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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLet's be honest. Omar wants to talk about Palestinian Treatment. That's why she gets shut down.
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the General Discussion forum).
I think, if people were honest, they'd acknowledge a major reason Ilhan Omar gets so much crap is she wants to talk about how the STATE of Israel and the hard-right in Israel treat Palestinians.
Her words may not be the most eloquent, nor the most well thought out when she speaks. So people take advantage of the fact she isn't polished in her presentation. They take her not-so-great wording and twist what she means to be what they want it to mean so they can discredit her and take her down before she can actually make us have that difficult discussion no one wants to have.
I don't know a lot of people here who are fond of Netanyahu and his far-right coalition. THAT'S who she's talking about when she makes statements. She's not talking about all Jewish people as a class. People know that if they're not being intellectually dishonest. But the politicians in DC, and many people here on DU do not want to have any discussion about whether or not the STATE of Israel and the hard-right in Israel, treat Palestinians poorly. I know I avoid the topic almost completely because I don't want to risk being banned for being called anti-Semitic.
Just as the Trump and the hard-right in the US deserve to be called out for their treatment of minorities, so too does Netanyahu and the hard-right of Israel for their treatment of people.
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KPN
(15,635 posts)introspection. I often wonder to what extent we let a sense of "American exceptionalism" overwhelm any intrusions into that paradigm.
The reality is public figures have to be smart in what they publicly voice. Historical figures like Anwar Sadat and Mikhail Gorbachev were truly "exceptional" at keeping their views in check until the right opportunity presented itself, i.e., they had captured the helm and enough support to go with it.
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)The RW wing noise machine and their Russian friends want all the discussion focused on Omar, AOC and Smollet to divert from Trump and GOP failures and criminality. Stop playing into their hands.
ancianita
(35,926 posts)
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)There's always an election in the news. It's safe theatre. Especially this far away. This is the same excuse used for not talking about guns.
ancianita
(35,926 posts)
procon
(15,805 posts)Thanks for reminding all here that we are constantly being manipulated with sensationalist reporting and encouraged to fight among ourselves. It’s a game called: “Let’s you and him fight”.
Don’t take the bait! Another big win for the Right is that they capture the days news and it is then put through the echo chamber of MSM. Keeping a cool head and not being sucked into the daily story pushed by some is a good idea. Instead, keep publishing about the wonderful platform that our Democratic Party is shaping through our many fine candidates.
3_Limes
(363 posts)
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Israel/Palestine is a highly emotional issue on all sides. Only an extremely skilled and polished politician can speak about it without blowback. Even Obama had trouble and he did tread carefully.
It's no surprise that Omar is getting this treatment as she blunders in. Being a Muslim woman is just icing on the cake.
Personally I don't talk about the issue at all. I used to, but having a rational objective conversation about it is nearly impossible.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)As I said. I avoid it almost entirely. But, I do have opinions. None of which I will discuss in this thread/forum as it is prohibited and I respect the rules.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Then perhaps more congress people need to talk about the issue. We have basically let the RW dominate the narrative on Israel/Palestine. That, I think, is another reason why it was so easy to denounce her comments as anti-Semitic. You have to ask yourself, How has calling out rights abuses and dirty politics become equated with anti-Semitism? The answer is, Ever since we let the xtian fundamentalists piggy back their agenda on our foreign policy relations with Israel.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Americans think 100 years is long time but it's a part of the world that has seen 4,000 years of conflict. You've got to look at all that history before you can BEGIN to understand what is happening there. It's no wonder we don't get it.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)But it's not very complicated at all to denounce war hawks like Bibi.
I know the history of the region very well. But if you really want to get a good perspective, you should read A.B. Yehoshua's novel Mr Mani. Now that should be required reading for every congress person.
oldsoftie
(12,486 posts)You start using the same old tired ass terms about Jews and money and "allegiance" and you're gonna get called on it.
