Trump is an Illegitimate President Due to a Conspiracy with a Hostile Foreign Power

[dlk]

As the evidence continues to be revealed, we need to keep in mind this makes all of Trump’s appointments and all of his nominations for appointments illegitimate. It also makes all of their collective decisions and rules illegitimate. This goes far beyond a Constitutional crisis. What are the solutions that I believe go far beyond impeachment of Trump? Robert Reich has suggested an annulment. What would that look like? We are in uncharted territory and new solutions are called for. Otherwise, I believe America is over and done.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

1. We are far from over, but, we are seriously sick.

Just need a good remedy.

[ginnyinWI]

2. Sounds nice, but.

It was the electoral college that voted him into office, however much they were misinformed or wrong. How do you get around that?

Yes it was a big boo-boo. Much damage done. But the law must be followed to get him gone.

[Farmer-Rick]

30. The electoral college gambit would NOT have worked if Traitor Trump had not conspired

with a hostile foreign power to illegally manipulate information, hack the oppositions and fund an illegal campaign

If Traitor Trump didn't have little man Putin's money to pay off at least 2 mistresses he wouldn't have won.

Traitor Trump would never have won even through the electoral if he had not used little man Putin money to finance his campaign.

Traitor Trump would never have won if little Putin had NOT hacked the Democrat's computers and illegally release that information.

Traitor Trump would never have won if stolen (in a conspiracy involving little Putin) Facebook information had NOT been handed over to Russian spies to bombard with propaganda certain key US people and locations.

Traitor Trump would never have won even in the electoral college if Russian spies on his behalf had not hacked US election computers.

I contend that even that little electoral college win of Traitor Trump was illegitimate and illegal. Yes, we have to follow the law but would you let a bank robber keep his stolen loot just because he used a perfectly legal means to open the bank safe?

[dlk]

3. This goes far beyond the Electoral College

Granted, the Elector College needs to be addressed as it was designed for anti-democratic purposes and has given us two recent presidents who lost the popular vote. In the meantime, there is a more immediate problem that needs to be dealt with—what to do about all of the illegitimate appointments and rules that pervade our government.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

4. I believe you have missed the point . . .

. . . which is that Trump was elected President -- by the Electors, per the process specified in Article II and Amendment XII -- and thus he is the President. You start your analysis with the presumption that Trump is "illegitimate," and thus his appointments, etc., are themselves also "illegitimate," but you haven't established that your presumption is valid. And, in my view at least, you cannot.

Trump is, constitutionally-speaking, the "legitimate" President. His removal from office, if that is to occur, must itself proceed from a constitutional basis.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

12. Well...Thats one persons opinion.

And if the EC was bought off? What then?

[triron]

26. The electoral college is beside the point here. Trump is indeed illegitimate in a big way.

He participated in treason to gain office.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

62. +1

Boiled it right down. Ty.

[sarah FAILIN]

8. I feel like people take the wrong way to look at this.

The electoral college was altered by the Reapportionment Act of 1929 as it is tied to representation. The original way it was set us to have fairly equal representation. In 1929 it was changed and we need to make the case imo that the 1929 change made it unfair and against the original intent. Every time we say that we were cheated, the Republicans laugh and say that our founding fathers set it up this way. We need the point made that the change was recent to be made every time we talk about the electoral college issue. We need the ec changed and we need to educate people as to why imo. All jmo..
[link:https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1901-1950/The-Permanent-Apportionment-Act-of-1929/|

[LisaM]

54. Fun factoid from that article...

The William Bankhead they mention was Tallulah Bankhead's father (and he later went on to be Speaker of the House).

[sarah FAILIN]

65. That is interesting

[dlk]

5. I Believe You Have Glossed Over the Fact of the Russian Conspiracy

If someone cheats to win, is it a legitimate win and are they legitimately entitled to their winnings?

[Buckeyeblue]

6. Sadly, breaking the law to win still counts as a win

We have no constitutional process to remove a president other than conviction in the Senate for articles of impeachment passed by the House.

If 45 is ever convicted in the Senate for the crimes he committed to become president, I think the country can have the debate about the legitimacy of his appointments. I will say that the argument that will be made is that the confirmation by the Senate makes the appointments valid.

