Violence against Jewish People Makes No Sense at All.

[MineralMan]

Last edited Sun Oct 28, 2018, 01:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Violence, in general, makes no sense, but attacking people who follow a religion that represents about 2% of the US population and about .2% of the world population is beyond senseless. How can such a tiny minority be a threat to anyone? Why so much hatred against a small group that worships a deity that is also worshipped by billions of Christians and Muslims?

Where did that animosity and violence come from? What could be the cause for such extreme prejudice that someone shoots up a worship service or puts millions of followers of Judaism to death in concentration camps? What on Earth have Jewish people done to harm anyone in the first place?

The animosity is centuries old, to be sure. But why? It makes no sense whatsoever.

If this puzzles you as much as it does me, you can look into it. A good starting point is this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Perhaps that link should be required reading for everyone.

[edhopper]

1. 2 thousand years

of Christianity vilifying the Jewish people is a start.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes. That is certainly part of it.

The Roman Catholic Church, in centuries past, led that vilification, but other Christian denominations have also vilified Jewish people. Martin Luther, for example, wrote a disgusting publication that did just that. It was widely quoted from by the Nazis.

Today, of course, the Lutheran Church, in most of its sub-denominations does not attack Judaism, but that was not always the case, by any means.

There is a distinct, and strong, religious element to antisemitism. It is pervasive and of long standing.

[Mosby]

58. Now the Lutherans pass divestment resolutions against Israel

http://www.jewishchronicle.org/2016/06/30/churches-pass-divestment-resolution-despite-opposition-2/

[Cirque du So-What]

2. 'Them's the people whut kilt r Christ!'

And that's almost verbatim one of the hateful utterances I heard in my youth.

[MineralMan]

20. That has been repeated again and again through

the centuries. It was never true. Jesus, historical or not, was a Jew. He was executed by the Romans who occupied that part of the world. Or so it is written, at least, and believed by those who follow Christianity.

It is a lie. The real question is: Why was that lie told again and again for so long?

[Cirque du So-What]

21. When I used that argument

the bigots would counter that Pontius Pilate washed his hands of it and left it to the Hebrew throng to decide.

I would then argue that it was God's will for the crucifixion to proceed, followed by resurrection - without which salvation would have remained unavailable to humanity. That usually brought about a swift end to discussion.

I no longer engage in such religious altercation; it's a waste of time IMO.

[MineralMan]

24. Yes. Arguing with religious believers rarely has a good outcome.

However, given the strong influence religion has on our society, it's often necessary to have the argument.

It was not until 2011 that the Pope finally said that the Jews weren't to blame for killing Jesus. 2011!

The idea was sort of dropped in 1965 as part of Vatican II, but no Pope made an argument against that prejudice until 2011.

That is truly remarkable, I think.

[The Genealogist]

57. Jesus had to die in order for Christianity to have a basis

The idea is that Jesus sacrificed himself so that humans could have salvation from their sins. This was done willingly on Jesus' part, according to my understanding of the gospel texts. Blaming Jewish people for it is just another stupid excuse to hate.

[oberliner]

3. You are seriously recommending Wikipedia as the place to learn about antisemitism?

[MineralMan]

5. I am, yes, as a starting point.

It is one place that is accessible to all. Have you read the article there? It covers the basic ground pretty thoroughly, and links to many other resources. What is your objection to the article at that site? You have provided no argument, just some sort of accusation in the form of a question. Please either support your claim of its unsuitability as a reference or retract it. I find your response to be insulting.

Obviously no single source that is easily accessed and read can tell the entire story. Wikipedia is useful because it offers a wealth of links where people can find additional information.

So, the ball is in your court. I'll wait here.

[MineralMan]

17. Why have you not returned to answer my questions?

I'm still waiting. You dropped your odorous gift in the punchbowl of this thread, and appear to feel that you done what you intended to do. Please respond.

[MineralMan]

25. I'm still waiting for your response.

I will continue to wait.

[MineralMan]

48. Still no response? Do you have nothing to say?

[MineralMan]

63. I guess you're not going to elaborate on what you implied.

Not surprising.

[blugbox]

6. Even though the world likes to pretend religion doesn't concern them

They are all somehow jealous that the Jewish are God's chosen people. And for that, the entire planet has targeted them.

