General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEven if you're a "touchy, feely" guy, do NOT put your hands on a woman without her permission.
If you do, you are violating that woman's personal space, and, yes, you should be ready to face some blowback, especially if there are witnesses and/or pictures. I've had it happen to me. Most women have, and it really sucks.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Of course I could be wrong about that!
Edit: My husband is definitely not comfortable with that.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,487 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Volaris
(10,278 posts)DONT fuckin touch me.
Polybius
(15,518 posts)The person extends their hand first, and it's up to you to decide whether to extend your own hand and shake the person's.
demosincebirth
(12,550 posts)Polybius
(15,518 posts)But I just can't. Great point.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)imtimate with. I've always been that way even as a child. But I don't freak out if somebody touches me. That normal human interaction.
Beartracks
(12,827 posts)hueymahl
(2,510 posts)Sorry, could not help myself - not directed at you. This whole thread reminds me of this scene from Stripes:
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,487 posts)perspectives.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)I came from a large family where we used to hug and kiss our Mom goodbye when we left for school as children. We even fought to get to the head of the line and kiss her first in those days. ) (My Dad left really early for work so we didn't have the same ritual.Somehow over the years it stopped. I guess as we became teens, we thought it was not cool or something to hug or kiss your Mom and Dad.
When I met my future husband, he was a very touchy, hand holding, huggy guy; moreso than I. During our dating it quickly became normal and I liked it. When I met his family for the first time, they were all a touchy, huggy family, and I liked it. No one every departed an event without telling everyone they loved them. Someone asked my husband about it one time, and his response was, "I want my Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, whomever ....to know that I love them while they are alive and can hear it from me." From the first time our families met, my husband hugged everyone, and always kissed everyone goodbye and told everyone, "I Love You". It became our family's normal.
Every group of friends and relatives we have, hugs and kisses when we arrive and when we depart, and it all began with my husband. We hug and kiss our friends hello and goodbye. It is so natural for everyone now and they like it as well. We tell each other we love you still, and they have passed it on to their own families and friends. Our reputation precedes us because whenever someone new gets introduced to our friends and family, or my husband and his friend's car club, and they say "Hello", someone always says "they don't accept handshakes here, you better give them a hug"; and everyone always laughs because they are so used to it. You can tell over the years that they have become a lot more affectionate with their own families, and it's brought us a lot closer as a group and friends.
LAS14
(13,790 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,487 posts)There are other families who aren't physically affectionate who are just as warm, loving and valid as yours. They just don't want as much physical touch as other people, and that's okay.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There are cultural norms. Must we lives the most extreme wish?
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,487 posts)thanks," I'd put my hand down and say, "what a pleasure to meet you."
I lose very little by respecting other people's wishes. If I want to comfort someone by hugging them and they don't want to be hugged, I lose nothing by refraining.
treestar
(82,383 posts)People hug me. But I never imagined complaining. I'm not that against it and think I might offend that person by refusing, and that is a factor too. The person you described has to do that every time, since most people don't consider hand shaking out of bounds. I would rather not do that.
The only thing I mention is people calling me "Mrs." and my last name, since it is my birth (maiden) name. Even then, I try to make light of it. I don't mind Miss or Ms. but being called Mrs. creeps me out as that belongs to persons married to my father and other paternal male relatives. Even so, I let it pass or make a joke of it. People can't always be perfect and there is no reason to embarrass them for such small "offenses."
dawg day
(7,947 posts)You sure you want to shake hands with me?
treestar
(82,383 posts)but they are trying not to spread the cold, not being uncomfortable shaking hands.
demosincebirth
(12,550 posts)DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Physical contact has been part of the Human experience since before there were Humans. Christ, even ants have a physical contact component to their social systems and they've been around for 140 million years. Absolutely there is touch that is unwelcome and not ok, but this is morphing into something neurotic.
Disclaimer, I am one of those people that *does not* like to be touched by complete strangers, and I have to warm to people that I do know, but I have the maturity to recognize what *type* of touch it is and its sociological and psychological intent AND not freak out about it or get upset by it. The social touch is innate in the Human psyche and is pretty much a subconscious action as a result. Often times we "literally" don't think about what we're doing when we do it because it is an instinct of social animals. Biden is a caring person and is probably more touchy as a result. Goes the other way too, nasty people like Trump utilize power touching to assert dominance. His infamous asshole handshake for instance. I think we all remember when President Macron hilariously and deliberately out-assholed Trump in their handshake as if to say, "No, you orange fuckwit, YOU are not in charge here." Macron turned Trump's own tactic against him. Or at that time Trump went to the (NATO?) meeting of world leaders and he aggressively patted one leader on the back only in order to shove him out of the way so he could be in front?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...have important tactile communication protocols.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Assuming or reacting to all touch from strangers as automatically being of ill-intent is contrary to social instincts developed over eons across the entire spectrum of social species in the animal kingdom. On an instinctual level, most animals know the difference between a social touch and a "I'm going to kill and/or eat you" or "I'm fighting and possibly killing you for that mate over there" touch. Our thinking brains have tacked on additional rules and habits over the millennia, but there's a change in the response to this innate behavior occurring. This hypersensitivity, and I recognize it in myself AND manage to control it, has been coming to the fore in recent years and I'm sure experts are delighted at the chance to witness and study a change in Human behavior in real-time.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Bigger brains, bigger psychological problems.
Persons who have a history in which social touch was the gateway to abuse are not exactly what youd call rare.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)People become hypersensitive if they've had a negative contact, while others like myself I couldn't readily explain the counter-instinctual aversion to social touch. People need to put their thinking caps on and ask themselves "Was Joe Biden preparing to rape me, or was he being overly-touchy and grossly clumsy in his attempt to reassure me? Is he being Uncle Joe, or Creepy Uncle Joe?" and apply that to whatever situation is making them uncomfortable. And to be perfectly clear, I would be wildly uncomfortable if Biden had done to me as described. He'd have gotten an immediate physical reaction: A surprised fight-or-flight shudder shaking him off of me and a confused/alarmed death stare until he explained himself. I say that because it has happened to me ... just not with Joe Biden obviously. It wasn't welcome in the slightest and while the intent wasn't malicious, they definitely did it from desire and I was not remotely reciprocating that interest. But again, despite the shock of the sudden unwelcome intrusion, I could read the situation and realize I wasn't under attack because I don't operate from the position of consciously assuming all uninvited touch is bad touch. Again, I do count myself among the those that have a hypersensitivity to being touched by others, but I control that to keep myself safe and to avoid as best I can needlessly screwing up social interactions. That incident was awkward for all parties but it was fleeting, thankfully.
