I was an antivaxer, nineteen years ago.

[Dream Girl]

I was freaked out about potential autism during my pregnancy so I chose to withhold my son’s vaccinations until he was older and ready for school. I knew someone who’s kid was totally normal until he got his MMR at around 14 or 16 months. He turned out to be severely autistic and will not be able to ever live independently. With the exception of pertussis and a few others most of my sons shots were well behind the recommended schedule especially MMR. I don’t know if I would make the same decision today, antivaxers are so reviled...but I might. What I don’t get is if your kid is vaccinated, how are they endangered by kids who aren’t vaccinated? Isn’t the point of getting them vaccinated to protect them from contagion? So why does it matter.

[Cal Carpenter]

1. Do you believe that the vaccine caused that child's autism?

Because there is no credible evidence that it does so. Autism symptoms generally begin to show in children between 12 and 18 months. It has nothing to do with the vaccines but coincidental timing.

[Dream Girl]

6. I honestly don't know and I'm aware of the coincidental timing.

I’m not stupid, I was just not willing to take that risk with my child. I recently had lunch with my son and he was telling me about a friend of his with two autistic siblings who’s parents now blame vaccinations for their kids autism. I shared with my son that I chose not to vaccinate him on schedule and he said he was glad I made that choice.

[Cal Carpenter]

13. Well, there are plenty of peer-reviewed scientific studies

indicating that there is no causal connection between autism and vaccines.

There was one study in 1998 that allegedly showed that there is a connection. It has long been debunked and the doctor (Wakefield) who led the study has been discredited. In fact, he lost his license. It wasn't even a thorough study - simply a case study of 12 patients, all of whom later identified their cases as having been manipulated in the final journal article by Wakefield. The amount of damage done by that one fraudulent 'study' is horrifying. Here we are 20 years later and there is an OUTBREAK in my community (SE Michigan) due to people who are choosing not to vaccinate.

I never implied you are stupid. You asked a question and I am trying to give helpful answers.

[Dream Girl]

16. My son was born in early 2000 so that was Wakefield study must have been in the ether

at the time.

[Chakaconcarne]

17. 19 years ago we knew a lot less than we do now.....

As a parent it's understandable that one would wish to do whatever possible to protect their child...

I'd say you made an absolutely reasonable decision to alter the schedule to reduce that risk.

[Blue_true]

64. Yeah, I don't blame her, even as I believe the decision she made was sketchy.

She made to decision out of love for her child and wanting the best life for him. She seems to have taken a relatively reasonable approach given her choice.

My family was poor. The only vaccines that I got was smallpox and polio in two stages through my elementary school. I knew two kids in school who were affected by polio, one with a shrunken leg, the other more severe, both legs and had to walk with crutches to move around. We did not get the measles, mumps or chickenpox vaccines and one or all of the younger kids in my family, including me, got one or all those ailments. In hindsight, I don't blame my parents, they did the best they could.

Would I not vaccinate kids or delay their vaccinations if I had kids? I don't know. I would likely ask a lot of questions from a number of medical experts before the first was born and then go from there.

[obamanut2012]

74. "I was just not willing to take that risk with my child" -- THERE WAS AN DIS NO RISK

You need to edit your OP, because you are still an anti vaxxer to some extent.

[handmade34]

2. there are a few

people that truly can't be vaccinated (for various reasons) and we are protecting them

[Dream Girl]

8. That makes sense.

[Aristus]

19. Of course it does. It's science. The best knowledge we have available.

Anti-vaxxer 'concerns' run from being misguided to being seriously, dangerously idiotic. Everyone who can get an immunization (and the only ones who can't are the ones with an allergy to the vaccine or its component parts; everyone who comes to me with a 'religious' objection gets sent away again to somebody who suffers fools gladly...) should. The more people who get vaccinated, the greater the 'herd immunity', the zone with which we try to shield and protect those who can't be immunized.

If it's offered, that means it's safe. To hell with such great medical thinkers as Jenny McCarthy and Aidan Quinn. If it's available, that means it's safe. A number of years ago, a vaccine was developed against Yersinia pestis, or Black Plague. It was poorly-effective and came with intolerable side effects. So it was withdrawn. So to reiterate: if it's offered, it's safe.

Your friend's child didn't get autism from his vaccines; he got it because sometimes kids get autism. Correlation does not equal causation. And even if it did, it wouldn't apply in this case because vaccines do not cause autism. The doctor who said it did had his medical license yanked and his (falsified) report discredited.

And finally, since so many people hit me with a 'religous' objection, here's a little religion: there's a passage in the Bible: "He that spareth the rod hateth his son. (Usually misquoted as "Spare the rod and spoil the child".) An accurate paraphrase would be "He that spareth the vaccines hateth his son."

Get your child vaccinated.

