Been using a new tact with Republicans. ie. Immigration.

[Glamrock]

Had a discussion with 3 blue collar dudes while smoking outside a hotel last week.

Immigration came up. I told them Republicans love illegal immigrants. It's cheap labor. At first they we're flabbergasted to hear it. I continued that they were using the issue to drive a wedge into the electorate. It's just used to win elections so they can cut taxes for the rich, I said. How's that last tax cut working out for you? What'd you get? $10-$30 a month? And now they wanna pay for it by cutting SS and Medicare? Wouldn't you rather have had no tax cut and know that shit is safe? Unsure murmers was the reply I got. As I finished my Marlboro, I hit em with this. If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they'd propose exorbitant fines and jail time on those who hire them. Problem solved. Hell, they got the majority of the Congress and the Whitehouse. They could pass that without a single Dem vote if they really wanted to stop it. That left them speechless. They were absolutely thinking about it as I walked away.

[lunatica]

1. I hope it worked

Good try! But you can’t fix stupid, but hopefully at least one of them got it.

[rampartc]

2. nope, to most of these yahoos

democrats want more immigrants to vote for democrats so they can get "free stuff."

i know that is ridiculous, but i interact with "conservatives" on other boards all the time and they are convinced that it is democrats who want "open borders" for purposes of voter fraud. no matter that most undocumented immigranrs are employed in red county agribusiness.

[Glamrock]

3. All I can say is the stunned silence I walked away from spoke volumes.

I could be wrong. Maybe it goes nowhere. Perhaps it helped not one iota. But I could see the wheels turning.

[rampartc]

4. i hope you are right

personally, i don't think we need illegal immigrants, but we need to treat everyone humanely, legal or not.

[sharedvalues]

73. Yup it works

No one will ever admit to your face that they got suckered.

But it makes them think and changes behavior.

[TexasTowelie]

12. Almost all undocumented immigrants won't show up at the polls to vote

since they fear that they could be arrested and deported. They want to either lay low or blend into the crowd rather than stand in line to be asked for identification.

[rampartc]

26. that would be my guess

[mucifer]

29. Undocumented people don't vote.

I wish they could. I have strong feelings about that. Undocumented people can encourage their relatives who have their papers to vote. That's about it. Lots of the undocumented from Mexico are really refugees from the drug cartels. But, that's not how most people in the USA see it.

[MichMan]

32. Why do you think undocumented people should have the right to vote?

I don't believe any country in the world permits that

[Iggo]

52. Other than they live here and they work here and they pay taxes here, I can't think of a reason.

I do get what you're saying, though.

[MichMan]

54. Why is working and paying taxes connected to having the right to vote ?

There are many people who don't do either of those that still have the right to vote.

[George II]

58. You're right. Early in my career I lived in New Jersey but I worked in New York.

I paid taxes in New York, but I was never able to vote in New York.

I'm all for very liberal immigration laws, but once we Democrats start advocating for the vote for non-citizens, we open ourselves to massive attacks by republicans.

[shanny]

62. "Almost all?" I bet all twelve* that have did so mistakenly thinking they could.

*I kid. A little. Maybe there were fewer. Not enough to swing an election, even in Florida in 2000:

"A 2014 comprehensive study by the Brennan Center for Justice found there were only 31 credible allegations of fraud over 1 billion votes cast. In fact, far more legal citizens have been rejected at the polls for lacking proper identification." (actually the study was completed in 2007; I think a WaPo article about it was published in 2014)

--https://campaignlegal.org/update/republicans-and-democrats-agree-there-no-widespread-voter-fraud

lemmesee. if I haven't misplaced the decimal or a zero or two, the number of credible voter fraud cases found in that study came to .0000031% of the vote.

[TexasTowelie]

67. I was hedging my statement by including the word "almost".

The moment I leave out the word is when someone will come along to point out the exception.

[shanny]

72. Ah. I hear you.

Apologies.

[AllyCat]

74. Yup. Many won't even drive to doctors

Because they might get pulled over for some real or imagined infraction and get deported.

[Kurt V.]

5. good for you.

we are the sum of our experiences . so hopefully their experience with you gives them pause.

[Glamrock]

6. I'm hoping.

And planting seeds of doubt wherever I can.

[safeinOhio]

10. Doesn't take a lot to shut them up.

Listened to a lady go on and on about trump. All I said was "he sure likes to toot his own horn". She turned around and walked away.