Obviously none of us can truly know the inner workings of Biden's mind or this woman's, but it does give us an opportunity to discuss the larger sociological and psychological factors at work here. I don't discount her discomfort (again, happened to me) but I do have concern about people who function by default assume ill-intent in social touch in its typical forms. Breast grabbing is not social touch, it is an intentionally sexual-in-nature act outside of normal social interaction. I bring that example up specifically because people conflate sexual touch with general social touch. They are not the same thing. I personally don't think Joe Biden was being a creep, I think he was just being Joe Biden the well-meaning but clumsy oaf we've known for years. Personally, I'd forgive the intrusion with an explicit understanding not to do it again. But I'm neither him nor her, so all I can do is hope he was being supportive and that she comes to believe that as well. That's for them to figure out.
treestar
(82,383 posts)touch the other. Dotard probably thinks of it that way. I've never seen him hug anyone, either, whereas the Obamas, Biden and Clintons were always doing it.
Biden probably has never gotten negative feedback on this before. It was started by Republicans, too. I've seen them trying to make it a thing since before this primary. Other Democrats trying to use it in the primary is despicable and so far I notice only this comes from a supporter of only one particular "Democrat" who is a primary candidate.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)good, and more people need to become aware that some men and women don't like to be touched, none like to be touched in obnoxious ways, but others love friendly touches and embraces. Manners is about picking up on who is who; almost all signal their preferences.
But for a society to give up communication through touch, older than man, would be very unhealthy, even tragic. Making men afraid of normal interaction with women, of the sort men have with each other, is not an advance in women's rights. And encouraging women who have problems relating to others to regard every touch or hit as a kind of insult or assault isn't doing them any favors by a long shot.
But to me, bottom line, overdoing "don't touch" is just plain not nice. Most men deserve a much better attitude.
janterry
(4,429 posts)Speaking for myself:
I decided that as an adult that I needed to get over it.
I agree with others on the thread that there is a line (you do - too, I'm sure).
But generic stuff? It was okay - for me - to learn some new boundaries.
If someone were to be too touchy - meh. I might not like it, but it's not the end of the world. Plus, I tell folks when they've crossed the line and that's the end of it. I don't hold on to my own 'uncomfortableness.' I have learned to let it go.
True Blue American
(17,995 posts)Someone used the word, Puritan, in this thread. Life is too short not to enjoy.
True Blue American
(17,995 posts)My MIL/ FIL for the first time. He put out his hand to shake mine.
As they live 2 States away we did not see them often. Second time handshake. Third time I put out my arms to hug him. From that time on his arms were open wide when we visited.
My family was always that way.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,487 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)which involves putting your 2 palms together, and not touching each other.
JI7
(89,283 posts)namaste is a formality which most people won't use regularly.
at140
(6,110 posts)four times bigger than United States (which is India) I can't dispute your hypothesis that there are plenty of men who grope women.
Hekate
(90,978 posts)...caused by prenatal sex-selection, that have resulted in young women and girls treated like prey. "Eve-teasing" by groups of young men is offensive, dangerous, and something young women apparently just have to put up with if they want an education, a job, a night out at the movies or anything else normal people take for granted.
at140
(6,110 posts)growing up in India. I had 3 older sisters and one older brother. All 3 of my sisters graduated from college, the oldest in 1942. All three held professional jobs. I had like 50 first cousins adding all from mother and father's sides. I never heard of a single woman in that group being treated like prey.
India had a woman head of state (Indira Gandhi) in 1970, long before most other countries. We in United States are still waiting for one half a century later. It is easy to cast stones at other countries, and ignore our own situation.
Rape rate in India 1.8, Ranked 46th.
Rape rate in United States 27.3, Ranked 9th. 15 times more than India
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/India/United-States/Crime
But I left India in 1960, and things could have changed since then.
Hekate
(90,978 posts)...from India. Probably being in a University town has something to do with it, but even so.
My educational background as an undergrad in the late 1960s was Asian and Pacific history -- this is mostly relevant because it means I maintained an interest, and when the Los Angeles Times or similar reputable publication has an in-depth article I read it. Professors were not covering women's issues as such at the time (1968-1971) where I was, but I gravitated in that direction. Women's issues, reproductive health, public health, religion, those kinds of things.
Sadly, I think things have changed since 1960, when you left. As you are aware, there are cultures where sons are much more desirable than daughters, and this is not unique to India. There are many reasons, one of which is to have a retirement plan for the parents in the absence of a Social Security system. Daughters leave when they marry; sons stay.
China had a strict one-child policy for several decades, brutally enforced, that led to a terrible imbalance between men and women. India had its own pressures to encourage smaller families and restrain population growth, though nothing like China's authoritarian government enforced scheme.
If I understand correctly, what India finally had were readily available sonogram machines at village clinics that could determine the sex of the fetus. Imagine a married couple wanting to limit the size of their family and so enhance their prosperity and the prospects for their children. Imagine realizing they did not have to leave the gender of their children up to chance.
As a consequence, between India and China there are about 70 million "missing women," which creates far-reaching social consequences including loneliness and inability to ever get married. I apologize that I can't cite more from the article below than its link, but every time I try to go to a new page on my iPad while composing a post, it tries to erase whatever I am writing.
Here's an article from the Toronto Star last year:
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2018/05/05/too-many-men-examining-the-gender-imbalances-of-india-and-china.html
at140
(6,110 posts)However during my 20 years in India, abortion was rare in my circle of relatives. One family we knew well and were distant relatives had 6 daughters in a row, before their 1st son was born. I can just imagine the horror of adding up 6 dowries for the 6 daughters, without which it was difficult if not impossible to find a good husbands for daughters. My own parents had 2 daughters before a son showed up.
However on issue of disrespect for women, I never saw it in India. If some woman was molested, the whole neighborhood would beat the perp to a pulp with sticks. During my college years in India, boys and girls never touched each other! The first time I ever held hand of a girl was during my years at Univ of Iowa on a date at age 20. There was one incident I remember when during a weekend high-school trip, a rumor floated around that one of the teachers had touched one of the female students, and an intense fact finding investigation was launched by the school principal.
But it has been 58 years since I left India, and am certain things must be different now. My last visit was in 1984. I hate crowded noisy cities and all my older siblings have either passed or moved to other countries.
Hekate
(90,978 posts)Several years ago I returned to Hawai'i for my 50th high school reunion. I left when I was about 32, after spending all my young years there. The reunion itself was a treasure -- but in Honolulu, where I had lived and worked as an adult, nearly all my landmarks were overlaid. I had worked my way through the university as a salesclerk in the major shopping center, and literally found only one familiar unchanged site, an artificial waterfall where my 18-month old daughter once exclaimed in wonder "Water down!"
Classmate events were held in and near our home town, which looked and felt much the same, as did the deep countryside -- although the main highway through the rural part of the island was marked by homemades signs cursing out developers.
But when my husband and I drove back to our hotel each night, homeless people set up tents on the sidewalks of highway underpasses. A friend still working as a real estate broker said much of the cost of living in a condo in the city was for hiring security guards.
Yet anyone who knows me, at140, knows that place formed me and that part of my heart will always be there.