[snort]

41. You're sooo much more kind than I.

Well stated.

[Ms. Toad]

56. You do realize this is completely illogical.

If it's offered, that means it's safe. To hell with such great medical thinkers as Jenny McCarthy and Aidan Quinn. If it's available, that means it's safe. A number of years ago, a vaccine was developed against Yersinia pestis, or Black Plague. It was poorly-effective and came with intolerable side effects. So it was withdrawn. So to reiterate: if it's offered, it's safe.

Every vaccination or drug that is withdrawn was, prior to being withdrawn, "offered," AND not safe.

[Aristus]

59. The drug manufacturers themselves admitted that the vaccine was

ineffective and potentially harmful. The only one saying this about the current vaccine protocol are anti-vaxxers, whose position has already been discredited.

The point of my assertion above is that if anyone above the level of garden-variety idiots and Playboy Playmates had a valid concern about vaccines, they would have been withdrawn long ago.

[Ms. Toad]

72. That is not what you said.

You made a categorical statement that mere offering of a vaccine means the vaccine is safe. That is wrong, as a general principle (according to a report in CNN, nearly 1/3 of drugs "offered" are unsafe to some degree). https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/health/fda-approval-drug-events-study/index.html

As to your current assertion regarding, "they would have been withdrawn long ago" if they were unsafe - Drugs have been "offered," for deacades before being withdrawn as unsafe. Darvon & Darvocet - withdrawn after 55 years of being offered, DES withdrawn after 31 years of being offered, PTZ and Metrazol - after 48 years of being noffered, Accutane - after 27 years of use. Many vaccines have been offered for far longer than these medications.

Using the mere length of time something has been offered as an indicator of safety is also illogical (although at least not contradicted within your own statement).

(I'm not arguing that most vaccines are unsafe, or that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh any personal or societal risks associated with not taking them. I'm merely fed up with the dismissive and condescending illogical, and false - at least by omission - sound bites to shut down discussion.)

[Crunchy Frog]

62. I know that when my twin sons were babies

There were a couple of vaccines that had been pulled for being too risky and replaced with safer ones, relatively recently.

Nothing is 100% safe, and there are occasional injuries or bad reactions with any of them.

It's possible to acknowledge the truth of that while still accepting that there's far less harm done in vaccinating everyone than in allowing massive outbreaks of serious illnesses.

[Ms. Toad]

71. I was specifically addressing the comment that "if it's offered, that means it's safe."

This is untrue, as a general matter. Think Thalidomide or DES. Or read this sreport by CNN - indicating nearly 1/3 or drugs "offered" were unsafe, to some degree. Offering these drugs did NOT mean they were safe.

Specifically, the poster contradicted their assertion within their own text.

The statement I called out was not a comparison of harms. It was blanket assertion that the fact that a vaccine is offere means it is safe.

[Crunchy Frog]

81. I was agreeing with you in a roundabout way.

Specifically, it was the whole cell DPT vaccine that was found to be unacceptably risky, and was eventually replaced with the safer DTaP, and that happened not long before my sons were born.

There were also problems with a rotavirus vaccine that led to its replacement by a safer (but not completely safe) version, also not long before my sons were born.

The fact that some vaccines get pulled to due safety concerns and replaced by safer versions is proof that "if it's offered, that means it's safe." is untrue. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a tacit admission that serious injuries sometimes occur due to vaccinations.

I don't think it's helpful when health professionals claim absolute safety when it simply isn't true, and it probably contributes to the atmosphere of mistrust.

I also don't think that demonizing parents who have concerns is constructive in any way.

Sorry for the rambling.

[Ms. Toad]

82. Thanks.

The demonizing, paternalism, condescending "conversations" around here drive me nuts.

There are nuances - but the minute anyone steps out of line, even for valid, science-based reasons, all hell descends. "Conversations" that do not allow for informed, respectful discussions, just amplify divisions by forcing people to choose one end or another of the spectrum. That's thinking I typically associate with conservatives, but it crops up here way too often an a few hot button issues.

[Crunchy Frog]

84. Agree on that.

It's why I almost never participate in these sorts of threads. Even the mildest perceived dissent is met with a virtual lynch mob mentality. It's just not worth it to me to even engage.

I admire your courage on this thread, but I don't share it.

[Aristus]

88. If an anti-vaxxer doesn't like being 'demonized', that's just too damn bad.

Kids are getting sick because these blockheads are refusing to get their kids immunized. Diseases we thought we'd knocked are now making a comeback. I'm not going to spare the precious feelings of these people just because they don't like being treated like the dangerous idiots they are.

[Ms. Toad]

92. The problem is that people on DU demonize everyone

who is not lockstep vaccinate everyone for everything. No issue is purely black and white, but this is a conversation in which DU members act like conservative idiots: My way, or the highway; there are no shades or gray - or (gasp) colors.