I can't think of any other reason why one group has suffered so much throughout history and been targeted by so many... It boggles my mind

[MineralMan]

7. Even more confusing is that it is such a small group.

From the rhetoric, one would think that it was a dominant force on the planet, rather than a tiny minority.

[smirkymonkey]

50. I agree. I would venture to guess that most of these people don't even know any Jewish people.

This hatred has all been stoked by the right wing saying over and over again that Jews run Hollywood, Jews run all the banks, Jews run the lying media, etc... It's all hate propaganda and it's all false. Just like in Nazi Germany they are trying to create a scapegoat with no real reason behind it. They just want people to stop focusing on the real problems and turn their focus on a small defenseless group instead.

[MineralMan]

51. I'm sure you're right, or they don't know that they know some.

My first serious girlfriend in high school had the last name of Zimmerman. She and her family went to the same church I did. Some moron adult asked me once why I was dating a Jew (he used a slur). While some Zimmermans are Jewish, not all are, by any means It's not an uncommon German name. I wouldn't have cared, in any case. She was very cute and liked me a lot. What more could I ask for?

[CrispyQ]

30. That's what I think, too.

And the fact that there numbers are so few plays into it, too, especially in our Western "bigger & more is always better" culture.

People can be amazingly petty. I think the reason a lot of people don't like teachers is because they have summers off.

[dalton99a]

8. "Our fight is with the races that represent money."

- Adolf Hitler, December 18, 1919

[MineralMan]

9. Adolf Hitler lied. He needed a scapegoat, and

selected a group that had no capacity to oppose him. It was also a group with a long history of bias and prejudice against it.

[DFW]

40. It's always good to review what Hitler's Luftwaffe boss Goering said in his jail cell interviews

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?** Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

**Personal note: my father-in-law was one such "poor slob" working on a farm. He was drafted at age 17 and sent to Stalingrad. He did come back to his farm at age 18, but not in one piece.

[RKP5637]

10. Sometimes I do wonder if hatred is endemic to the human species. That some/many need a target

to hate, and what catches on becomes the same target for others, no matter how small. The hatred on earth is really stunning, often senseless and absurd. In my youth and now, it caused for me many WTF moments.

[MineralMan]

12. That's a good question. It's not one that has a simple answer, though.

Early tribal cultures often battled neighboring groups over food, territory, and other issues. There does seem to be an innate fear and dislike of the "others" embedded deeply in the primitive parts of our brains that are part of our evolutionary heritage. I suppose it's a matter of survival and competition for what was available.

That may play a role in prejudice against groups that differ from the ones we belong to. But, it's much more complicated than that, of course.

[mtnsnake]

11. The answer is easy. It's monsters like Hitler & Trump who inspire such violence

so they can advance their warped supremacist agendas. That goes for so many GOP'ers, too, including Sessions and Pence.

[jalan48]

13. Maybe Trump and the Republicans think a state of fear will benefit them on election day.

I don't think it's accidental Trump is encouraging violence in his rally speeches.

[MineralMan]

16. Fear of "Others" is a common part of populism.

Hitler used it. Most Populists use fear as a way to attract followers. It's scapegoating.

Trump is nothing, if not a Populist. I suspect he has studied Hitler, Mussolini and other populist leaders. He certainly follows their lead.

[jalan48]

18. True and from that standpoint violence against Jews makes sense in the lead-up to the election.

[MineralMan]

19. Yes, and we need to thwart it with a massive turnout that

sends an unmistakable message. I hope we do that.

[jalan48]

22. Totally agree. Election day should be interesting. I think we will need watchers at the polls to

stop the intimidation by the potentially violent Trump backers.

[MineralMan]

26. Everyone should report any intimidation to the authorities

at their own polling places. Either that or call 911 if they feel threatened.

Actually being a poll watcher may not be possible in some jurisdictions. In some places poll watchers have to jump through some hoops to be allowed to remain at polling places. Ask at your county election official's office about that if you want to do it.

[jalan48]

29. Fortunately we have vote by mail here in Oregon so there are no polling places on election day.

I hope I'm wrong but I think there will be an attempt by the right to create confusion and chaos, perhaps with the threat of violence, in those states where people vote in person.

[MineralMan]

31. That happens in every election, sadly.

It's not general, but it does occur, typically in specific places where people someone doesn't want to vote live. Unfortunately, most of us are not in those places, so we don't see it happening. There are people who are looking for such situations and who will respond to them, though.