Things change in 50 or 60 years, but memories are real too.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)There are social customs everywhere that are different. Some cultures kiss on both cheeks, even men. Others stand closer to people they are talking to when we do.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)Sanders and came up with photos of each of them embracing or touching supporters.
I could post photos of President Obama and Michele all day hugging constituents. Nobody ever said anything about them. Yep. Selective outrage.
Here's Warren
Bernie, hands on girl's shoulders
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJ6JND2CLv401HGENOTKlqEyPqtZ1InrEnmfE1-WPoUvat0Rr3nw
?width=534&height=401&fit=crop
Volaris
(10,278 posts)Introverts have a hard time breaking into national level politics?
Hillary was an exception. And so I suspect it was through sheer iron WILL that she was good at it.
Her response to Trump's disgusting hovering during the debates was proof enough for me...if she had been at a bar and 'a nobody' she would have bloodied his nose for that and been RIGHT to do so, imho.
He's a worthless, sick, fuck of a man. She knew it. As much as was publicly allowed, she CALLED him on it. And she was punished for it by a nation of republican small dicked mysogonists.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)shoulders of young ladies and men. I wouldn't want him to touch me, but I never thought there was anything sexual about it.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)Google joe biden sniffing hair and click on images. It seems to be a thing.
I am 59, raised three daughters, coached girls soccer, and never known this to be a socially acceptable thing. In fact I don't think I've seen it before. I can understand a woman being freaked out by it.
However. Joe Biden is still on my list.
Ms. Toad
(34,123 posts)kissing their constituents on the lips, hovering behind them, hands on shoulders, whispering intimately in their ear or smelling their hair (i.e. not just briefly posing for the camera)?
It's really not selective outrage.
(That said, I'm not suggesting that he drop out of the race - BUT - I think this is a conversation Biden should listen to and learn from )
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,123 posts)your'e not paying attention.
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)I love hypocrisy when it is in full color.
at140
(6,110 posts)touching by a man to place both arms on shoulders from behind and whisper in woman's ears, whom he does not know very well.
That photo you posted about Warren clearly shows both parties wanted a hug.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)Did they meet socially before? A popular vice president has met almost all politicians at one time or another.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Polls showed him ahead of Bernie.
karynnj
(59,508 posts)It is obvious that Warren and the person are BOTH hugging. The Sanders photo is as standard a politician and person photo there is. It is posed and they are all smiling and they likely asked her the photo. The difference is that each of these people WANTED that engagement.
You seriously can not even pick up any clues of what the other person is thinking if you don't even have face to face contact!
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)Or giving her a "big, slow kiss" on her head, as Lucy Flores claims happened to her.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)to look at him and say.." EEEEW..did you just smell my hair & kiss my head?..that's creepy "
Women are just now starting to be more forceful when something happens, and that's a good thing..
For too many decades men have called the shots and it's now time for women to step up, and take more control..
Our culture sent so many mixed messages.. women/girls were taught to be demure/ladylike, which put all the pressure on guys to step up and "make the first move".. We all know how easily misunderstood things can get.. a cute girl smiles at a guy and HE may think that's an invitation for him to move in..It may just have been a friendly smile..
It's a RARE thing for a male-female friendship that has not at some time been "confused".. Many guys will accept the friend thing if they think it's working up to more, and many times the girl truly just wants to be friends. Most guys figure it out after a few embarrassing fumbles, but that usually ends the friendship.
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is for the distinct purpose of helping Bernie. And we all know if he does not win, it will be due to rigging anyway.
treestar
(82,383 posts)To shake hands and kiss babies.
How far do we have to go here ? All this so Bernie can beat Joe?
Squinch
(51,075 posts)lingering kiss on her head? Not in my world.
Where do YOU live?
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Squinch
(51,075 posts)Response to MoonRiver (Original post)
jberryhill This message was self-deleted by its author.
still_one
(92,492 posts)genders. There was no sexual context, but it could be uncomfortable for some I am sure
During the hurricane disaster in NJ he was hugging a lot of folks
Response to still_one (Reply #13)
jberryhill This message was self-deleted by its author.
still_one
(92,492 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But since the course was write a paper and show up for three hours a week to provoke Joe into ranting about stuff it was one of the least traumatic ones.
still_one
(92,492 posts)highplainsdem
(49,091 posts)And FWIW, I did some quick searching and didn't find anything to back up your story about Biden's behavior at Widener.
Response to highplainsdem (Reply #14)
jberryhill This message was self-deleted by its author.
TwilightZone
(25,512 posts)In fairness, that describes you, as well. Just because you insist it happened doesn't mean your anecdote is impervious to scrutiny.
Response to TwilightZone (Reply #33)
jberryhill This message was self-deleted by its author.
emulatorloo
(44,261 posts)Thanks for the link.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)emulatorloo
(44,261 posts)highplainsdem
(49,091 posts)belongs in the Primaries forum?
As for my checking for any supporting info... Considering the amount of oppo research done on Biden over the years, it would surprise me if there'd been a lot of complaints about him at Widener, of the sort your describe, with nothing about them leaking out.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2019, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)
Im agnostic on whether its a deal breaker. Im sure that he never intended to offend, but really just cant quite grasp that nobody is going to make a big stink when they are a third-year law student in a writing class where he is going to grade their paper, and he is a United States Senator basically volunteering his time to lend some cred to, lets face it, not the most prestigious law school.
One of the selling points OF the school was we have Joe Biden as faculty. Nobody was going to rock that boat and come out smiling.
But, the campus is about a five to ten minute drive from his house, and he could park his green convertible vette wherever he wanted. Since it was three hours, thered be a short break halfway through and hed even come out and shoot the shit with the smokers.
This was also the time of the Clinton/Lewinsky thing, which angered him no end.
Now, there was kind of a deal with this class. Because he was a senator and perennial presidential candidate, everyone agreed that he was allowed to speak candidly and hypothetically in class, and nobody would quote him on substance or make claims about stuff he said in class. That informal deal holds, because it gave us all a rare insight into the mind of an influential US senator. It was a great class.
Hes a fun guy. Hes been consistently mostly on the right side of things. Sometimes, like with the flag burning legislation, theres a certain trade-off between something like passing a silly piece of legislation that would get thrown out, as a compromise to screwing with the Constitution. So, some of the things in his history were for theatrical purposes.
And, again, on the Anita Hill thing... Bork had been shot down. There are only so many nominees the Senate is going to kill before it looks like a rigged game. Back in those days, it was more common for the president of another party to consult with Senate leaders to figure out how to get things done, and that happened after Bork was shot down. There was a lot more context to those circumstances.
But I digress. Joe is a great person in a lot of ways, and doesnt have an ill-intended bone in his body.
Did he have a habit of creeping women out - unknowingly and unintentionally - by being more tactile than many preferred. Yes he did. Im sure most would be of the opinion that it is in the past, sensitivities are more heightened now, and at the end of the day does this actually disqualify him from being president?