The majority of the Jewish vote usually goes to the Democrat. If you want to discuss funding and the issues of the palestinians, fine, but leave out the racist BS thats been used by the extremists.
Larrybanal
(227 posts)when I was in HS I considered becoming jewish because my jewish friends were thinkers...I eventually became atheist.
I do have problems with israel and the way they have treated palestinians in and around jerusalem for decades..and dumbass jared thinks he can fix this problem by only talking to israel. hopefully israel will do some housecleaning soon too
oldsoftie
(12,486 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,212 posts)What you said regarding skilled and polished politicians using detente speaking out on this subject.
It becomes incendiary at any given moment.
💙 🇺
2naSalit
(86,308 posts)they can't handle the truth so they attack what and whomever they can to deflect.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)She appears to want attention rather than results.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I don't think she wants attention for herself and I don't think she's dumb. I'd say she's inexperienced and needs to stop and think before she speaks. Learning to do that is a problem for all young people with passion.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Saying that Omar doesn't realize that some words have a separate, special meaning to the area discussion and Omar has gotten trapped by the code of the region. Of course she is talking about the unnecessarily harsh treatment of the Palestinian people. Let that discussion begin. It is long past due.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)and forbids most posts about those issues in most of the rest of the site.
It's always a hot-button issue that generates bitter disputes. National politicians mostly are silent about it, for that very reason. Representative Omar is not quite as aware of that as she might be. I'm sure she'll learn to not be so public with her opinions on the issue.
All I will say is that disapproval of Israel's border policies and such issues is not anti-semitism. It is disapproval of something a government is doing.
Caliman73
(11,722 posts)There will always be people who take offense to ANY criticism regardless, but as you said, criticism for policies and their impact on other people, mainly the Palestinians is valid. It is also the way in which that information is expressed. People need to be very careful about not using tropes that have been associated with historical Jewish stereotypes when discussing problems with Israeli policy.
MattP
(3,304 posts)And way to start another fire
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)and Omar has not only failed to do that, she seems willing to throw down with all sides.
It doesn't matter whether she is right or wrong; her tactics guarantee active opposition.
LuvLoogie
(6,908 posts)for the better.
The GOP, with it's strategy of gerrymandering and voter caging, undermines that political process by allowing partisan ideologues to legislate and govern.
Omar will either change or be voted out. Democrats don't get very far in their districts for very long by attacking the party leadership. Our leadership still values persuasion, compromise, and consensus. They also take a long view of inclusion, while the GOP has taken a long view of gaining and holding power above all.
The arbitrary, post-war break-up of the middle east was an old-world remnant of feudalism, it seems. We are trying to modernize relationships within a structure that was set up to be the west's gas pump, without much thought as to the native societies.
I admire Omar's fearlessness, but it is unfocused--and she is going to have to weigh the interests of our enemies against the goals of our leaders.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I have doubts a Muslim can ever be accepted as non-partisan on any subject pertaining to Israel. Whether or not they really are I think people will always say "That's a Muslim, they can't be objective."
Duppers
(28,117 posts)LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)She has every right to, of course, but, as I said, it's a tactic that guarantees active opposition.
McKim
(2,412 posts)I am glad she wears her scarf. America needs to get used to it if we are to grow together.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 9, 2019, 04:58 PM - Edit history (2)
You don't build coalitions by staring off with "get used to it".
Edited to add: Actually, to be honest, I do personally have a problem with it. I dislike any religious display in the government. But, she is within her rights, and the rules of the House.
radius777
(3,635 posts)and don't care for religious displays in politics or political activism.
There are exceptions, like holidays/events important to that particular group.
It is OK for one to draw broadly upon one's faith (or various faiths) to make a secular point, the way many civil rights leaders did, who didn't push a Christian agenda but a classical liberal one using Biblical imagery.
Overall though religious displays generally are tribalist and ugly, the opposite of liberal.
LuvLoogie
(6,908 posts)Can the same be said of trump and his state department?