That is not the way intelligent, informed people carry on conversations.

[Aristus]

99. It's the way intelligent, informed people practice medicine.

If a mother brings her kids in for well-child exams, I like to think she's availing herself of modern allopathic medicine. But when she pulls out 'religious exemption' forms for school vaccines for me to sign, I tell her to hit the bricks. Get your kids vaccinated or get out. I no longer even try to be polite.

It's not a matter of black and white. It's a matter of all available scientific evidence points to the safety and efficacy of vaccines for the prevention of preventable diseases, and all information pointing to vaccines as a risk for autism has either been misinterpreted or deliberately falsified.

[Ms. Toad]

102. This is a discussion board,

not your medical office.

It is nice to hear that you agree that it is not back and white. Then the discussions here ought not demonize people who point out the shades of gray and colors between black and white - but they do. The way your first paragraph suggests you treat your own patients.

[Aristus]

104. If by 'this is a discussion board', you mean: 'both sides need to be equally represented', then no.

This isn't a discussion like "Is the rose really the prettiest flower? Discuss!".

Just as with climate change and its deniers, on this issue, both sides do not have equal validity. Vaccines are safe, effective, and save millions of lives. Saying, implying, or even hinting that they are not is morally reprehensible.

[Ms. Toad]

112. Thank you for proving my point.

After you acknowledged it is not black and white, you've now set up a strawman by by putting words in my mouth that I've never said, so you can assert the only rational position is yours and shut down any possibility of a conversation about the areas that are not black and white.

[womanofthehills]

93. There are nuances and there is a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program run by Health & Human Services

The government has paid out over four billion dollars for vaccine injury so we should be able to have discussions about this without name calling.

[Ms. Toad]

95. Yup.

I find the fact that we can't extremely frustrating.

[StarryNite]

86. "sometimes kids get autism"

United States. CDC's most recent estimate is that 1 out of every 59 children, or 16.8 per 1,000, have some form of ASD as of 2014.

That is way more than "sometimes". What has changed to make the incidence of autism jump that high?

[Aristus]

87. Not vaccines.

More than anything else, it's the improved ability to diagnose it properly.

It's like saying: "Why doesn't anyone get diagnosed with the vapors anymore? Is it some kind of sinister medical conspiracy?" No, it's just that 'the vapors' was a vague catch-all term that was used to explain medical conditions from gas to anxiety to schizophrenia.

Not everything is some deep-state protocol to keep the truth from the people......

[Codeine]

90. Did the incidence really change

or is this increase a function of new diagnostic guidelines and a general increase in testing and evaluation? There were plenty of “different” kids when I went to school, many of whom would probably be diagnosed as being in the spectrum nowadays — back then they were just considered weirdos.

[jberryhill]

100. Yup

In retrospect, I can think of a few undiagnosed "weirdos".

[marybourg]

3. Kids who are vaccinated aren't endangered by kids who are not vaccinated.

The people who are endangered are those too young to have been vaccinated and those who, for medical reasons, e.g. those who have received organ transplants, cannot be vaccinated.

[lagomorph777]

15. Not entirely accurate.

Vaccines are not 100% protective. For example, the flu vaccine failed this year for myself and many of my co-workers.

However, the more people who are vaccinated, the lower the incidence of the disease in the "herd". That helps protect those of us who got the vaccine but who for some reason didn't respond to it.

[Chakaconcarne]

20. You were exposed to a strain the flu vaccine doesn't cover most likely....

Which is about 70% of the time over the last decade it seems.....

Washing your hands provides better protection than the flu vaccine.

[lagomorph777]

23. For that reason, flu is probably a crappy example.

There are many vaccines though, which are covering the right strains (and the strains are far less volatile than flu), but not everybody responds fully to them.

[Aristus]

29. Please don't ever say that again. At least not here.

Anyone who says "X is better protection against the flu than the flu vaccine" I'm gonna bust like a cheap pinata. It's fun to throw shade on the flu vaccine; that's why so many people do it. And that's because there is no one alive today who was alive during the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918-1919.

How soon we forget. Millions of people died because there wasn't a vaccine for it. If we had had the knowledge at the time, we could have made one that would have saved millions of lives. The way I know this is because millions of people contracted a weaker strain of the Flu early in the epidemic, and recovered. When the much stronger, deadlier strain emerged later in 1918, the people who had gotten the earlier strain survived due to their acquired immunity. if we had been able to synthesize that immunity, we could have saved millions of lives.

See my other post about the efficacy of partial immunity, and remember it. Smug declarations of "Well, you know, it's not 100% effective" don't fly with me, and with few other medical professionals. If you're going to spread misleading information, do it at an anti-vaxxer site, and not here, where you are going to be called out in the strongest of terms.