If hes the nominee, I will of course vote for him. But this thing is going to get factored in and looked at a bit more, however it may shake out, as things go forward. Treating it as a hit job etc. is not going to be a productive long term approach to putting this one to rest. Acknowledge it and move on. Accept that every candidate is going to have flaws. Its a flawed universe we live in.
LuvNewcastle
(16,864 posts)Looks like I've been mostly right about him when I've privately sized him up over the years. He's a genuinely decent guy with a few idiosyncrasies that get him in trouble from time to time. He isn't my first choice for the nomination, but we would still be fortunate to have someone like him as President, especially in comparison to what we've got now. I know that with the Metoo movement nowadays, we're going to hear more about Biden's behavior with women. It isn't like he's a predator or anything, so I won't be taking it seriously, but I know there are a lot of people who will. My hope is that Joe doesn't get hurt by all of this. That would be the real shame here.
treestar
(82,383 posts)So this just helps them, though there are no photos. A lot of those women might not think enough of it to want to help the right wing with this. Biden would be better than the pussy grabbing Dotard.
shanny
(6,709 posts)"His politics are bang on." Well, for me and many others, they weren't before. I don't know what they are now since a) his most recent job in govt. precluded him from taking a lot of personal stances and b) he's not officially running yet so he's not saying.
For me, leaving Anita Hill and any touchy/feely stuff aside, Joe has a lot of baggage and not all of it goes back to the 70s (busing, desegration/etc).
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Biden was a US Senator from Delaware. Delaware has always had its issues.
Understand this - Joe Biden did his undergrad at the University of Delaware, which did not admit a black student until 1971. Delaware is not north or south of the Mason Dixon line, we are east of it. Mason and Dixon surveyed the western border of Delaware.
Back to the point - the US Senate had jack shit to do with deseg. That was a matter for the courts and, in point of fact, the most populous of Delawares three counties had long established racial housing patterns through the usual soft discrimination exercised by developers, real estate agencies, and banks. Joes career began on the New Castle County Council.
Long story short - the US Third Circuit, in a long-running effort to encourage NCC to fix the schools, eventually exercised what amounted to receivership over how the districts would be arranged, certainly much to the chagrin of out-and-our racists, but also to the general unease of persons who didnt quite understand what the court was attempting to remedy.
To be a US Senator from Delaware, you have to be elected by the people of Delaware.
Now Biden always knew damn well that in stuff like deseg, abortion, and a number of other issues, the US Senate has very little to do with what the courts are going to decide in very unambiguous terms. And, as you note, a lot of these more theatrical things Biden did ended up going nowhere. The reason why, I would put to you, is that they were designed to go nowhere and were often stalking horses to draw support away from things that were worse, and allow him to straddle an electoral divide.
That sort of thing used to be recognized as a desirable characteristic of successful politicians, by the way.
The specifics may differ from case to case, but as you consider things that will be brought up about him, the above is sort of the general Biden operating principle as a US Senator.
shanny
(6,709 posts)but I fear my point was poorly made. I don't particularly care about stuff that goes back to the 70s. I don't care about stances he took, when he had no agency, simply to appeal to his voters. I didn't say anything about "theatrical things Biden did."
I said he has baggage, and I meant to say that it is far more recent and damaging than anything he said in the 70s. The Clinton crime bill was his baby. The bankruptcy bill was his baby.
That baggage, along with his Anita Hill fuck-up (and his recent passive voice I-wish-there-was-something-I-could-have-done non-apology apology)--is what bothers me.
Hekate
(90,978 posts)As you say, "His politics are bang on."
I've just been emotionally battered by witnessing the awfulness of the politics of personal destruction over the decades, and I know that anyone who has a 40 year record in Washington DC has things in their past that can be twisted and used -- and I just cannot forget what the Puritan Left did to Al Franken, of all people.
In the past my concern was that Joe Biden had simply finally aged out. Now I find myself dreading attacks from our own side that I don't think he will deserve.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And I dont think any opinions about it are invalid, because people just seem to come from different starting points and personal histories and preferences.
Today, I think there is a much broader understanding that even I didnt mean anything touch can, for some, be extremely unwelcome in ways that persons of Bidens background, personality and experience simply have not understood or appreciated in times past.
All Im saying is that fighting against the facts is not going to be a good long range strategy for having this simply factored into the pros and cons of any candidate. But the sooner it is factored in, the better.
True Dough
(17,358 posts)I think a lot of people will miss it buried in this thread.
MineralMan
(146,345 posts)relationship, really, men, women, and children. Until you know that physical contact is welcome and you're sure it's not inappropriate, avoid it. People will let you know if they are huggers or whatever. Men, of course, should always wait for women to initiate contact beyond a handshake or signal that a hug or whatever is welcome. Children should simply never be the target of any physical contact unless they're your children, grandchildren, or other relatives where such contact is the norm, or if a parent encourages such contact and you're comfortable with it.
You can always offer a handshake to pretty much anyone, of course. That is an accepted form of contact in most situations. However, if it is not accepted, that's a clear message that contact is not wanted.
Everyone is different and it takes time to learn those differences. A good friend of my former wife was a hugger and a smoocher. The first time she gave me a big smooch, I was pretty uncomfortable. I talked to my wife about it and she said, "She does that with everyone she likes. It doesn't bother me." So, that became a standard greeting with that particular person, but with nobody else.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)"Go give "whomever it is" a kiss"..
I always told our boys that kisses were to be given/received when THEY felt it.. to each other (when they were little) or to Mom & Dad (again, when they were little)... and of course as they got to be teens we told them to be respectful and to KNOW a kiss would be welcomed BEFORE they did it
MineralMan
(146,345 posts)Never. They did teach us how to be polite and friendly, but left it to us when to show affection that way. I remember vividly my first girlfriend. Our first physical contact was holding hands as we walked. I asked her if I could hold her hand. She answered by taking my hand. It was wonderful. Then, one day soon after that, I said, "Can I kiss you?" She said, "Of course." I was 14 years old and she was 13. That was when I learned to ask first. I've never done otherwise, actually, ever since.
Did I miss some opportunities? No doubt. Did anyone ever say "No" when asked if a kiss was OK? Nope. Not once. Because I didn't ask unless I was pretty damned sure of the answer. "Would it be OK if I..." "Unless the answer was a clear "Yes," I never did. These days, it's something like "So, you wanna fool around." And it all started with asking a 13-year-old girl if I could hold her hand. We're still friends on Facebook, more than 50 years later, although I haven't seen her in decades. We're both long married to other people, and it's all just a fond memory.
My parents got it right, I think. So did you.
Dennis Donovan
(18,770 posts)...and , when I saw her on her first day back to work, I hugged her hard. Her and her husband were friends of mine. I hugged her as hard as I could because it was very important to me that she knows she's not alone in her grief.
Am I a letch? I'm starting to be disgusted by the call out of humanitarians who merely tried to let others know that they are not alone.
