics, liberal social issues, and prefer will kill motherfuckers

who rape children?

[porphyrian]

23. I'm not sure where that would fit in this poll...

...but you would not be alone in your preferences for the treatment of child rapists.

[Motown_Johnny]

24. Left on almost everything, moderate on one or two things, conservative on none.

[sakabatou]

26. Left on social issues. Economy... *shrug*

[BOG PERSON]

27. i consder myself a totalitarian

i will stop at nothing to prevent the world from buying itself a Coke. most of my heroes are monsters of history.

[porphyrian]

35. But who will keep it company, then?

"Monsters of history" sounds like a band festival. The Monsters of Math tour was infinitely repetitive (sorry, fractal joke).

[MercutioATC]

28. Other: Conservative (Actual CONSERVATIVE) economics, libertarian social views.

Simple explanation: collect/spend money wisely and let people do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe on others' rights to do the same

[BOG PERSON]

29. isn't that the definition of a classical liberal?

or am i mistaken.

[MercutioATC]

30. Well, yeah, but some people have bizarre definitions of "liberal".

I just wanted to specify what flavor I am.

[LeftishBrit]

31. Lefty-liberal-everything

I think that the current political culture splits social from economic leftism more than it should. I've said before that social liberalism without economic leftism* is only socially liberal for those who can afford it (the threat of severe poverty is as coercive as the threat of social ostracism or legal punishment), and that economic leftism without social liberalism is only economically left-wing for the favoured groups.

*I say economic 'leftism' rather than liberalism, because in the UK 'economic liberal' means the opposite of what it does in the USA. 'Socially liberal' is used in the same way in the two countries.

[porphyrian]

37. Good point, and I did not know about that quirk of terminology.

Do you think people in the UK have a better grasp of issues of class than Americans do, since you actually have aristocracy, or is that not so much an issue these days? I ask because people who are very rich in this country, like Romney, practically live in an entirely different world from the rest of us and both groups seem painfully unaware of what each other actually live like (beyond celebrity worship and reality TV, anyway). I'm just curious. Thanks.

[LeftishBrit]

50. It's a complicated issue..

I think class is much more based on money rather than ancestry these days than in the past (though the latter can affect the former!), but there is still a fair bit of the old-fashioned class system around. Within the Tory party there's a significant amount of rivalry and resentment between the old-fashioned aristocratic types, like Cameron and Osborne, and the self-made 'upwardly-mobile' types, like Thatcher of course, David Davis and Nadine Dorries. As far as I can see, neither type has much empathy for poorer people: the first group tend to see them as oiks who need to stay in their place and not get uppitty; the second group tends to see them as idlers who could perfectly well get richer if they tried, and who therefore don't deserve help. The worst Tories combine elements of both attitudes.

[porphyrian]

52. Madness. Thanks.

I'm trying to compare my American experience with those of other countries, and I've found that some of the most helpful items to my global understanding are the tiny day-to-day items we take for granted or as a given. I very much appreciate your summary for this reason. It also helps me understand one of the factors leading to your response in the poll, where you are coming from. Thanks again.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Socially liberal, economically pro-capitalism and pro-free trade (like Obama) (nt)

[Starry Messenger]

33. Communist.

I think social factors are closely tied to economic factors. I don't think it is a coincidence that all of the worst bigots are also very pro-free market and anti-worker.

[porphyrian]

40. It's my experience that the factors are tied together as well, so the distinction is arbitrary.

I don't know if all of the worst bigots are pro-free market and anti-worker, but pro-free market, anti-worker people tend to be huge bigots. Thanks.

[socialist_n_TN]

42. As am I, although of a different tendency........

And I would add that political factors are also tied to the social and economic. It's all interconnected.

[Starry Messenger]

66. +1 to all of that.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

34. radical left on economic issues, libertarian on civil liberties.

Last edited Tue Aug 28, 2012, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Economic policies and social issues go hand and hand. I think we should try to move away from profit motives towards economic and environmental equality and sustainability. The right to adequate (and a minimum roughly equal) share of food, shelter, and education should be a universal right. People's needs should come before people's greed.

At the same time, I don't believe in nanny state-ism, onerous laws and expensive convoluted legal systems, authoritarianism, censorship, government secrecy, or imperialism. History has proven time and again that an Authority always becomes corrupt and abusive.

[porphyrian]

43. I agree; corporations prove time and again that they will kill people for profit.

If we don't put people first, corporations certainly won't (not for those who can't pay, anyway).

I'm thinking a good place to start would be to explicitly deny "corporate personhood" in law. Otherwise, precedent makes it so and profiteers get to argue that their business deserves the rights of a citizen, even though they aren't a person and have no responsibility (except to their stock holders) or accountability for their actions (they just dissolve that corporation and start another one).

[GreenPartyVoter]

36. I am the first one, and my sig line can back that up for me. :^)

[porphyrian]

44. I just checked, and I'm still lefty-lefter than Ghandi or Mandela. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Me too. :^D

[SilveryMoon]

38. Far left.

Economic-Somewhere in the Socialist category.

Socially-Don't know how to describe myself. I'm more of a "if it's not hurting other people, I don't really care and think other people should mind their business." category.