DavidDvorkin
(19,465 posts)Those were not attacks on Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Larrybanal
(227 posts)pazzyanne
(6,543 posts)DU gives everyone a chance to discuss their opinions as long as the discourse remains civil.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)DavidDvorkin
(19,465 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)Even using the word "Israel" in conjunction with the most insipid and milktoast of chastisements is enough to roust out the usual chorus of howlers from the halls of Congress to internet forums, their stock and trade grievance wails beat down any criticism.
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)Or was it merely that it wasn’t her intent and the phraseology coincidentally was that of the dog whistles?
DavidDvorkin
(19,465 posts)I started out wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt and assumed that it was just thoughtlessness or verbal clumsiness. But I've been moving in the direction of thinking it's intentional.
If it's the second, then of course she doesn't deserve the support of Democrats. If it's the first, then I hope she'll learn to be more careful with word choice.
In either case, it's unwise to pretend that this isn't a problem.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Israel HAS been repressive, something should be done. As to what, I am not exactly sure.
The whole problem could be solved at anytime by the other Arabs states giving the Palestinians citizenship. But they do not want to do that because they use the fate of the Palestinians, as a club to beat up on Israel, and to keep their populations stirred up. By doing so, they avoid the people focusing on their own corrupt governments.
As far as the "Right of Return" and all that implies, is never going to happen. No more than the Cuban-Americans "Right of Return" to Cuba, and reclaim all the property that was seized a long time ago. Just like Texas and the Southwest being returned to Mexico. All are sheer fantasies.
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)Rep. Ilhan Omar's words have been disgraceful in this Democrat's estimation.
oldsoftie
(12,486 posts)And NONE of her apologies have been true apologies, regardless of the topic.
George II
(67,782 posts)...because he has a nice smile.
She also said that Obama's "hope and change" was a mirage.
She is one of only 435 members of Congress, she represents hundreds of thousands of people, her words SHOULD be "well thought out" before she speaks.
This latest uproar has nothing to do with Israel or Netanyahu, it has to do with false statements about President Obama.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)My post is not about the "latest uproar" and I'm not going to let you distract to that.
It's about the treatment in general. Try to stay on topic and not distract.
George II
(67,782 posts)...faux pas. She's actually said very little about Palestine.
sprinkleeninow
(20,212 posts)BTW, George, I am of one mind and one accord of all you have expressed.
I'm happy for her getting elected. However she needs to cool her jets and request critique of any future public statements. Which may only come with further experience as a federal representative.
TwilightZone
(25,426 posts)In the real world, context is a thing. Expecting everyone else to focus only on whatever small piece of the whole you want to discuss, while ignoring the rest, isn't terribly realistic.
radius777
(3,635 posts)expect to get hammered, as he is a figure that is universally loved by Democrats and others.
Her words against Jews and Obama were not mere policy critiques, but vicious and personal, and played upon insidious tropes.
tritsofme
(17,367 posts)Omar's problems do not exist in a vacuum. She is only a step away from calling President Obama a POCUCS, it is despicable.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)If you want to have a different discussion than the one I started that's perfectly fine. Go start a thread on it yourself.
Otherwise, try to show more respect than you have so far and stay on topic.
tritsofme
(17,367 posts)Trying to shut down conversation in a thread complaining about conversation being shut down...lol, irony is a lost art.
George II
(67,782 posts)...she's been criticized (not shut down):
For making anti-Semitic or implying anti-Semitic comments, i.e, "it's all about the Benjamins"
For accusing other members of Congress of having "dual" loyalty or even having more loyalty to Israel than the US
For claiming Obama's "hope and change" was a mirage
For saying Obama caged children
For saying Obama "got away with murder" because he's more polished and has a nice smile
She could have an honest discussion about her policy positions about anything without peppering her speech with insults, accusations, or anti-Semitic comments.
kcr
(15,313 posts)If someone uses dog whistles that are easily avoidable to talk about a subject, then it's relevant to bring up that she also uses other right-wing talking points if someone is trying to defend her. Bigoted dog whistles plus right-wing talking points equals not an accident.
oldsoftie
(12,486 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)
And who was President at the time?