This offed a VERY IMPORTANT Progressive Senator (Franken) and it's about to off a GREAT American like Joe Biden.
I get #metoo. What I don't get is the slaying of decent guys like Joe Biden, Al Franken and me.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,947 posts)and did not interpret it as meaning anything other than an offer of comfort. The issue in this thread is whether it's appropriate to touch or hug people who are total strangers. I don't like to be hugged by strangers, but if a friend did it as a gesture of kindness or consolation I'd be fine with it. That's a very different situation. I don't think Biden is a letch, either. He might be just a little too comfortable with familiarity.
Ms. Toad
(34,123 posts)That should be standard practice, unless you have an established relationship with the person in which physical contact is the norm.
It doesn't (necessarily) have anything to do with you being a letch - it has to do with controlling who touches my body, when. And - frankly - when I'm in the midst of pain or grief, an out-of-the-blue hug can force me to spend emotional energy I don't have weighing whether to tolerate the unwanted contact and offending the person I like by asking them not to touch me (or by 'making a scene')
LAS14
(13,790 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,123 posts)includes an extraordinary number of people whose boundaries were never respected. It is very important for them to be able to decide when and by whom they are touched. Although the concentration in that particular community is very high - the principle is always applicable. People like my friends don't cease to exist once they move out of our community and constantly having to make the choice to tolerate contact they don't want or speak up is very emotionally draining.
Unless I have an existing relationship which includes physical contact, I alway ask before hugging - including yesterday when I had someone standing in front of me in tears. It takes a second or less to ask, and it is important.
Chemisse
(30,821 posts)If you don't want a hug in a situation in which a hug is generally socially acceptable, you should just avoid it by turning your body or holding your arms out in a stop fashion or whatever.
People should not feel as though they are molesting others when they are sharing genuine caring feelings which most people really appreciate.
Ms. Toad
(34,123 posts)Touching can (and often is) offensive without being sexual. Some people just don't want to be touched - and they have the right to have that respected. The onus on avoiding unwanted conduct should be on the person touching wihtout consent - not on the recipient to prevent it.
It is a trivial matter to say, "Would you like a hug?" It takes less than a second and gives the recipient a chance to avoid contact without having to physically manipulate themselves out of the way of the contact.
I say that as a hugger - and also as part of a community that includes a disproportionate number of individuals who do not welcome physical contact. I always ask, unless I have a relationship esblished that includes physical contact - becuase people I consider family have shared with me how difficult it is to negotiate a world in which they constantly have to physically dodge contact/explain themselves/risk alienating friends and acquaintances.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Sexual. Has nothing to do with that. Both were doing it in public which sexual harassers dont do. So now they are moving to mere touching.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)it can be still make the recipient of an unwanted touch profoundly uncomfortable. Why not err on the side of sensitivity and empathy for people who may have experienced things that can make casual touch traumatic?
The default assumption that its OK to touch people you dont know well is retrograde and rude.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But then I'm kind of shy. But people doing it to me does not really floor me. And hand shaking is expected. People do it automatically.
In the Catholic Church there is now a point in a Mass called "the kiss of peace." Most people just shake hands and say peace be with you. Should that be a warning for anyone who might be new? Is there a point where it is more awkward to refuse? On occasions someone will say they have a cold so they don't want to shake your hand. Still the cold is an "excuse" so what of a person who would say I am just not comfortable shaking hands? And are the going to complain if people then respond, you are a weirdo?
The culture does not yet support this extreme view of social and non sexual touching.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)behind by a stranger, have that stranger sniff their hair, and then plant a lingering kiss on their heads.
People saying they don't want strangers to do that to them makes life SO CONFUSING for you!!!
It's so sad for you. Those damn women will never be happy. Might as well just dismiss them. Because, really, it has everything to do with you and how you hugged your friend.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,947 posts)Some people are OK with being patted or hugged (in a non-sexual way, of course) by people they don't know, but I don't like it even when it's clearly not at all sexual (you can almost always tell when it is). It violates my personal space and it makes me really uncomfortable. Not too long ago I was asked to help out in a friend's church choir because they were missing a few singers. I'm not a churchgoer but I like some of the music and was happy to help out. So they got to this one part in the service where they were greeting each other and this one woman whose name I didn't even know grabbed me in a big bear hug - and I just froze. WTF? Offer a handshake but don't grab me, FFS.
I don't think Biden was being sexually predatory or had bad intent, but some of us just don't like being touched by people we don't know, regardless of intent. And it's easy for us women to interpret the intent as sexual even if it isn't.
marble falls
(57,425 posts)no express permission.
highplainsdem
(49,091 posts)reassurance or just sheer happiness vanish if permission isn't asked first.
Yes, there are types of touching that are offensive and ill-intended. Most women can easily tell the difference, and they should be able to make their feelings about any offensive touching clear.
Yes, there are people who don't want to be touched at all, except by those very close to them. In which case they can explain that.
But our world would be a colder, sadder place if people were afraid to show spontaneous affection by touching.
It's wrong to treat all touching as potential sexual assault or demeaning/controlling behavior.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)ever said anything.
highplainsdem
(49,091 posts)according to some.
But it was perfect.
JI7
(89,283 posts)iamateacher
(1,089 posts)Thanks
Squinch
(51,075 posts)Queen's head?
Just curious. Personally, I don't think that would have been perfect. I think that would have been creepy.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)kissed their hair lingeringly.
If you know different, please do provide a link.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)is not supported by anyone in attendance of that function. I don't.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)said that Joe has inflicted low-grade harassment on them over the years.
He has been in trouble for this kind of thing before, and he ought to know better.
And as I said to another poster who is insisting on witness corroboration to sexual harassment: I am researching the legal system used by the Puritans. They required TWO witnesses of any woman who accused a man of misconduct. I don't know why you stop at one. If you require three then no one will ever charge another person with sexual harassment again, and we can all pretend it doesn't exist. We could outdo the Puritans in not listening to women!
highplainsdem
(49,091 posts)Biden tried to reassure her with hands on her shoulders, and she completely misinterpreted it, didn't bother to speak up or ask him for an explanation then, and instead weaponized it at a time when he's outpolling her favored candidate.
That's what happened. He didn't sidle up to her in a bar or office and sniff her hair and kiss the back of her head.
Henry Munoz, who organized the event and checked all the photos and talked to everyone there that he could reach, couldn't find any confirmation of what Flores claims happened. And it's almost impossible that there would not have been witnesses with so many people around, and so many eyes likely to be on Biden.
FWIW, my best guess based on both what Flores wrote and what Munoz wrote is that Biden thought Flores was suffering from stage fright or starting to hyperventilate (she had suddenly started taking deep breaths, from her own account), Biden put his hands on her shoulders, leaned down a bit to whisper something reassuring or encouraging, and she didn't hear him with all the noise around, but was very uncomfortably aware of how close his face was to her hair.
Which she had not washed that day, a fact she brings up in her own account.
So she felt embarrassed, and that probably was the beginning of the resentment.