[porphyrian]

45. Check out the Political Compass...

It's another arbitrary categorization, but it goes in two dimensions rather than one (left v. right economics and authoritarian v. libertarian). They have graphed a number of real world leaders based on their official stances so that you can see how you compare to them. Here it is: http://www.politicalcompass.org/.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

60. I'm like Ghandi, only slight more libertarian...

[SilveryMoon]

67. Thanks for this.

This is interesting.

[tama]

39. Social libertarian first

lefty second, and where I live 'liberal' means laissez-fair capitalists who are not interested in cultural wars against minorities and women.

[porphyrian]

46. Is that in the UK? Another poster said that was true over there. n/t

[tama]

48. Me Finland

but the meaning of 'liberal' is similar in all of Europe.

ON DU it's became evident to my euro-point of view how confusing the scope of the American meanings of the word can be, as both and anything between lefty-left socialists and neoliberal Friedmaniacs can and do refer to themselves as 'liberals'. Or be also very authoritarian, which is contrasted with the word libertarian, not liberal.

[porphyrian]

53. We Americans revolted, took the English language, bastardized it into slang...

...and believe we invented it. We even have the nerve to still call it English. I'm never surprised that we use a word differently than the rest of the world, but it's good to know when those instances occur. Thanks.

[tama]

57. As a student and friend

of linguistic variation, I don't have problem with that, on the contrary.

The problem is the social reality that language reflects, e.g. that in US 'socialism' is still a word that is demonized in public speech and not kosher to identify with by many socialists and social democrats who call themselves 'liberals' and 'progressives'. According to the 2-dimensional political compass mentioned also in this thread and the OP poll great majority of DUers are lefty-left socialists. Practically all in the South-West corner of the political compass. According to which Obama is in the opposite North-East corner, only inch away Romney even bit further to N-E. Trustworthiness of political compass can be questioned and small differences cab be significant, but it strikes me odd that DUers and Obama are in opposite corners of the compass. And it reminds me that Chomsky has said (based on studies) on social issues most Americans are far to the left of both parties.

[porphyrian]

58. I believe Chomsky is correct there.

It befuddles me, but that appears to be the case when you talk directly to people. I think part of it is how questions are posed to us. For example, if you ask the same group of people whether they support womens' freedom to choose what medical procedures are performed on them and whether they support the murder of unborn fetuses, you will likely get different answers even though the questions are designed to measure the group's stand on abortion. Another part of the problems is our two party system and the failure to date to effectively implement a third or more parties; our choice is reduced to voting for who best represents us, though neither candidate may do so very well. It must seem pretty crazy from the outside.

[tama]

63. Crazy yes,

but not looking from outside. Same insanity everywhere, also with multiparty systems. So I've personally concluded that the problem is structural and in the representative systems and centralized political parties and other power hierarchies themselves.

[raouldukelives]

41. Lefty left. Social & economic.

Especially economic as of late. With the advent of our knowledge of climate change. Supporting free trade, pro-corporate, Wall St mentalities is only leading all of our coming generations and the helpless animals & nature into massive suffering. Being a liberal I think standing against that happening and doing all you can not to cause it or profit from causing it is a given.

[SQUEE]

47. Proud urban peasant.

a post-Focos believer in resistence.
I admire the ideas of Gramsci and Raul Sendic but truly hope that we never have to resort to their methods.

[Odin2005]

51. I'm a full-blown Socialist

I want to nationalize the energy industry and turn the corporations into co-ops.

[Jennicut]

54. Liberal on almost every issue.

Maybe more left-libertarian on legalizing drugs/prostitution. Repubs like to interfere in people's bedrooms and that really makes my skin crawl. Straight out libertarians scare the hell out of me with their "do nothing about nothing" attitude. And economically I am for keeping a safety net for those that need it. I am also hoping we will one day get a health care system that works better. That is personal for me as I have type 1 diabetes. Those that are against stem cell research and against improving health care really don't care about people like me and think we are simply a burden on the system.

[mike_c]

55. socialist....

eom

[Zorra]

56. Already way gone beyond left. Anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders

is either still waiting for the train, or has already missed it.

[Rochester]

59. Far left on economic issues, mixed/moderate on social issues

The fourth option seems to be best for me, if conservative in this context means conservative by Democratic standards.

[Throd]

61. Flaming moderate.

[SmileyRose]

62. Fiscal conservative / libertarian social / protectionist foreign

Fiscal Conservative means spend whatever is actually needed as frugally as possible and pay for it as we go.

Libertarian Social means live and let live as long as innocents don't get hurt.



Goods and services provided by our own workers should enjoy a preferred status.

Imported goods, services and laborers should have extra taxes and extra consumer testing attached and should be barred from entry if those foreign workers and the environment in the country of origin aren't to American standards (good working conditional and environmental protections)

The US should mind it's own business and meddle in another country's affairs only under the most extreme circumstance and even then only as a member of an international coalition (and maybe not even then).

[NashvilleLefty]

64. I used to be considered a Centrist,

but the country has moved so far to the right that I am now considered a Left-Liberal. At least according to every test I've taken.

[LanternWaste]

65. I stand next to one person, and he calls me a liberal bleeding-heart...

I stand next to one person, and he calls me a liberal bleeding-heart. I stand next to his neighbor, and he calls me a fascist-pig.

I think these days, one's spot on the political spectrum is predicated on which loudmouth we may end up standing next to...