Do I think they are valid? No. But I think the only thing we could do would be to have a national call for the resignation of any of his appointments.

But a great deal has to happen before that. We have miles to go.

[dlk]

9. This Complicated Web Will Take Years, If Ever, to Untangle

If evidence is presented that key Senators were also compromised by Russia (which is possible), What then? Are the Senate confirmations still considered legitimate? At the very least at some point, our laws need to be updated to address this widespread corruption. We can and should do better than, “to the victor belongs the spoils.” Otherwise, the next time will be much worse.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

7. The answer to your question, as I see it . . .

. . . is that, constitutionally-speaking, the answer is clearly "yes." Under the Constitution, Trump was "elected President" by the vote of the Electors, per Article II, Amendment XII, and the process laid out in 3 U.S.C. Chapter 1. Whatever cheating may have occurred in the course of the general election simply has no bearing on the legitimacy of Trump's election by the Electors.

Any analogy to other situations, apart from the Constitution, is per se irrelevant and not valid.

[dlk]

10. If that's the Case, Doesn't that Invite Future and Even Further Foreign Interference?

In your opinion cheating has no bearing, seriously, when the stakes are this high?

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

33. This isn't all that difficult . . .

The Constitution provides what it provides. Trump is an "illegitimate" President only if it can be established that he is so per the Constitution.

All of the various allegations of "treason," "cheating," what-have-you, may provide a grounds for removing Trump from office through some constitutionally-recognized process (e.g., impeachment and conviction). But the argument that any of these factors means that Trump is per se "illegitimate" -- if by that one means that Trump cannot at this moment be recognized as holding the office of "the President" -- has no basis in law, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as that goes, it doesn't have that much basis in logic either. If thinking it makes people feel better or whatnot, okay. Whatever floats your boat. When it comes to such matters, I generally prefer to live and think in the real world.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

13. Hip Hip Huzzah.

So true.

[Joe941]

11. Can we finally come to the realization that...

we need to remove tRump and have a new presidential election. He is illegitimate and that is the only fair remedy.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

14. How about we remove the russian and install who won?

Hillary Clinton.

[dlk]

15. I Believe More Than Trump Should Be Removed From Office

There should be no rewards for stealing a presidential election. How we respond to this conspiracy will impact not only our current situation. It will also impact the success or failure of future conspiracies.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

74. +1

[WillowTree]

19. So we should just ignore the Constitution?

[Joe941]

34. Americans care about fairness - this is not fair!

[WillowTree]

49. So we should just ignore the Constitution?

[Joe941]

63. The constitution failed to foresee this situation - therefore the constitution can't remedy it.

[WillowTree]

64. Sure it can. It's right there in said Constitution. Impeachment and conviction.

Of course, that's not going to happen in this situation and even if it did, it wouldn't invalidate everything that he did.

So every time this nonsense comes up, it's nothing but tilting at windmills. Our only two options are either living within the Constitution as it stands, or passing an amendment, if we can.

[triron]

35. Yep.

[WillowTree]

50. And you'll be cool with that when the Republicans do it, right? 'Cause you know they will.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

55. I've become increasingly alarmed . . .

. . . by some of the sentiments that have been expressed on DU of late, to the effect that, in the current circumstances, the Constitution, the rule of law, don't matter, that redress should pursued by other means. Even some hints, and maybe more than "hints," that action in the natural of a military coup is warranted, and would be welcomed.

Count me out.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

40. HRC said we have to fight hard and ugly THEN go back to the rules.

Dems have no problem having a conscience and following the rules.
If you fist fight w a person w a weapon...you'll lose. How long are we expected to just get raped everyday? Just wondering.

[WillowTree]

51. No. Mrs. Clinton would never suggest disregarding the Constitution.

Paraphrasing, she said that we should fight hard and ugly and then go back to being civil. Huge difference.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

52. i beg to differ. She didnt say those words exactly.

