Democratic socialism

[vlyons]

Next time some Republican idiot equates socialism with despotism or communism, ask him if he would rather travel on the interstate highway, or build his own highway system. Ya know, the interstate highway system created under the presidency of that notorious socialist, Dwight D. Eisenhower, who as a 5 star general leading the allied armies to rush across Europe to defeat the Nazis, knew a thing or 2 about the importance of really good highways.

Or ask him if he would like to visit a National Park like Yellowstone, or build his own national park. Ya know, Yellowstone Park created as a national park under that notorious socialist Theodor Roosevelt, who knew a thing or 2 about preserving and conserving our most beautiful pristine areas as national parks to be enjoyed by our children for generations to come.

[guillaumeb]

1. The US Postal System.

#1 in the world for efficiency and prices.

[lapucelle]

29. In what way is the USPS an example of democratic socialism? N/T

[guillaumeb]

40. It is Government owned and operated. Thus socialism.

And most of the workers are represented by unions, thus the democratic component.

Does it stretch the definition a bit? Yes, but in the face of a GOP war on the concept of government itself, we need to remind voters that government can do many things far more efficiently than can private enterprise.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

2. Exactly right!!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[GulfCoast66]

3. This is getting old. Nothing you mentioned is socialism.

Not even close.

Socialism has one understood meaning outside of republicans who think it means any government and apparently some on the left who think it means, well, active government.

Socialism is the state(collective) ownership of business and industry(the means of production).

Unless you believe in that, you, regardless of how you identify, are not a socialist.

Many here seem to want to change the definition, but it is not going to happen.

[ornotna]

7. That's communism

Socialism is characterized by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.

[GulfCoast66]

8. Do you even think about what you write?

You just made my point. Public, collective or cooperative ownership of equity, which in the real world means capital. In other words, not private.

So business and industry is not privately owned!

God god! Are you new to this?

Do me a favor. Name me a nation that meets your criteria? I can think of 2.

[ornotna]

10. Why so upset?

Did I touch a nerve? Specifically What you described was a communist state. Personally I am not in favor of a communist state. Calm down anonymous internet person.

[GulfCoast66]

12. I'm not at all upset.

But I gave you the definition of Socialism and you disagreed and then describe socialism to be as I had just stated.

So to continue the discussion. Putting aside my perceived emotional state, do you really not want private ownership of business and industry. Because if you do not, then you are indeed a socialist and perhaps the first I have met on DU.

But if like me you want our nation to more closely resemble those in Western Europe, which are all prosperous capitalist societies with strong social democratic policies then you should consider the fact you do not indeed want socialism.

And have unintentionally and understandably bought into the corporate created idea that all government for the people is socialism which the MSM pushes.

My guess is that if we were sitting next to each other in a bar, or coffee shop, we would quickly reach consensus. Online communication with strangers is not something we evolved to do. So much of communication is visual.

I am not upset at all with you. But am indeed troubled how so many liberal democrats have been convinced that what we want is socialism.

[ornotna]

15. "Do you even think about what you write?"

"God god! Are you new to this?"

Sure seems like you're upset.

At no point did I defend or even imply that I was a follower/believer of socialism. I was merely pointing out that your statement was describing a communist state. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

[GulfCoast66]

16. Ok. Assume I was pissed off if it helps. But that is not what this general discussion is about.

It was about getting to the definition of Socialism.

Do you disagree that democrats do not support socialism? I have never heard a DU member support eliminating private ownership of the means of production. Which as you posted, is the definition of Socialism.

If you don’t support that, you are not a socialist. If you do, we disagree.

[ornotna]

20. I am not a socialist

I am not in favor of the elimination of private ownership of production. I'm just a Democrat.

[GulfCoast66]

21. Me too!

[brush]

18. Communism is a form of socialism. The poster actually...

accurately described what socialism is—the government owns the means of production—"those who don't work, don't eat", or "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Actual socialism is no joke. It's 180 degrees different from what we have. Those claiming to be democratic socialists are injecting a pejorative connotation into what being a Democrat is about and the repugs are loving it as they run with it to smear us and appeal to the 50% of people who view socialism negatively.

[mia]

19. "social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management"

can be achieved under a capitalistic system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanlon_plan

The Scanlon plan has been successfully used by a variety of public and private companies for many decades. These plans combine leadership, total workforce education, and widespread employee participation with a reward system linked to organization performance. The Scanlon plan is a gainsharing program in which employees share in pre-established cost savings, based upon employee effort. Formal employee participation is necessary with the Scanlon Plan, as well as periodic progress reporting and an incentive formula.

[pnwmom]

26. What government anywhere has used the Scanlon plan? n/t

[FBaggins]

35. Not so

What you're describing is more accurately described as socialist but trying to use market forces to improve outcomes. It isn't capitalism if the capital is owned collectively.

[mia]

37. The capital isn't owned collectively.

Here's an interesting article about the subject.

http://www.ame.org/sites/default/files/target_articles/07-23-6-Scanlon_Principles.pdf

[FBaggins]

38. Then it isn't "social ownership of the means of production"

That's really the dividing line. The confusion in this case is that your general statement in the title is not supported by the example you provided in either post (i.e., "Scanlon" companies are not examples of social ownership).