George II
(67,782 posts)
RandySF
(58,441 posts)
peggysue2
(10,819 posts)of Omar's clumsiness in her wording and the Republicans cheering her on. What better way to take the spotlight off their own treasonous, criminal behavior than projecting all sins in the direction of our new outspoken congress critters. I was willing to give Omar the benefit of the doubt on the last go-around. But to dive right in with another controversial comment just looks reckless to me, less an oversight than a deliberate rocking of the Democratic boat.
To what end? would be my question.
There's no justification in equating the Obama Administration with the Trumpster, particularly in a pre-primary season building to the 2020 election, a contest that will determine the fate of the Republic and all of our lives.
We want progressive reforms, be they in domestic or foreign policy? I guarantee they won't be coming from Trump or his Republican enablers.
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)Western "civilization" and white privilege bias on display in her detractors. And in BOTH parties, I am very sorry to say.
I believe that everyone should take a minute or two and read this article.
https://www.juancole.com/2019/03/somalia-explaining-scares.html?fbclid=IwAR05Du6cYlWYjwlVWmbQMXY2ZyVcDMJtrU-goNQYOeMOUugB8XyZIFBRJfQ
From the link:
The voice of former and present colonies has been heard, however, since last November, in the persons of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar. They are all Americans, but of Puerto Rican, Palestinian and Somali heritage, respectively.
Ilhan Omar has stirred national debate by taking up the cause of the displaced and stateless Palestinians, Israel’s victims who cannot be acknowledged in most of Washington because of the prevailing triumphalist Zionist narrative that erases the Palestinians from history. More recently, she slammed Barak [sic] Obama for his treatment of undocumented immigrants and for his escalation of the drone wars.
...
When the victims of this European Fascism and its less explicit successors speak from Congress, they do not forget. They do not forget the refugees and the displaced, whether Somali or Palestinian. They do not forget the powerless and subjected and forgotten, whether Somali or Palestinian or Puerto Rican. They do not forget the civilian victims of the “war on terror,” or the US coddling of the Saudis, who have sometimes inspired hard line movements to attack tolerant Muslim traditionalism.
The people of the South, the people of the bottom of the world, the refugees and the children crawling hungry through the rubble, the fishermen whose catch was stolen by multinational corporations, the cattle herdsmen who watched global heating dessicate their cows– do not remember modernity as the old white men who still dominate Capitol Hill do.
IronLionZion
(45,380 posts)Republicans want Democrats to spend a lot of time and attention on a few freshman minority congresswomen instead of going after Republicans. It's a bit too obvious.
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)This is the "Justice Democrats"/Brand New Congress playbook for damaging the Democratic Party.
Halas!
fountainofyouth
(409 posts)She is called anti-Semitic because she uses anti-Semitic tropes to criticize Americans. Her own constituents!
TNNurse
(6,924 posts)It is a country with a government. Yes, I know the origin but that still does not make it a damn religion.
Criticizing a government is not attacking the religion of some of the people.
Clearly these people do not care anything at all about the Palestinians.
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)...without even taking time to learn what it is. Whenever a people is subjugated by imperial powers, the subjugated group is demonized through racism. I look at what people say about Palestinians on both the left and right and see an instinctive disdain for brown colonized people. Anyone familiar with the impact of global empires would recognize this racism. Sadly, far too many people in the U.S. come from and identify with countries that conquered and ruled other countries, so to acknowledge this makes them feel uncomfortable and defensive.
Response to bitterross (Original post)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I'm not going to debate the topic of Israel/Palestine in this Forum/thread.
This thread is about the treatment of Omar. Not about Israel vs Palestinians.
Mosby
(16,252 posts)That's a clear reference to the Palestinian/Israel conflict.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)There is a difference.