Play monopoly w someone who cheats...tell me how often you win. Her point was fight like them, until we get control, then go back to sanity. Otherwise this goes on forever. She ought to know....she got cheated the hardest,

[WillowTree]

56. Run the suggestion that we just throw out the Constitution past her.......

.......and get back to me with her response.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

57. I didnt say the constitution.

Dont go away mad. But, you know the rest right? HRC won. I take her word for what we need to do. I said above that those werent the precise words. Happy?

[WillowTree]

58. You're making no earthly sense.

Short of impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate, there isn't a constitutional way to "annul" a presidency, so what action, exactly, do you think Hillary would support , other than what's in the Constitution, to remove Trump from the White House?

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

59. G'bye. I won't be seeing you again. Have a good weekend.

[WillowTree]

60. Appropriate response when you can't raise an actual, logical argument.

[KPN]

16. I wonder. If the shoe was on the other foot, would the Rs say, oh well, he was

elected by the electors as set out in the Constitution so there is no basis for annulling the election and all laws, EOs, regulations, etc., that followed?

Or would they do everything they could to at least see key actions annulled or overturned?

And would they be successful? Given our Constitution and the fact that they are the minority party population wise, I would never have dreamed they would be as successful as they have been.

[dlk]

18. Republicans, Guns in Hand, Would Have Been Rioting in the Streets

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

45. Good point.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. Fuck no they wouldn't be laying down for it, if HRC had lost the popular vote

And won the ec.

I believe they would have done everything, up to and including armed insurrection, and they would likely end up getting what they wanted.

The Dems might even havm ended up folding, just out of a sense of fair play.

The Rs have had this pattern of going after what they want for decades now. They care absolutely nothing for the rule of law.

[INdemo]

17. We got by the stolen election of 2000 and 2004 and if the true facts

were revealed the election of 1968 and 1972 were stolen..we got thru all of those Republican conspiracies and we will get through this one..
Come to think about it, sure 1980 was a landslide for Reagan but with all the propaganda bullshit and the Iranian behind the scenes BS ..1980 in effect was stolen too...Then the Iran Contra was downplayed by the media and Reagn should have been impeached back then.
So history teaches us that Republicans have never won an election without cheating.
I suspect that going back to 1932 even Republicans with Hoover tried to steal it then.

[KPN]

22. Got by? How so? Look where we are now.

Look at the decline of our middle class the past 40+ years, let alone what we are dealing with today.

We survived maybe, but not without great and lasting damage. Oh, we’ve made some gains, but only on the things that are not of highest priority for the .01%.

[INdemo]

37. You are coreect but what Im talking about

we still have our Democracy and something will break and Democrats will gain back both houses plus White House.
We have to eliminate Citizen's United,the Major step in regaining our middleclass status.

[KPN]

38. Okay. When we survive this one, we had

better move substantively forward economically or all we will have done is survived to experience it again imo.

[triron]

20. +10000

[iluvtennis]

25. +20000

[dlk]

21. To Minimize Future Election Thefts, Our Voting Systems Need to be Cleaned Up

This is a critical first step. In this day and age, there’s really no excuse for our multitude of sloppy and inaccurate systems, as well as the widespread voter suppression. We still need a solution for the current situation with Trump & co.

[StarzGuy]

23. Absolutely!

I only wish politicians had a backbone to tackle an annulment. Sadly, they have no spine for such an endeavor. Is there any polling that shows support for such a path by the American electorate? I'd like to see it.

The damage that has already been done to the United States of America will take decades to repair, if ever.

Otherwise, allowing these criminals to continue to gut the US of its moral authority not to mention screwing the middle class which is no longer a "thing" and anyone not filthy rich already out of our financial security and medical care for now and the future, does lead to your conclusion that America is over and done.

Once upon a time I marveled at what our country was achieving. Trips to our neighbor the Moon, Mars and beyond inspired me and others to pursue our science degrees and work for the likes of NASA. I dreamed that one day I would be able to go to space. I also thought that most certainly we would be on Mars with human exploration teams on the Red Planet.

Sadly, with the help of mostly repukes our space program was gutted. Now, the budget for NASA is but a fraction of 1% of the total government budget. That sorry ass level of support gets us no where, at least anytime in my future.