[Blue_true]

65. There is some information that the 1918 Spanish Flu

was caused by a rare genetic mutation. If something like that happened today, how can the first people exposed protect themselves other than by wearing face masks and washing their hands and not touching public doors? By it's nature the 1918 SF was resistant to every vaccine of that time. Of course governments, including our own, ignoring the early signs did not help matters.

You seem to be a knowledgeable person on this area, so I won't get into a debate with you. But to criticize a person for doing something that is commonsense and known to help when faced with an unknown seems over the top. I come from the engineering world, we generally consider something that is 30% effective to be a failure and we start examining why, while taking protective measures to not do more damage.

[Aristus]

68. Okay, whoa. Back up. I didn't say don't wash your hands.

Or don't take common sense precautions. I said get your vaccines. They are the most reliable way of preventing preventable diseases.

[Blue_true]

85. Okay, thanks. nt

[womanofthehills]

96. People who have allergies need to check out the different flu shots offered by different companies

to make sure there are no ingredients they are allergic to. People don't realize there are nine different flu shots with very different ingredients made by five different pharma companies.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

Here is a chart from CDC - little children with asthma are at particular risk


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaxsupply.htm

[Aristus]

98. Exactly. There are people out there who have a genuine allergy to the vaccine or its components.

They're the ones we need to be protecting with herd immunity. They have the only valid contraindication to the vaccine. "Jenny McCarthy showed me her boobies, and oh, by the way, don't get vaccinated" is not a valid contraindication.

[GulfCoast66]

57. I'm calling Bullshit!

Seriously, washing your hands? Better than a vaccine.

Even if the Vaccine only hits it perfectly 25% of the time, that means a 25% reduction in the flu. And even an imperfect match can be the difference between being really sick and really dead.

10s of thousands of Americans die from the flu each year. Hand washing ain’t stopping that.

And when a bad one comes like a hundred years ago, and it will, washing hand will only insure lots of people die with clean hands.

This is a fact based community. You are not posting facts.

[Blue_true]

66. Washing hands and wearing mouth/nose masks improves one's chances.

But yes, people should get vaccinated, even if the vaccine is only 10% effective, it just adds a key layer of protection.

With the anti-science tilt of the Trump Administrstion and it's removing proven regulations, I think that we are more and more naked to deadly disease outbreaks. We are already seeing some signs that Trump's removal of Obama Administration farm irrigation and livestock drinking water standards was a very bad idea.

[obamanut2012]

75. Yeah, you are 100% wrong -- show the evidence

Show us actual proof that washing your hands is better than the flu vax.

Ridiculous posts in this thread.

[Aristus]

25. It didn't fail. You're still alive.

With the flu, even an effectiveness level as low as 25% can be the difference between life and death. The Spanish Flu taught us that. Vaccines aren't expected to be 100% effective. Anyone holding out for 100% is kidding him or herself, and misleading everyone around you. They are intended to be as effective as possible for as many patients as possible. And they are.

Waiving people off of their vaccines with tales of 'Not 100% Effective' is the tactic of the misinformed or the concern troll. So which is it?

[lagomorph777]

27. Oh nice. It's neither.

Nice try though.

I am pro-vaccine and I get my flu shot annually. I also keep my pets up to date on vaccines and titers. If I had kids I'd do the same.

If what I got this year was 25% protection, yeah, another 25% of sickness probably would have been fatal.

So put down the weapon there.

Also, pretending that all vaccines are 100% effective won't help bolster credibility for sensible vaccination programs. Better to honestly explain the factors that help or hinder effectiveness in the population. Such as herd immunity. And such as (in real life) flu mutating too fast to build every strain in, every year. I have always heard the problem with flu vaccine specifically, as the high rate of mutation. Not partial effectiveness despite accurately hitting the strains.

[Aristus]

32. I'm sorry. I have to do this every few months with people who either hadn't got the word

that I don't suffer anti-vaxxer fools lightly, or just like to rattle my cage. Either way, I'm going to call out even perceived anti-vaxx posts. As a Physician Assistant working in Primary Care, it's my duty.

[lagomorph777]

34. It's not your duty to alienate your allies.

[Aristus]

37. If what someone says convinces someone else to forego their vaccines, that person is not

an ally.

Opponents of preventable diseases need all the allies we can get. But I'm not getting in bed with anyone who expresses 'concerns'.

[lagomorph777]

40. You somehow interpreted my original post and got the opposite of the intended meaning from it.

Re-reading it, I think you had to work pretty hard to do that.

[LanternWaste]

39. If the choice is to allow irrational belief systems placing others at harm

If the choice is to allow irrational belief systems* placing others at harm or alienate one person, which choice would you make?