You can have a socialist system that tries to use market forces (including worked incentives that pay more for higher performance)... but that doesn't make it a capitalist economy. Recent growth in China makes a decent example.

And you can have a capitalist system where some companies involve employees deeper into the running of the business and more equitable sharing of profits... but that doesn't make it any less capitalistic. Lots of successful companies do that.

The question is who owns/controls the companies. To the extent it's the government, the system is socialist. To the extent it's shareholders/individuals, it's capitalist.

[pnwmom]

25. You just said that socialism involves social ownership of the means of production and workers'

self management.

Correct. It's NOT free trade or private property or capitalism.

[JHB]

4. I disagree. Keep it simple and throw it right back in their faces.

"Republicans call everything they don't like 'socialism'."

You can pepper it with examples, but the main thrust has to be going straight at their fundamental claim and calling it bullshit.

[pampango]

30. Yep. Republicans hammered on the word "Liberals" forever and turned it into a dirty word.

They do the same with 'socialism' presenting it as the alternative to 'freedom'. (Kind of like giving people a choice between eating broccoli or having sex - not exactly related or mutually exclusive alternatives.)

We can spend our time playing the 'Socialism! No it's not.', 'Socialism! No it's not.' word game. Or we can present our policies to help the working and middle classes and let them counter with "Socialism! Socialism!" and see if their strategy does not implode as it did when they attacked the introduction of Social Security, Medicare, progressive taxes, safety net programs, etc. Perhaps republicans crying 'wolf' (socialism!) will take the sting out of the term in the long run.

[mia]

5. I will never justify Democratic Socialism for any reason.

Calling humane, democratic principles a form of socialism brings the Democratic party down.

[brush]

6. We political junikies here know that, but the recent poll out...

shows the word "socialism" is viewed negatively by 50% of those polled (positlvly by only 18%), so we have to figure out how to implement programs that help the 99% without craming the word down people's throats.

We're smart enough as a party to do it, as did FDR and LBJ.

[GulfCoast66]

9. Well, since both FDR and LBJ hated socialism, I agree.

[lapucelle]

11. Is your argument that any sort of collective project funded by tax dollars

and accomplished through government action and that the commons are examples of social control of the means of production?

[mwooldri]

13. America is already a socialist country of sorts.

Roads, defence, half of the healthcare system, schools, libraries, broadcast media regulations, safety regulations, social security... I could continue and find a lot of socialist programs that exist in America right now.

[GulfCoast66]

17. Nothing you posted is an example of socialism.

Good government, yes. Social democracy, of course.

But socialism is the public ownership of the means of production. Meaning the government controls business and industry.

What we all want is not socialism. Words have meanings.

FDR was not a socialist. LBJ was not a socialist.

They were liberal democrats.

[Alea]

22. I wish everything you've written about this subject

over the past few days could be put in one post and pinned to the top of the forum so the non sense could stop. Probably still be people that don't get it though.

[Lucid Dreamer]

23. Right on GC.

Now I hope that we can get a candidate to say

"These are not socialist [or -ism], and I am not a socialist."

If we send forth a self-proclaimed socialist, I fear doom.

[brush]

32. Spot on. Those calling themselves democratic socialists are doing repugs a favor.

Kamala Harris specifically said, when asked if she was a democratic socialist, answered that she was not. She said I am a Democrat.

She understands what the recent poll out shows, 50% of those polled view the word "socialism" negatively.

[ForgedCrank]

14. another important point you leave out is

that we do have some highways and "interstate" style roads that are not built using much as far as public funds.
Commonly referred to as toll roads that most people will avoid if at all possible.
Ask them why they don't want to pay to drive on it if socialism is so bad.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

24. Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production and distribution...

combined with the elimination of private enterprise. It generally presupposes a command economy (aka central planning) instead of free markets.

Road building isn't socialism or every government in history would be socialist.

How many times do we need to debunk the same silly argument in one day?

It is starting to feel like gaslighting.

[JHB]

27. Don't ask them a damn thing. They call everything they don't like 'socialism'

You're not going to get anywhere dickering over definitions. Just call their stream of horseshit what it is.

[pampango]

31. Anything that does not benefit the rich and corporations ONLY is, by their definition, 'socialism'.

'Trickle down' unregulated capitalism is the only thing they accept as not being 'socialism'. We play the game by the rules developed by the republican PR 'word twisting' machine, at our own peril.

[Hoyt]

28. The are fine with socialism that benefits them, not something they don't see themselves getting.

Of course, they are often wrong about what they might need.

[RandiFan1290]

33. They will call our candidate a socialist no matter who we nominate.

Stop letting them lead you by the nose.

[brooklynite]

34. Isn't it interesting that we didn't have to try to redefine socialism before a socialist got in?

For years conservatives falsely claimed that public services were "socialism", and we denied it, and got elected anyway. Now we apparently have to claim that they ARE "socialism" because it helps a self-described "Democratic Socialist"?

[Joe941]

36. Why not just own socialism and say Socialism Capitalism.

Its the truth... (go Bernie).

[FBaggins]

39. Likely to be just as successful as those Christian Athiests

Why be pinned down to a position when you can just claim to be both?

[roamer65]

41. I call it Managed Capitalism.