Where I am, in Minnesota, our polling places are normally very quiet and such nonsense doesn't occur. In other places, however, things are not so peaceful and supportive.

I have no idea what to do about that.

[jalan48]

33. It's similar here as Oregon is a blue state. It does occur every election but I'm wondering how

bad it will be this time. We are seeing new "normals" every time we read the newspaper or turn on the TV. Are we about to embark on a new normal voting day?

[MineralMan]

37. I don't know, to tell you the truth.

We'll find out, though. In blue states, we're sort of insulated from what happens in red states.

[MaryMagdaline]

14. I have had to explain this to Chinese-born friends

They were fascinated with the whole idea that Jewish people were viewed as different in the West. One friend made a comment, totally without guile, “I heard Jews are the smartest. In China, we like to be like them.” A remark that both captures a stereotype but was made with great respect.

So ... I didn’t challenge the stereotype (Jews can use whatever good feelings exist in the world) but I tried to explain historical hate ... Christians hating Jews. Since no one in the group came from a monotheistic background, they had no frame of reference.

I could see how ridiculous our cultural and religious differences were when trying to explain centuries of hate to outsiders.

[MineralMan]

15. It is hard to explain to anyone who has a different philosophical

or religious perspective. Heck, it's hard for even most of us to understand.

As I said, it makes no sense at all.

[Jersey Devil]

23. It does make sense to a pragmatically evil political group

If you have no true sense of morality, don't care about the harm you do and it helps you garner more votes it makes a lot of sense.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. I don't know. But it's getting worse, along with other attacks against The Other.

Nobody, not Jews or anyone else, should be regarded as The Other, but tragically they are and have been throughout history. Humans seem to need scapegoats. Specifically, though, the abrupt rise in anti-Semitism over the last two years as documented by the ADL shows that it is no coincidence. In this excellent but very sad op-ed Howard Fineman notes that historically, Jews have been the canaries in the coal mine.

Now I must wonder: If Pittsburgh isn’t safe for Jews, if Squirrel Hill isn’t safe, if the Tree of Life isn’t safe, what place is? Without diminishing anyone else’s suffering and death, it’s a sad fact that the Jews often are the canaries in the coal mine of social and political collapse. So, what does the bloodshed in the Tree of Life mean?

It is a sign that hatred of The Other is poisoning our public life. It’s always been a vivid strain in America, stimulated by the stress of immigrant waves, but one we have overcome time and again. Although we often honor it in the breach, our founding idea remains: that each person here is precious and born with unalienable rights. Now, political enemies in America deny each other’s humanity.

It is a sign that communications can foster something less than understanding. Social media allows us to be connected but also caricatured as propaganda in campaigns of dehumanizing division.

It is a sign that President Trump’s remorselessly cynical, jungle-style vision of how to conduct business and politics is ripping apart a society already under the stress of generational, demographic, technological, economic and social change.

The rest here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/opinion/pittsburgh-squirrel-hill-shooting-synagogue.html

[MineralMan]

34. Thanks for that link. It's an excellent editorial piece.

Trump and his followers have set up many "Others" to be feared and hated. Immigrants, people of color, liberals, college graduates, etc. They are masters at attacking such groups in ways that make their supporters fearful, angry, and full of hatred.

It's the classic Populist strategy to blame identifiable groups for "all of our problems." Such blame finds eager listeners who feel left-out and unprivileged. Truth is not required - just blame and accusation.

We are living in dangerous times, I think. I'm not sure how many more chances we'll have to correct that direction. I hope, almost against hope, that enough people will get this and show up at the polls on November 6. My confidence level, however, is not particularly high. So many people are inward-looking and may not make the effort. It's frightening.

[malaise]

28. Most violence is irrational

I'm so fed up of this madness

[MineralMan]

35. I think all violence that is not defensive is senseless.

There are far too many people out there advocating for non-defensive violence. Scary.

[marylandblue]

32. Early Christian history explains it.

Christianity argued that they are the new Jews, the true chosen of God. God had cast off his former people because they rejected his Messiah. This was a great claim except for the inconvenient fact that Jews were still around, making counterclaims. So Christians tried to get rid of this inconvenience, or failing that, make them pay for merely existing. Then Islam came along and did the same thing regarding Mohammed.