But there's no sign on her smiling face in any of the photos taken at the event, just minutes after this allegedly traumatic encounter happened, that Flores was anything but very pleased to have Biden there.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)discount the words of the woman who was there and who it happened to. Because internet guy knows all.
And she was smiling! As she was being introduced to give a major speech! GOSH! That MUST mean nothing happened. Ehhh... no.
And she didn't stop the proceedings of the introduction to her major speech to have a heart to heart with Biden about welcome and unwelcome touches! That MUST mean nothing happened! Ehhhh... no.
She has said herself this was uncomfortable and creepily inappropriate. Not traumatic. She has taken pains to say she did not find it traumatic and that it should not disqualify him.
But I guess your best guess as all-knowing internet guy is much more believable than the report of the woman it happened to. A report that, by the way, is one of dozens of similar reports over the years of this same kind of behavior from Biden.
highplainsdem
(49,091 posts)know very well, is either sexual/creepy or demeaning/controlling. I know it's a mistake and unfair to men to misjudge and overreact.
As for Flores's "report"
https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/an-awkward-kiss-changed-how-i-saw-joe-biden.html
she dragged in debunked rightwing smears against Biden to try to make her case and destroy his political career.
Particularly her nasty mischaracterization of Biden's interaction with Stephanie Carter while her husband, Defense Secretary Ash Carter, was speaking at a podium only a few feet away.
That event happened years ago, and the smears about it were debunked years ago.
But Flores not only resurrected that smear, she added to it, lying outright in claiming in her essay that Biden was nuzzling Stephanie Carter's neck, when the clip that sentence links to shows clearly that Biden was doing no such thing. He was whispering in her ear, and she nodded and smiled. Both Carters made it clear there was nothing creepy or inappropriate about this.
I think it's disgusting that Flores dragged out this tired old smear and lied to add to it.
I think it discredits her.
So no, I do not take her account as completely accurate. Not when she's clearly lying and trying to smear Biden with debunked accusations in the same piece where she rolls out her attack on him.
And as for your saying there are "dozens of similar reports over the years of this same kind of behavior from Biden"...
That's BS.
There are dozens of video clips and photos -- many of them photoshopped -- showing Biden touching or hugging women, which his political enemies have tried to use against him.
As far as I know, they've been debunked, usually by the people he was filmed or photographed with making it clear they saw nothing wrong with his gestures of reassurance or affection.
Flores's accusations are the most serious I've heard against him.
And they're highly questionable because of details in her own account. And her motivation and timing are particularly questionable.
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)hugging people.
Way too many guys use hugs to cop a feel when it comes to women. I dare say that a certain politician, not named Trump, is one of them.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)that was worse than touching me. I took a step back, he took a step forward, and so on, until I was up against a wall. Then he stopped. Never touched me, but was much worse than an inappropriate touch. It was a power play, a control thing. "You don't even own your own space...that's how unimportant you are."
A touch on the arm by a male friend, or a friend type of hug by a male friend I'm especially close to would probably be okay. But I'm not that close with any male.
There aren't hard and fast rules. We all know inappropriate touching when it happens. It's intentional. But it's not ALL touching.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Being in a crowded room? Maybe they should never go out.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)to be approached from behind, have her hair sniffed and be given a lingering kiss on the hair by a relative stranger to be an indicator that she is not able to stand in a crowded room?
Why must people be so ridiculous when women make a simple request that men not touch them inappropriately?
And no matter how much we love him, his behavior with that accuser was completely inappropriate.
And yes, I do believe her, because Joe does this kind of thing all the time. And he needs to stop. It's disrespectful.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Things like this tend to bring out the hypocrites.
The thing is, did we impeach W over that? No.
Getting past yes hes had a habit of this, the question is what is the consequence? Id like to believe he has gotten the message.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 31, 2019, 09:35 AM - Edit history (1)
of judgment that doesn't bode well, and that we can't afford in this upcoming election.
He has gotten into trouble about this before, including the last time he ran for President. Not big trouble, and everyone says, "That's just Joe," but it's not. It isn't the end of the world, but it isn't OK and he has not learned from being told this in the past. That is despite the fact that he already knows he has baggage for a lot of women due to his behavior toward Anita Hill, among other things.
I do like him, I do respect him, but all of this combines to make me think there are probably lots of women out there with similar stories, those stories will gum up the airwaves and keep Democrats from getting positive airplay, and we just don't have time for this crap. Joe should have grown up on this issue long ago, and he still hasn't.
With the field we have this year, there is no way I am going to use my primary vote on someone who repeatedly commits unforced errors.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Good grief. That was a meeting of international leaders. And she cringed, but has never been heard to say anything else about it.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)going much farther, to the point where you have to ask if they could stand being in a crowded room where someone might inadvertently touch them. The standard has gone much farther with some of the comments I am seeing here. People who don't like social touch at all, with nothing to do with sexual harassment.
As to the case you mention, it is amplifying a right wing attempt to make this a thing, and has only come from a Bernie supporter and only now that polls show Joe ahead of Bernie without even announcing.
All of this is stuff Biden did in public and even photographed. It's Frankenesque.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)if I'm touched by a stranger in a crowd I don't freak about it or assign malicious intent.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)AS you are being introduced to make a speech?
That's OK with you?
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)Made up a story about him that he says never happen. Fool me once.
Chemisse
(30,821 posts)Why spoil it by infusing all male-female touching with sexual connotation?
Triloon
(506 posts)Every touch is a sexual advance and must be nipped in the bud. Unless prior authorization is obtained. "I'm so happy for you about your new job, may I apply for permission to pat you on the back? I have no history of sexual assault, here's my papers..."
Is that ridiculous? It certainly is.
LAS14
(13,790 posts)Squinch
(51,075 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)Some really bad shit happened to me as a kid, starting from before I was old enough to really remember to an age where I was old enough that Ill never forget. Because of that experience being touched by anyone with whom Im not intimate is deeply, deeply uncomfortable, even terrifying on a bad day.
Parroting some idiotic balderdash about the wounds of Puritanism only serves to remind people that their personal desire to control their own bodies is something to be laughed off, dismissed with nothing more than a staggeringly-unoriginal bromide intended to convey some imagined sophistication or enlightenment. Thank you so very, very much for that.
Im able to respect the boundaries of others. I dont need to pat someone on the back or hug them to show admiration or pass on congratulations. I dont need to lean in and violate someones space to talk to them. I dont need to come up behind their chair and rub their shoulders. I expect the same level of respect for my boundaries.
tl;dr : People should keep their hands to themselves.
This has to be understood.
True Blue American
(17,995 posts)You said it.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,232 posts)Different people have different comfort levels. If I'm uncomfortable about how someone is touching me, I TELL THEM, assertively, but politely. I don't expect people to be mind readers, regardless of gender.
Harker
(14,069 posts)and I'm just beginning to accept the fact that approximately one quarter of the women customers in the busy retail store where I work are going to call me honey, sweetheart, darling, or some other term of endearment.