Response to bitterross (Reply #58)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)Response to Mosby (Reply #47)
Kurt V. This message was self-deleted by its author.
fountainofyouth
(409 posts)That she gets in trouble when she talks about Americans, not anyone in the Middle East? "All about the Benjamins," "allegiance to a foreign country" -- these are not comments about the Palestinians.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
BeyondGeography
(39,341 posts)She’s also not ready for prime time. Would that she become more cognizant of her limitations. She should respond to her stumbles of the past week with humility and a desire to improve, not anger. She’s more likely to progress if she doesn’t make excuses and marginalize herself by taking the path to victimhood, which is the trap being set for her by the very forces you identify.
DirtEdonE
(1,220 posts)Still stinks.
"Just as the Trump and the hard-right in the US deserve to be called out for their treatment of minorities, so too does Netanyahu and the hard-right of Israel for their treatment of people."
+1
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Chris Hayes did a thread on this
Link to tweet
I should stop tweeting about this but wth: If members of congress are opposed to the current nature of the US relationship with Israel and/or the current actions of the Israeli government then they should offer first-order criticisms of what the Israeli govertment is doing...
rather than dark intimations about allegiances and loyalty.
Just make the actual critique rather than talking about why you're not allowed to make the critique.
For instance, as @PeterBeinart notes in his column at the @jdforward, the UN just released a report that found:
“Israeli security forces killed and maimed Palestinian demonstrators who did not pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury to others when they were shot” during last year's multi-day protests at the Gaza border.
The report found the total deaths of 189 Palestinians, including 35 children.
Back when the protests were happening, I did a commentary on my show, saying that firing on protesters in the manner IDF was doing was indefensible.
My inbox was flooded with hundreds, maybe thousands (?) of emails demanding I apologize or calling for me to be fired. But in the end, it passed and we kept doing our work.
The point is that the notion of some taboo on criticizing Israel ends up both feeding into anti-semitic myths about Jewish control while also being self-defeating for people of all faiths and backgrounds who are critical of the Israeli government.
PatrickforO
(14,557 posts)last night.
He pointed out that our party wastes lots of time and life force attacking each other when we ought to be focused on a) how the platform will help the American people and b) the increasing revelations around Trump's utter criminality. I thought that was an interesting point - it is a shortcoming in this party to eat our own.
Next, he had an MSNBC guy on who was Jewish and he was sticking up for Omar, which I have been too, because Israel is over the top in the way they treat the Palestinian minority that lives there. The guy did say that Omar should ix-nay on the 'dual allegiance' comments because that was how the right-wing in Germany talked through the 20s and 30s. Which is true, if you've read your history.
Now, here's my take: Omar is scary to all the old white guys who have taken money from AIPAC over the years and made Israel a 'sacred cow,' so we love them no matter what they do. That's because she is a) black, b) Muslim, and c) wears a scary hijab.
That isn't right. Because this apartheid set of policies Israel has to the Palestinians under Netanyahu, who is definitely a right wingnut, has got to be debated.
And, to criticize Israel's policies, or AIPAC's tactics as a US lobby, to my mind is fair game, and certainly doesn't make one an anti-Semite. If any country with whom we are allied oppresses its minorities, then we need to be adding that to the debate concerning our policy toward them. Examples are the Sunnis, the Kurds, the Armenians, the Palestinians.
Our foreign policy actions are also, or should be, open for debate. These forever wars have got to stop, but we have to find a way not to leave a big vacuum when we pull out. Complicated stuff.
But Omar, in my opinion, is not an anti-Semite.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)JI7
(89,239 posts)radius777
(3,635 posts)between the West (and defense of it) and all other values... it's what FDR and Truman believed and what is the basis (the Truman Doctrine) of modern American foreign policy.
That's why America tends to stand by Israel - not because of "the Benjamins" or whatever antisemitic bullshit - but because of a shared Western ideology.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)From the SOP of the General Discussions Forum:
Please post your OP in the Israel/Palestine Group