Just research NASA. ESA and other partners trying to get the James Webb space telescope off the ground. Late by a couple of decades and way over budget, problems with the technology and lack of appropriate funding levels makes me wonder if it will ever get out to its planned orbit at L2. NASA has requested more funding. But the US Congress isn't likely to pony up the extra funds. I think the only way forward is to have NASA partners take over the project.

Besides, chemical rockets don't get you very far into deep space and are generally too slow in any case. What we need if we are going to survive as a species is to become a space traveling race. It would be a sad day to see the Chinese or other countries be the first boots on other worlds. According to recent developments with the Chinese push on to the Moon with a lander and rover on the far side means that they are taking the lead in space exploration. We in the US are content on watching The Price Is Right" and wasting money on junk we don't need.


This is only a little bit of my anger at what is happening now here in the US.

[anarch]

41. yeah, we have definitely pretty much conceded that we've lost the Space Race n/t

[WillowTree]

43. It has nothing to do with whether Congress has spine or not.

The hard, cold fact is that there is NO PROVISION in the Constitution for an "annulment" of a certified election. So, to do what you and the OP want would require a Constitutional amendment which probably wouldn't pass anyway.

In other words, the only option is for the House to impeach and the Senate to convict and step 2 isn't going to happen.

Better start dealing with that.

[First Speaker]

24. To suggest that Trump is legitimate is to say that the Constitution really is a suicide pact...

[maltzmax]

27. Mass protests

It is time for mass protests demanding his removal. Remember the women's march? It was world wide. I have looked into various websites of groups that organize protests. Nothing about an organized march to demand trumps removal. Why not?

[ffr]

29. We're up for it. If the organization happens, we''ll be there again.

[cilla4progress]

28. Obviously,

Hillary is Prez. Garland at SC. And someone new.

We can't stand for this theft!

[cstanleytech]

31. Correction, it should be "due to an ongoing conspiracy with a hostile foreign power"

[NRaleighLiberal]

32. Many of us here have suspected that from theft..er, election..night

Still many who can't go there, sadly

[Initech]

36. Actually make that *TWO* hostile foreign powers.

Since the Khashoogi murder last year I really wonder how much of a hand the Saudis have had in this whole thing, especially since they're allies with Russia and they stand to profit *HANDSOMELY* if this insane weapons deal goes through. God help us if they actually use them.

[anarch]

39. we have no constitutional remedy for this kind of situation - the America that was, is gone

The nation that we were will never magically reappear as if the events of 2015-present/ongoing/whenever this fucking nightmare ends never happened. We are diminished, and forever changed with respect to the ideals that at least some of us thought our nation was founded upon. The war is over, and we lost.

But, here we all still are, so we're going to have to deal with it some way or another. I don't think an annulment would be feasible (but I'll go check out what Reich as to say about it...); I think we're going to probably have to just adapt and move on...I doubt the full truth of what happened will ever be fully revealed to the public (as it might completely shatter everyone's concept of America to the point that we really would be done, as in society falling apart and it all turns into the movie The Road Warrior or something), and we'll have to live with the consequences of the Republicans' criminal conspiracy, theft of the election, and subsequent packing of the courts with right wing assholes.

How we move forward is going to depend on the political will of the huge segment of the population that is disaffected and disengaged from politics. I think there will also be exponentially increasing impacts of climate change over the next decade that will change people's perceptions on the issue, so that may become a much larger issue, particularly among younger voters.

[brooklynite]

42. No he's not...

...because that's not the way our Government works.

He's legitimate because the Electors of the States picked him. Whether he and the Russians attempted to sway voters has no Constitutional impact. And there's nobody in Government (including those calling for Impeachment) who will be saying his appointments and decisions are illegitimate on that basis.


FWIW - Nixon clearly cheated in order to win in 1972; nobody subsequently claimed his appointments were illegitimate.