I've not felt strongly enough to ask anyone not to do that, and I am pretty sure that it's always been meant positively and not entirely personally.
I see it as a local, or maybe regional, cultural matter.
I don't see a lack of desire for physical contact with anyone other than a friend or intimate as a sign of prudishness.
JI7
(89,283 posts)refer to all people that way. they say it to other women also.
Harker
(14,069 posts)Many men who are strangers to me also call me "buddy", which is unusual to me. I don't find that offensive, either.
I'm growing accustomed to it.
On a personal level, though, I choose to save such words for my wife. If I called every nice person something sweet, I might not have the same contextual oomph as I now feel when I call her "sweetheart."
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If neither of my parents was one of yours, then find something else to call me.
That's hardly endearing for me, either.
One step from the two that automatically put me on alert - "chief" and "boss."
treestar
(82,383 posts)Its very common for waitresses and other female retail workers to call the customer hon. Not a day goes by that I dont get called that !
If you are female here you can call anyone of any age or gender hon Its a custom at this point.
ProfessorGAC
(65,334 posts)My wife is a super "honey" "sweetie" type! Calls almost everybody those sort of monikers and she's never been near DE.
Like you said, it's become custom.
Harker
(14,069 posts)or "Bucko", surely.
MaryMagdaline
(6,858 posts)That said, hes a bit handsy. Its an issue we will have to deal with.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And grabbing women by the pussy is allowed in a President, Joe looks like a saint!
MaryMagdaline
(6,858 posts)Squinch
(51,075 posts)ways that are unwelcomed and that make them uncomfortable is not something that WE should dismiss. It was a problem for him the last time he ran for President, and it is a problem for him now.
He needs to stop doing it. It's an unforced error. Stopping it is just common sense.
The vile behavior of Individual 1 should not be a benchmark for any of our decisions.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We elected the pussy grabber POTUS. As a nation.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)And are you willing to let Individual 1's behavior lower YOUR bar?
The_jackalope
(1,660 posts)It involved a very public apology. I've never forgotten that lesson.
Buckeyeblue
(5,505 posts)But I find more and more I am "expected" to do social hugging with both women and men. So I don't think this is simple.
I also think some women are lying about inappropriate touching. It's a new way of getting attention. And remember I said some.
I choose to believe Biden. We all make our choices.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)True Blue American
(17,995 posts)I have a family member, a good Democrat who said he feared for his Son because a woman could get ticked off at him and destroy his whole Career and life he worked so hard for just to be vindictive.
And we know that can happen. I think we are going much too far,equality,yes, but common sense,too.
BlueFlorida
(1,532 posts)MFM008
(19,827 posts)He kisses men. Kids. Everyone.
Yeah he needs to pull back
But up against the rapist molester in chief
This is garbage.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)It has gotten him in trouble before (the last time he ran for President), and now it is getting him in trouble again.
Joe just needs to take this seriously and stop doing this. Because he keeps getting in trouble for it. And at this point stopping it would just be common sense.
The fact that trump is a monster and a molester is not disputed, but it is also not the point.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)Including myself. We women from certain generations have allowed this for too long. I run into a guy and his wife often and he's always wanting to hug me. I'm not comfortable with it, but I felt like I'd be an asshole if I told him "no" to a hug. After all, he's just being friendly, right? Well, he's a bit more creepy than that, to be honest because of some of the things he's said to me. Biden just doesn't strike me as that sort, but while I've seen him in person, I didn't get that close to him.
I defended Biden earlier, but I also believe in the current climate, men would do well to ask for permission before giving a woman a hug, and vice versa. Some people don't like being touched by strangers. Even if they don't mean to be creepy, a lot of us women have experienced creepers, sexual aggression, molestation and sexual assaults and being hugged by a man you don't know that well can feel like being violated. That being said, smears against Biden are not right. I love that women are not standing for the centuries old shit, but sometimes you have to step back and use common sense and not lump in men who touch a woman's shoulder or give hugs into the same category as sexual assaulters and rapists.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)People are confusing these things happened with does it mean Biden is disqualified.
For some it may be a deal breaker. For others it may not.
Im sure by now Biden gets it. Whether it is simply a flaw, or a fatal flaw, is not going to get unanimity either way.
catbyte
(34,514 posts)I also get annoyed by overly huggy women, but it's a different vibe. Please keep you mitts to yourself, people, unless you're friends.
lilactime
(657 posts)tymorial
(3,433 posts)I am disinterested in anyone putting their hands on me.
quickesst
(6,283 posts)... what and who this thread is about, I have to ask. Are there witnesses and pictures / video? Was there a sexual intention here, or someone offering reassurance? Can you prove it either way? I can't since I have heard no witnesses, seen no pictures or video, plus given the fact that this is the first time I have heard of this incident which just happens to coincide with the primaries by someone who supports a person where the accused is currently the only real threat to his campaign.
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)It happened to me at a wedding a couple of weeks ago. I was saying to hello to a male family friend who then reached out and put his hands on my hips as we spoke. Not okay. Other men have leaned in and kissed me and otherwise put their hands on me as they brushed by.
I think it's a generation difference. I think that younger men these days understand that violating a woman's personal space is not okay. In the past, we women were taught to be polite and just tolerate unwanted touching. Or worse, to interpret this behavior as a compliment because "he likes you" Fortunately the times have changed.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)I was told to undress when I saw an allergy specialist who groped my breasts. As I think back on it, why in the heck did he need to check my breasts. Then I had a gyne exam when I was a teenager and I got the weirdest vibes from the doctor. A third time I asked a doc about how you do breast exams, and again was just groped, as if that is the way to do breast exams. I always prefer women doctors now.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They usually do that now. Even the dermatologist did last time I went.
The allergy doctor I saw around 1995, the gyne around 1985 and the general practitioner around 2005. None of them had a nurse.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or another woman ? Lets not get ridiculous.
demosincebirth
(12,550 posts)LAS14
(13,790 posts)Squinch
(51,075 posts)thing for you to do? Meaning, where you are not 100 percent sure they would welcome your hands on their shoulders?
In what situation are you worried you will find this necessary, and will now be thwarted because others are pointing out to you that you should respect others' boundaries? Do tell.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)your actions...unless you are a politician or in some other position where there may be people out to specifically try to pick apart your every move and use it against you.
Some cultures, some events, some occupations, it is the norm to hug and kiss on the cheek or head and 99% of the people know the person doing it isn't doing it with bad intent.
LAS14
(13,790 posts)indie9197
(509 posts)whether men or women I often put my hands on their shoulders or back. I guess that is wrong now?
Squinch
(51,075 posts)Now you can't walk through a crowd any more!
It's all so sad for you.
Vinca
(50,323 posts)No pats on the back from a proud coach, no shoulder squeezes out of joy, no shoulders to cry on. And this is living??????