(*lacking objective evidence to support a premise while simultaneously arguing against a premise supported by objected evidence is, by its very nature and definition, an irrational belief system)

[lagomorph777]

42. What a rathole we've gone down. You guys, in your minds, have decided that an argument for

herd immunity being a great reason to get vaccinated, is somehow irrational or anti-vaxer.

Totally creepy, guys. And hugely counter-productive.

[RobinA]

94. Good Luck

trying to convince these people that they can’t get someone to agree with them by bludgeoning them into submission. Some people just don’t get it.

[lagomorph777]

103. Or in this case, taking somebody who agrees with them, and bludgeoning them anyway.

It's just sick. Pun intended.

[redwitch]

28. I sometimes go walking in our local cemetery.

It is so very sad to see the headstones of the families that lost all of their children to the flu pandemic. I think people should vaccinate. Lessening the effects of awful diseases or avoiding them entirely sure seems like a great idea to me.

[Aristus]

33. Thank you.

Our distance from the suffering is one of the reasons we have anti-vaxxers. They come at the issue backwards: "Hey! Nobody dies from the flu anymore! So I don't need to get my vaccine!' instead of "Vaccines are one of the reasons huge numbers of people don't die from the flu anymore."

[snort]

43. Years ago I was involved in the restoration of a Pioneer Cemetery.

The spike in deaths for 1918~1919 was large and way too many of them were children.

[redwitch]

50. WWI and the flu pandemic back to back.

What a horrid time!

[Aristus]

54. One of the vectors for the spread of the flu overseas was American

soldiers headed to France for the war.

[marybourg]

46. Right, but I wasn't writing a treatise, just

trying to enlighten a puzzled person.

[Mariana]

38. Some of the vaccinated kids are endangered.

No vaccine works 100% of the time for 100% of the people who take it. You know, just like every single other medication, treatment, or preventative that exists.

[marybourg]

45. Right, but I wasn't writing a treatise.

[Mariana]

47. You wrote a false statement.

You reinforced the OP's incorrect belief that vaccinated people are at zero risk from unvaccinated people. I want to make sure the OP understands that you and she are wrong about that.

[ismnotwasm]

4. Really?

Because you titers can be low, you can immunosuppressed or Ill. Vaccine don’t cover perfectly. I have an autistic grandson. Blaming vaccines for his condition is bullshit. As far as I’m concerned the entire anti-vax movement should be charged with manslaughter.

[nini]

26. if they're blaming MMR for their autism issues

they're idiots who believe conspiracy theories.

No time to be sympathetic to idiots, who by their actions, put other people at risk. Those compromised kids with legit issues who cannot get the vaccines.

[obamanut2012]

76. +1

[loyalsister]

31. Many parents are thinking of themselves when they buy into the vaccine-autism connection

Autistic self advocates consider the anti-vax movement hateful. They have a point. The message is pretty personal, "I would rather my kid risk serious illness or death rather than be "like you."
It is especially disturbing when there is self interest tied to that kind of hate.

[ismnotwasm]

48. I adore my grandson

But my daughter has to deal with a lot of looks and judgment because he is “other” and she lives in a very rural, politically very red community. Anyway he’s 7 and speaks very little, just a few words when he feels like it. He squawks and makes other noises quite often though.

Physical he’s perfect. He has a beautiful laugh. He loves nature. My daughter has a few livestock animals and calls him “the goat whisperer” To communicate well, I go into his world, and it’s a place of wonder and sensory input.

[loyalsister]

51. I understand that parents are faced with something that is more complicated than expected

But that's true in many cases. Some kids are a different sex than what their parents wanted and hoped for. It's useful to know that parental concern for othering coming from outsiders can easily be inadvertantly directed toward the kid from the parents and it is damaging. I know this from experience.

[mcar]

53. That's beautiful

You meet your grandson where he is.

My friend has an autistic son who just turned 15. The last few (puberty) years have been difficult. But, she just posted photos of his birthday party with friends. He's also draws some really cool comics!

[Cal Carpenter]

5. As to your last questions:

There is a wealth of info out there about how the deliberately unvaccinated put others at risk (including those with weakened immune systems, those whose vaccine wasn't 100% effective, those who have allergies to ingredients in a vaccine and cannot be vaccinated, etc). This source is pretty straightforward, but it gives plenty of examples and quick description of 'herd immunity. A quick google will get you plenty of more detailed info:

https://www.verywellhealth.com/who-is-at-risk-from-unvaccinated-kids-2634420

[MaryMagdaline]

101. Thank you. This is very informative. I posted it on FB in case there are anti-vaxers among

Family and friends

[CentralMass]

7. Here are a few related articles.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/vaccine-decision/no-vaccination.html

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/10/not-vaccinating-children-is-the-greater-risk/

[Cousin Dupree]

9. Why would we worry about children who aren't vaccinated? Are you serious?

[Dream Girl]

24. I wasn't aware that there were kids who were unvaccinated not by choice.

[Cousin Dupree]

30. I certainly don't mean to be snippy, but when you make such a serious medical decision,

it would be a good idea to become educated about every possible consequence of your decision. I’m a nurse and have seen the results of misinformed medical decisions. We are all part of a community. We don’t live in little bubbles within our homes. We need to be responsible for not only ourselves but also for our communities. With that said, thanks for bringing this topic up. You just happened to hit a nerve!