[DavidDvorkin]

44. Not this again.

[WillowTree]

53. Proof positive that hope really does spring eternal.

[DavidDvorkin]

61. And leads to denial of reality.

[First Speaker]

68. I have news for you. You'll be hearing more and more of "this again" as time goes on...

...and the full scope of what happened to put this "administration" in power becomes clear. The Constitutional crisis hasn't begun yet. Calls to annul this "administration's" judicial picks is going to be a mainstream Dem cause sooner than anyone expects. I know this, because I am a moderate, slightly right-of-center Dem, at least by DU's standards, on actual issues. But on the question of the legitimacy--or lack of it--of this "administration", I am getting more and more radical by the day. And if I feel this way, others--lots of others--will, too. A Dem Presidential candidate who ran on this issue--the annulment of Trump's Federal judges--would win the nomination. There isn't any doubt in my mind on this point whatever. And if the media and the Repubs squeal, all the better. Do you think *they* would hesitate, or make "constitutional" arguments, were the shoe on the other foot? They would be plotting a military coup, and taking arms into the streets, and everybody knows it. As for invoking Nixon--nothing he did, not even the Chennault Affair, comes within a million miles of acting as an agent of a foreign despot, with orders to destroy the United States. And that of course is what happened in 2016. And for that matter...one wonders what would have happened, had the Chennault Affair become public knowledge during the Watergate Crisis in 1973-4. I think the reaction to the Nixon Regime would have been more radical than it actually was...

[DavidDvorkin]

70. It remains meaningless, a fantasy, a pointless distraction.

[patphil]

46. Yes, the trump presidency is invalid.

I agree that all trump has done is invalid due to the fraudulent election results in the 2016 presidential election. And, many republican senators and representatives are complicit.
That is why the republicans in congress will defend him to the end. They are afraid that they will go down if he goes down.
Some of the republican rats have abandon ship, like Paul Ryan. Others like Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, Devin Nunes, and others have decided to fight to the bitter end.
They have no love for this country, only for power and profit.
The good that may come from all this is that the republican party will probably drown in its own sewage from the crap they have been spewing out for decades when the 2020 election is held.
The bad news is that the election is nearly 2 years away, and trump continues to erode the office of the presidency with each passing day.
Don't expect impeachment to save the republic.
It will take 20 republican senators voting with all the democrats to do that. Too many of them see that as a career ending vote.
Unfortunately the Greed Over People party cares less for the country than they do for themselves.

Patrick Phillips

[1democracy]

47. Totally agree!

What is the recourse if a person corruptly took office of the President? I'm not sure the founders thought of this possibility...The Repubs thought Obama was not legit (birthers) and so attempted to block or undo everything he accomplished. It's ironic to realize they set the standard for erasing a legacy.


Trump is ILLEGITIMATE and if I had the guts I'd use the other word for it, the B-word.
Trump has B _ _ _ _ _ Dized the Presidency, he is the B-President!

[sarisataka]

48. Oh goody

We can rehash this for the 851st time

Short answer- there is no solution outside of the Constitution without replacing the Constitution

[Honeycombe8]

66. This has always been a strong possibility, for me.

It started election night, when I asked what extent the Russians had on that shocking result that didn't jive w/the data.

[humbled_opinion]

67. I guarantee as the evidence

is presented and he resigns the office gets pardoned by Pence every Rethug will be calling on Democrats to come together for the sake of unity in the nation, and as usual, sadly our side will oblige.

[pbmus]

77. Pence s Pardon Power is for federal offense s.....

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2019, 04:17 AM - Edit history (1)

SDNY and many other prosecutors have there sights firmly on the goal...

The Con and his family are done...toast...burnt, for the rest of their miserable traitorous lives..

And many of the cast of criminal s that he has appointed are also toast....ie; greedy minuchin...lil ol me sessions, etc...

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

69. This has been brought up numerous times before

And the answer is the same and will never change. Any laws we want repealed, Executive orders overturned, and judicial appointees removed, all must be done through the already established processes provided by the Constitution. The process exists for all.

[Baltimike]

72. YAAAAAAS!!!!!!! nt

[Cha]

73. I agree with the title but not that

"We're over". We persevere, we persist, we Never give up.

[triron]

75. kick for visibility

[Meowmee]

76. Agree

He is not a legitimate prez, and he is a criminal/ traitor/ fascist supported by other fascists and criminals, but we are not done until everyone gives up which isn't going to happen. I don’t think an anulment whatever that would entail will ever happen so other means such as impeachment and prosecution afterwards must be used to stop him and remove him from any position of power.