[MineralMan]

36. Well, that's pretty true for early Christian Gentiles, anyhow.

Christianity didn't do all that well with Jews at the time. Still doesn't, really. It was not until it was taken to, and remodeled for, the Gentile world that it began to grow. That's why so much of Christianity is Paul-centered, rather than Jesus-centered.

Frankly, the Romans at the time had massive contempt for Jews, anyhow, so it wasn't difficult to scapegoat them in the early church. Reminding most Christians that Jesus was an observant Jew just gets a quizzical look. "Huh?"

Islam is another question, entirely. Its dislike of Judaism has even older roots, and is territorial, at least in part.

[marylandblue]

42. The pagan Romans were relatively tolerant

Their main concern was obedience to the Roman government. They did this by requiring the locals to worship the Roman gods in addition to the local gods. The Jews refused this, so the Romans made an exception- they just had to offer sacrifices for the Roman government in their Temple. The Jews rebelled anyway, but were ruthlessly crushed. Nonetheless they retained their exemption and still didn't have to worship pagan gods.

The Christians wanted this exemption too, but were not allowed because they were a new religion. Romans were superstitious about messing with old gods, figuring they had shown their power through time. But new gods had no track record, so no exemptions for Christians. The Christians tried to argue they were following the true ancient religion and therefore worthy of the exemption, not the Jews.

Early Christians were persecuted at first not because they because they refused to sacrifice to the Roman gods. In fact, that was how you avoided execution, you made the sacrifice and they released you. The ones who didn't do that became fabled martyrs.

This is also why they kept the Old Testament, even though many Christians wanted to drop it. They needed the legitimacy that having a long history brought.

[smirkymonkey]

54. I didn't grow up with anti-semitism.

The Italian side of our family saw them as a like-minded culture. I guess they never got the message about them being "Christ-killers". My old great aunt used to say "If you can't find a nice Italian man, find a nice Jewish man. They're just like us except they're not Catholic." I even found that living in NYC it was often very hard to tell the difference between someone who was Jewish or Italian unless they told your or you knew their last name. I never saw them as "other".

The only real stereotype I had was that they tended to be well-educated, liberal, humanistic and concerned with social welfare and family oriented.

[MineralMan]

64. Nor did I.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

45. That was probably an initial cause, but in recent years

anti-Semitism became racial rather than religious. The Nazis and their predecessors in Europe in the 19th century generally considered people to be Jewish even if they were non-observant, or if they or their parents or grandparents had converted to Christianity. You "inherited" Jewishness regardless of your religious practices. An example of this is the way the Richard Wagner, a virulent anti-Semite even for his time, tried to destroy Felix Mendelssohn's reputation as a composer (and competitor) because he was a Jew - although Mendelssohn was a devout Christian, his grandfather was Moses Mendelssohn, the Jewish Enlightenment philosopher. Hitler and the Nazis regarded Jewish people as belonging to an "inferior" race; religion was not the issue. It would appear that this racialism is the main basis of the current strain of anti-Semitism.

[marylandblue]

49. Hatreds remain even after the original reasons for them are forgotten.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

60. Unfortunately, that's true.

[Mosby]

59. jews were considered a race

And science at the time was being influenced by eugenics, which held that there were bad genes that needed to be eradicated from the gene pool. This notion dovetailed nicely with the Christian idea that Jews were uniquely evil and deserved nothing but contempt.

[Corvo Bianco]

38. Mel Gibson will tell you all about it with his friend Jesus

As the backdrop.

[MineralMan]

39. Sure. There are all sorts of examples of people fomenting prejudice

against Judaism. They're easy to find.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Jesus was a rabbi.

“Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him” (John 3:2).

[lunatica]

43. My two cents worth

Jews have traditionally been used as scapegoats by unscrupulous leaders in order to maintain power. Especially if they are failing as leaders and want to become dictators. Other ethnicities and religious followers have also been targeted throughout history. Muslims were targeted during the crusades and even up to the present when Trump tried to ban them from coming here. If George W Bush had wanted to blame all Muslims for 9/11 he would have enabled a huge backlash aimed at them. Imagine if Trump had been president at that time! And there have been plenty of mass and deadly attacks on Muslims and Mosques in this country.