[Mariana]

49. No, you apparently think vaccines work 100% of the time

for everyone who takes them. It is not so. Just like every single other medication, treatment, and preventative, sometimes they fail.

[Aristus]

55. Okay. That's it. Time out. I'm going to stand with my medical colleague

here and call you out.

No one is saying all vaccines work 100% of the time for 100% of the patients who get them.

What we say is that vaccines are a reliable preventive against preventable diseases. And that responsible parents who love their children and want to keep them safe and healthy ensure that their children get their vaccines.

If you're just trying to stir up trouble, well done; you succeeded. Take a victory lap. And then leave the vaccine science to those of us who know what we're talking about. Which doesn't include, by the way, Jenny McCarthy, Aidan Quinn, or Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey is a hilariously gifted comedian, not a medical professional. And Jenny McCarthy? Looks good in a bikini, I guess...

[Mariana]

80. Sorry, some people DO say, or imply, that vaccines work 100% of the time.

I was answering the person who wrote the OP of the thread, which contained this statement: What I don’t get is if your kid is vaccinated, how are they endangered by kids who aren’t vaccinated? Isn’t the point of getting them vaccinated to protect them from contagion? So why does it matter.

She clearly believes that vaccines work 100% of the time, and therefore unvaccinated people present zero threat to vaccinated people. And, she's using that incorrect belief as an excuse for her anti-vaccine bullshit.

[obamanut2012]

77. And infants, and people having chemo, etc.

Not vaxxing your kid literally put people's possibly deaths in your hands.

[Dream Girl]

10. It's a nonissue for me now as I won't be raising any babies. Being African American,lets just say I

Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Have had some level of mistrust with the medical establishment

[ismnotwasm]

14. It's not an "non-issue" for me because I'm a nurse I get exposed to this shit.

Last time it was as pertussis I had to get a booster and take antibiotics. I’m just waiting for measles, because I know it will happen. I work with an immunosuppressed population.

[Dream Girl]

22. It was a nurse who convinced me to have my son vaccinated against pertussis

I’m sorry that you were exposed. As I said, my son did eventually get everything. This was almost 20 years ago, so I haven’t really given it much thought lately. I just saw a discussion about it on tv and started wondering about why the big deal with people who choose to have their kids vaccinated. Thanks to the numerous responses in this thread, I get it now. I’m not well versed in medical issues, obviously...

[ismnotwasm]

35. .

[nini]

58. I give you lots of credit

You asked and took the heat but listened.

I'm glad it helped answer some questions that were fuzzy to you before.

[Crunchy Frog]

61. Some people think that providing accurate information in a civil manner

Is a less effective means of persuasion than acting like a total dick.

I'm glad that not everyone who responded to you here felt the need to be a dick.

[obamanut2012]

79. lulz

[womanofthehills]

105. One problem - the pharma companies who make vaccines are required to send safety studies to Congress

every 6 months and non of them complied ever. They were recently taken to court over this.

[Codeine]

111. Do you have a non-whackadoo cite for this? nt

[womanofthehills]

113. Here is a doc filed in Southern District of NY

http://icandecide.org/government/ICAN-HHS-Stipulated-Order-July-2018.pdf

�ICAN was therefore forced to file a lawsuit to force HHS to either provide copies of its biennial vaccine safety reports to Congress or admit it never filed these reports. The result of the lawsuit is that HHS had to finally and shockingly admit that it never, not even once, submitted a single biennial report to Congress detailing the improvements in vaccine safety. This speaks volumes to the seriousness by which vaccine safety is treated at HHS and heightens the concern that HHS doesn’t have a clue as to the actual safety profile of the now 29 doses, and growing, of vaccines given by one year of age.

[Codeine]

114. Thank you. That's definitely a whackadoo group

but it does look like the reports genuinely weren’t filed as required.

[janterry]

11. Herd immunity

n/t

[grantcart]

97. +1

[Act_of_Reparation]

12. Because some people *CAN'T* get vaccinated and there is a minimum threshold for herd immunity.

Some people are immune-compromised and cannot get vaccinated. Some people are allergic to the vaccines and cannot get vaccinated. They avoid getting sick because everyone around them is immune. In order to maintain this herd immunity, a certain percentage of the population must be vaccinated.