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Thank you.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)have that stranger sniff her hair and then plant a lingering kiss on her head, is RUINING IT FOR EVERYONE!
Damn her! She has made life SO HARD for you! It means no coach can ever pat anyone on the back! It means no one can ever cry on another's shoulder! It is HORRIBLE OF HER!
We should lock her up.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)to themselves. Mind-blowing.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)time something like this comes up, we have to go through this hair on fire bullshit. Always the victim blaming, always the insistence that reasonable complaints are completely unreasonable, always the bending over backward to excuse the one who put his hands or mouth where they clearly don't belong.
On a Democratic forum.
It is very disheartening, and it shows how strong entitlement is even among our own. I think your photo of Bush and Merkel is particularly instructive, but no one seems to be catching on to that. And I'm sorry. I love Joe, but what he did was infinitely more creepy than what Bush did to Merkel.
Spot on.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)When my daughter was around 4, I took her to the Dentist which had a Planned Parenthood in the building. Demonstrators outside. One of them (old man) came up to my daughter and patted her on the head. She pushed him away and said, "Don't touch me!"
Little Girls as well.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Chemisse
(30,821 posts)It could be polite - pulling away, a look, a frown, even a smile and gentle excuse - or it could be rude - 'get your f'ing hands off me!' Either way it would be clear and immediate, and it would stop the intrusive act.
Women have the power to control what happens to them (short of being physically overpowered, of course). We need to stop being passive recipients of creepy sexual overtures and just say no, right then and there.
What we DON'T need to do is simmer over it for years until that person runs for office, then come forward with a tale of a touch or a kiss that we did not have the huevos to make a scene over at the time it was happening@!
Squinch
(51,075 posts)taken the time to let Joe know exactly why what he did was creepy?
I guess his actions are HER responsibility. Because a seventy year old man who has been in trouble for this kind of thing before cannot possibly be expected to understand that what he did was inappropriate. And because she didn't delay her speech and have a heartfelt with him, we should just consider her huevo-less.
Ehhhh... no.
Chemisse
(30,821 posts)In the full glare of national tv?
Granted, she has a lot of practice at it, but that's all it takes. Slither away from it gracefully, in her case. She can always make a comment to him afterward.
Waiting until someone runs for office to say something is cowardice at best, political assassination at worst.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)And no, Ivanka did not "handle" anything. She exited the stage when it was time for her to do so.
Chemisse
(30,821 posts)So she had plenty of time to say 'hands off' if that's how she felt.
But no, she waited a few years and decided to be offended when he became the competition for her favorite primary candidate?
Actions like this make a mockery of the MeToo Movement.
tavernier
(12,410 posts)Very seldom, if ever, do I remember a hug being inappropriate for me. I am speaking for myself as an adult. I dont think strangers or just anyone should be physical with children.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)kissed your head, you wouldn't find that inappropriate?
treestar
(82,383 posts)I am not sure I believe more than the hands on shoulders. The rest could have been an accident, or taken by her in the worst possible way for now in order to join in the right wing pile-on smear. I don't believe a politician of that experience level would in public go that far. And now there are political motives to exaggerate. This is the very thing that allowed the Dotard to win. If Bernie is such great candidate, he needs to make his case without dissing the others and I will apply that standard to all of them. And the supporters need to adopt that standard, because we just can't let the Dotard have another term.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)Bernie. I am in no way a fan of Bernie and would NEVER vote for him in a primary. My objections have solely to do with Biden, his baggage and his repeated handsiness. It has gotten him into trouble before - even during his last Presidential bid - and he keeps doing it.
It's an unforced error, it's childish, sexist and really dumb for a political person, and we don't have time for a candidate whose handsiness is going to be dominating news cycles. We have a great field and we don't have time for this, no matter how much we love Joe.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If you don't believe Bernie supporters would exaggerate, you haven't been around.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)with BS.
It has to do with Joe. Joe has been down this road before. He does this kind of shit, a number of times over the years. That is why this accuser is believable.
Not because of BS. Because of Joe.
PS: I'm researching the legal system used by the Puritans. They never believed a woman who accused a man of misconduct unless there were TWO witnesses. So why do you stop at only ONE witness? Demand three and then no one will ever report harassment again, and we can just stop worrying about it!
treestar
(82,383 posts)I believed Ford. That did not take place in public.
Biden is always in public and even photographed doing these things.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)tavernier
(12,410 posts)we can do it
(12,210 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)LS_Editor
(893 posts)This OP of this thread has tunnel vision.
doompatrol39
(428 posts)These attacks on Democratic candidates are meant to divide us and undermine us!!! We need to stop it. This is abhorrent and is tearing us apart. We need to keep our eyes on beating Trump not smearing our candidates!!!!! STOP SPREADING THESE SMEARS!!!
Now that I've said that, let me tell about these horrible things that this other candidate who is not my preferred candidate did, because that is just democracy in action and we need to have a thorough vetting process because whoever our candidate is will be facing a well oiled attack machine!!!! I'm just interested in getting the truth out there and nothing else.
And for the record if it wasn't obvious, this is
Although it is not too far off the mark on a lot of non-sarcastic posts on here lately and I fear it's only going to get worse. And for the record I agree with the OP, but this is exactly how the defenders and excuse makers come across on here, especially to those of us who are undecided.
Initech
(100,129 posts)Bottom line: don't be a creeper.
samnsara
(17,656 posts)...or put his hand around my waist when we are on a photo situation. What I DO NOT LIKE is someone is squeezing my fat, boobs, butt or kissing me on the mouth. Actually I think most women feel the same. Still..its like asking to pet someones dog...just a simple 'May I?' will get you a smile and miles of respect.
And in the future I will also ask MAY I if i feel compelled to hug a man.
Mike Nelson
(9,978 posts)
to a "touchy feely" area - I live in Southern California. The "hug" has replaced the handshake among friends, relatives and (sometimes) total strangers. I don't like being grabbed or touched by women or men - it's usually in a nightclub or at a party - unless I know the person. At a convention, in a hotel, a man did come up and kiss me. I can still recall the shock... I see all the reaction to Joe Biden's incident and would probably not mind it - I'd expect some physical contact if I were to attend a political event and meet him. But I think we can change to some form of "hands off" and get used to it... also, VP Biden or anyone can say, "I will be shaking hands." He can also let the other person initiate any hugs. I think there should be no kissing, though...
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)You do not put out your hand, then I do not force myself on you any further. That should be simple to understand. I will not be offended.
The simple social gesture of offering a handshake in this culture is NOT an attempt at assault. And men should know the difference between shaking a man's hand and shaking a woman's.
I akways ask if I may give someone a hug. If they do not want to, then it is up to them to say so. I will not be offended.
It is up to you to set the boundaries acceptable to you. Do not feel you have to engage in contact if you do not want to.
BUT, do not engage in contact you do not want, and then complain about it later, and blame it on the other person not respecting your boundaries.
aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)should a female need Heimlich or CPR