Christians were persecuted and killed by the Romans, starting with the judgement and cruxifiction of Jesus of Nazareth. But in that case it may have been persecution of Jews who had converted to Christianity. Religious explanations for violent actions is a morass of emotionally misdirected backlashes created by leadership. Mostly to misdirect attention away from their own failures, or to feed their greed for power.

History shows that emotional manipulation of the masses is laughably easy. We are arguably living that history right now.

It’s not about making sense.

[MineralMan]

44. Yes, small minorities make excellent scapegoats.

They can't really do anything about it, due to limited numbers.

You're right. It makes no sense and it doesn't have to to be used.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Correction. Jews are not 2% of the world population, we are .2%.

We are a little over 2% (about 2.2 to 2.4%) in the US. I may come back and add more later. Thanks for starting this thread!!

[MineralMan]

47. Thank you for correcting that. I guess I was thinking about the US.

I edited the OP to reflect your more accurate numbers. I'll watch for your future additions to the thread!

[Caliman73]

52. Antisemites believe that despite their low numbers, that Jews control...

several important parts of the economy and that while they are subhuman scum, that they somehow have had the ability to manipulate all other people into trying to subvert the natural Christian dominance of the world.


You are right, it doesn't make any sense. Hate in general makes no sense. It creates illogical stories to justify our fear and anger and to point them in the direction of a "manageable threat.

[treestar]

53. The looney idea that they are running everything

in spite of being a minority - that they control the banks and so forth. I was watching a video from TYT where Cenk interviewed David Duke, who was spouting that nonsense. This seems to be a standard opinion of nutcases everywhere.

[The Genealogist]

55. No, it makes no sense whatsover

Jewish people have been the scapegoats of choice in the western world for millennia now. The vicious, ignorant irrational hatred of a people who mostly just mind their own business and want to live in peace puzzles me as well.

[liberal N proud]

56. For the same reason it makes no sense to commit violence against any ethnicity.

Why does one group hate another?

[Hekate]

61. My late MIL was Viennese. She said it always baffled her that Jews were simultaneously accused ...

...of being Communists (i.e. against all capitalism) and being The Bankers (i.e. holding all the capital). Her ironic comment was along the lines of "Good trick on our part, eh?"

As for how and why the Jews were made into forever-bogeymen by haters, we watched it happen to Hillary Clinton before our very eyes. She -- a white Christian woman -- was turned into The Other because it was useful to somebody, and they will continue after she is cold in her grave. They did it to "Liberals" as well -- right in front of us.

How much more so the Jews, a whole people labeled as The Other some 2,000 years ago -- so useful every time some despot needs a distraction and/or needs to stir up a mob. All that's needed is to keep a subcritical mass of people simmering and a critical mass of "polite society" willing to keep using or ignoring casual slurs. There you have the poisonous brew waiting to boil over.

It seems to have nothing to do with reason and everything to do with how useful it is to have a scapegoat handy in times of stress.

I used to search for the origins and history of anti-Semitism in an effort to understand how Hitler happened. I still highly recommend this exercise to any who have not done it.

But at some point in the last decade or so I realized it is useful to someone, and started asking instead: Who does it serve?

[MineralMan]

62. I think the thing is that they are a small minority

in numbers, so they're easy to attack and can't fight back. The ideal scapegoat in that way. They also are a culture that is not well-understood, so you can lie about them. Very convenient for those looking for scapegoats.

[Hekate]

65. Yep

[Act_of_Reparation]

66. Christian antisemitism has deep roots.

The primary cause was the early Christians' decision to court favor with Rome during the Jewish revolts in the first century, but it is also related to marked lack of success the early church had in winning converts from its own parent religion. The double whammy of treason and rejection soured things a bit.

It's a fairly instructional tale. All of this shit happened two millennia ago, and the only reason it continues is because it is baked into the religion itself. Remeber: the Gospels were written contemporaneously to the degeneration of Christian-Jewish relations, and much of the bad feelings between the two is reflected in the text of the later Gospels.

[MineralMan]

67. Yes, and the assembly of the biblical canon solidified

the Roman leanings of the New Testament, preserving all of that prejudice for future generations of Christians.

[Act_of_Reparation]

68. Yep.

Modern antisemitism and biblical antisemitism share common themes, particularly the eponymous "the Jews" working in total concert to subvert Jesus and his message for worldly and decidedly avaricious goals. This isn't an accident. They sound similar because they're the same. Two thousand year old prejudices surviving because they've been codified into a religion.