[ReformedGOPer]

108. There are younger children, infants, in day care that have only had the beginning rounds of shots.

They aren't completed protected yet, and exposing unvaccinated children to them is irresponsible.

[Goodheart]

21. Your story reminds me of the little boy across the street

He seemed completely normal for the first 10 months of his life.... then he didn't develop mentally and behaviorally as most children do.

Isn't that the lesson of this story? It's very easy and UNSOUND to blame a vaccination for development when there was no way to tell them apart in the first place.

Why does it matter? Because unprotected children can be seriously harmed for the rest of their lives (or even die) without the vaccinations, and if your child is autistic in the first place you've dealt him/her a double whammy.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

36. As the mother of a mildly autistic son,

I can go ballistic when people claim vaccines cause autism.

In some kinds of autism the child develops quite normally for a year or so, then stops and then regresses. In other kinds (like my son's Asperger's) he was always different. Always. Because he was my first I didn't recognize for a very long time that he was diagnostically different from other kids. Plus, he met his developmental milestones at appropriate ages.

The other thing idiots who believe that vaccines cause autism need to think about, is that autism has been around long before the vaccines. Especially long before the MMR which is the one people like to blame.

[pansypoo53219]

52. i love cemeteries. lots of dead kids before vaccines. can polio come back now???

[Dave Starsky]

70. Ah, yes. Polio.

Ah, the good old days...

[GulfCoast66]

60. Pretty clear to me, reading this OP and some of your responses.

That you are still an anti-vaccer.

You state right in your OP you still might not get your kids vaccinated today.

I recommend you avoid this topic on DU.

We are a fact and science based community. As such no home for vaccine doubters. Plenty of sites are.

Have a nice evening.

[Iggo]

63. Was.

[Hekate]

67. I knew a girl who had mumps encephalitis. My sibs and I were utterly miserable with mumps....

...but we recovered eventually. My baby sister's health was really compromised the rest of her childhood, because the year we got mumps was the year we got everything else, too, and she was just a baby. Imagine: she was under 2 and got measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox. She was the only member of our family who ever got strep throat, and repeatedly at that -- I'm pretty sure because she had weakened immunity from being so sick so young.

But to the other girl, who I met in our teens. She was blind. She had some kind of inner-ear damage because her balance was way off. She walked, with difficulty, using what I thought of as polio braces. She went to the "special school," not the local school her sister attended.

You can bet when the MMR vaccine came along I had my own babes protected.

As for polio, every school had its share of children crippled for life or dead. When the polio vaccine came along, the entire town dragged their kids to the clinic held at my elementary school.

Who is protected, you ask? Well, the unborn, among others. Rubella, aka German measles, is a relatively mild rash and fever. But for a pregnant woman it can cause miscarriage, or an infant born deaf, blind, or both.

Severe measles can infect every inch of the body, including the tongue, genitals, and eyes.

The autism link has been thoroughly debunked, over and over. But my own daughter believes it, fanatically. She gets her information from other moms and from Facebook groups. Someone told her that vaccinations caused her baby girl's SIDS, which I think is an evil thing to say. So none of her other children will ever have vaccinations.

[KitSileya]

69. It fucking matters!

I don’t know if I would make the same decision today, antivaxers are so reviled...but I might. What I don’t get is if your kid is vaccinated, how are they endangered by kids who aren’t vaccinated? Isn’t the point of getting them vaccinated to protect them from contagion? So why does it matter.

It matters for all those who could not get vaccinated due on medical grounds, such a close family member of mine who had a severe allergic reaction to his first vaccine, the MMR. He couldn't get any of the others, but thank God he got the measles as a child (it was a mild case, as he had gotten the first dose of it), not to mention he got the mumps too. If he had gotten the mumps as an adult, he could become sterile. Had he been a girl - well, she might be very unlucky and get german measles during pregnancy, which nearly always leaves the child with a disability, if it survives at all.

It matters for those who are immuno-compromised, such as another close family member who's getting chemotherapy these days. It doesn't matter that she's had all of her vaccines, as at times she has nearly no immune system to speak of. Right now she has to be careful because some contemptible anti-vaxxer traveled while infected with the measles in her town - on a plane (all the passengers had to be tracked down to be checked out), on a train (ditto), and then went to the emergency room. The measles virus can survive for up to two hours when coughed into the air, so you do not even have to be in the same room at the same time as patient zero to be infected. More people are immuno-compromised than you think - the very young, the elderly, many being treated for cancer, heck, even people with Crohn's disease are immuno-compromised.

It matters to those who are too young to be vaccinated. There's a baby boom among my colleagues rght now - four babies born in the last 5 months, and several more expected in the next half year. All these babies won't get their vaccinations at birth, you know, they're spread out and some vaccinations are done twice, like the aforementioned MMR.

For some people the vaccines just don't work. They don't know why, but a small handful never develop the immunity, no matter how often they get a particular vaccine. Those affected by this seldom know it, but unbeknownst to them, they are fully at the mercy of those around them getting their vaccines and protecting them that way. The only way you would know is if you get the disease despite being vaccinated, by which time it's too fucking late, or if you titre to check if a vaccine 'took'. How many of us get titres to check our vaccines? Not many. In other words, you could be unprotected. Your beloved child could be unprotected. As we speak, you could be like the groups above, reliant on everyone else not being fucking numbnuts when it comes to vaccines, hoping against hope that the parents around you don't think that having a child on the autism specter is worse than a dead child, willing to sacrifice other people's babies, grandparents, cancer-ridden siblings in order to magically make sure that their child doesn't get autism.

Yes, it fucking matters!

[obamanut2012]

73. Vaccines did not cause that kid's autism, and educate yourself about herd immunity

Plus, and no snark meant, but you are obviously still an anti vaxxer to some extent, and still believe vax cause autism. The only thing vax cause is herd immunity and for people, esp kids, bot to die.

[jberryhill]

78. Jesus

Vaccines are not 100% effective.

At 90% effectiveness, you need a high rate of compliance to provide relative immunity of the population. In other words, persons CAN become infected if vaccinated, but if enough people are vaccinated, then the disease can’t effectively spread through the vulnerable 10%.

Ignorance is simply not an excuse.

[Farmer-Rick]

83. So as an anti-vaccer which vaccines did you boycott for yourself?

Did you stop getting your Tetanus shot? I just stepped on a rusty nail, went right thru my foot, and live on a farm, I make sure my tetanus is current.

Did you get the shingles vaccine? You sound older and may have to make that decision soon. I watched my wife suffer horribly from shingles. More people kill themselves from the pain of shingles than any other pain.

But if you don't believe in vaccinations, I guess it's not just your child who you are willing to put at risk.

Do you take the TB test? There has been an uptick in TB and many segments of the population have been getting testes due to suspected exposure. Would you let your kid get a TB test and take the antibiotics for it? Or is it simply preventative measures you are opposed to?

How far do your unfounded fears go? Are you willing to risk your own life on it?

[Codeine]

91. Through your foot?!

Holy Jebus!! That must have been brutal.

[Farmer-Rick]

107. Yeah, it was awful. It took over a year before I could walk normally again

But I didn't get tetanus.

[StarryNite]

89. The Vaccine Book

I highly recommend The Vaccine Book by Robert W. Sears, MD, FAAP. This comprehensive guide to vaccinations has a chapter for every childhood vaccination. Each chapter defines the disease, tells how common it is, when the vaccine is given, how it is made, what ingredients are in the final vaccine solution, are any of the ingredients controversial, combination vaccines that contain the vaccine, what the side effects of the vaccine is, reasons to get the vaccine, reasons some people choose not to get the vaccine, options to consider when getting the vaccine, and finally the author's opinion of the necessity of the vaccine.

It is a very informative, easy to read and understand book written by a doctor who is not anti vaccine but who also doesn't not necessarily think every child should automatically be given every vaccine.

[obamanut2012]

106. Sears' medical license has been revoked, and he also has no experience

With epidemiology, infectious diseases, immunology, virology, microbiology, or vaccinology.

"The complaint referred to his treatment of a child known as J.G., treated by Dr. Sears from the age of two on, during 2014-2015. The allegations included negligent treatment of the child and poor record keeping."

"What appears to have happened is that J.G.’s mother claimed that her son experienced reactions after his vaccines, and without obtaining the child’s prior records, Dr. Sears translated them into more severe reactions than described and gave an exemption based on that."...
"In other words, Dr. Sears appeared to have written a letter exempting the child from all future vaccines, a letter that at best was not well-founded, without any real investigation into the fact."

Sears was also disciplined for failing to give a young child a neurological exam after he complained of a headache (his father reportedly had hit the child with a hammer), and for failing to keep proper medical records.

The medical board has required Sears to take a 40-hour medical course for every year of his three-year probation to repair any deficiencies in his practice, to take a medical ethics course and to have a monitor supervise his practice. These were serious charges and penalties that went beyond Sears' well-known advocacy for a non-evidence based "alternative" vaccine schedule.'

He is considered an anti vaxxer, and does not think herd immunity is a thing.

[Downtown Hound]

109. The simple answer to your question is that vaccines are not 100% foolproof

You are MUCH LESS likely to contract a disease if you have been vaccinated against it, somewhere between 90%-98% less likely. But you are not totally immune from it and there is still a chance. If a vaccine is 98% effective, and an infected person comes into contact with 1000 people who are vaccinated, that means they could still infect up to 20 people. And those 20 people could in turn infect more. That's why anti-vaxxers are putting EVERYBODY at risk, not just the unvaccinated.