[treestar]

7. Or they could provide for visas

for the people who immigrate to do the jobs. If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they would treat current immigrants the way our ancestors were. They came, did the hardest and lowest paying jobs, and might have experienced bigotry, but at least not "illegality."

As right wingers, they are usually against "government interference" in business, yet for this issue, suddenly they are. Let the market take care of it. Immigrants would not come if there weren't jobs. Were there huge numbers of immigrants during the Depression? Why are they suddenly for government regulation? The citizen speaks English already, and would have the advantage. Why are illegal aliens preferable? Because they are illegal. If they weren't, they would not have an advantage. Now they do because they have no standing to complain if they are not paid minimum wage, etc. They cannot enforce worker protections.

Republicans have no intention of stopping this system. It would go away as a wage issue and would force them to provide worker protection laws to every worker.

[shanny]

64. Ironically, it was the urge to "Close the Borders!"

that resulted in so many staying...because they knew there were jobs but it became too difficult to go back and forth.

[treestar]

77. Yes - I read an article on how they would prefer to spend

half the year in Mexico (when the harvests are not being done) - if they had visas they could do that, to the supposed gladness of the right wingers.

[watoos]

8. They are all, well not all, so phony.

Back when Lou Dobbs, when he worked for another cable news network, he would rail every night against undocumented workers. His daughter had 2 undocumented workers tending her horses.

[Glamrock]

9. That's my point.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of the GOP on immigration. Again, maybe I'm missing into the wind with this, but if I can pull back the curtains on the great and terrible OZ for just a few? Maybe they change a couple minds too.

[robbob]

11. Throw in that Dump hires all kinds of illegals

to keep his golf course running at Mar a Lago...

[Glamrock]

13. Doh!

I forgot about those visas!

[KY_EnviroGuy]

14. Slap them with one last point. Those dudes probably like a little Esquire...

Suggest they read a bit about Devin Nunes's family farm in Iowa (long read, but very enjoyable):

Devin Nunes’s Family Farm Is Hiding a Politically Explosive Secret
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23471864/devin-nunes-family-farm-iowa-california/

Nation wide, that may be one of the biggest extortion rackets on earth. Repugs tell ICE to turn a blind eye to illegals so long as their employers support the GOP.

GOP = Hypocrisy-R-Us.......

[Glamrock]

17. Thanks for that!

I live out of a suitcase 4 days a week. I'll try it this week!

[KY_EnviroGuy]

18. Did that myself for far, far too many years.

And, I remember well when we smokers were forced outdoors and when flying got to be a pain in the ass.

Felt good to retire, but still sometimes miss the great sights and cultures around America. Don't miss the filthy, hot work I did and sometimes lousy food, though.

......

[Glamrock]

20. Hot work?

Electrician?

[KY_EnviroGuy]

21. Field service (electrical) engineer...

in large air pollution control systems - ESPs, scrubbers, baghouses, etc., but mainly precipitators.

"Hot" as in going in to inspect thermally hot units right after shut down and hot as in electrical control work, a few times with 4160 but mostly 480 stuff. We did run an ESP up to over 100kV one time in Pennsylvania and that was scary as hell.

Don't miss that danger either. Got hit by 120 the other day changing a light switch, just as a reminder, LOL.

[Glamrock]

23. I'm in DC electrical work.

Telecom. Completely different animal. Much safer in a -48V environment. I'll never forget the reaction I got from a Union electrician when I showed him the difference in potential from ac to dc. Make a long story short, I grabbed a hot bar in a distribution bay. As I reached for the return bar and made contact, he cowered and shielded his face like I was going to explode. LOL! He was in utter disbelief as I explained, while I had one hand on hot and one hand on return, that with 48v there's not enough voltage to overcome the resistance of my skin. Enough amperage to kill a herd of elephants, but not gonna get you. Unless you're reeeaaaaaallllllly sweaty. Still cracks me up thinking about his reaction.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

27. Yes, that probably comes from years of strict safety training.

For years - at least through the 90s and early aughts - we could freely open and work in 480V gear, but with proper permits. However, lockout/tagout has always been strict. But toward the end of my work years, the safety requirements got to be outrageous, requiring full protective FR and flash-resistant gear just to do a simple test in a cabinet.

I always have, however, appreciated the strict safety training that created a constant consciousness of caution both for electrical and mechanical work. That probably saved my life more times than I'll never know because complacency kills.

Funny you mentioned the phone line voltage. I just fixed a neighbor's phone yesterday where the cable guys had installed a cable modem with digital phone service 30 or so years ago and somehow got the line polarity reversed. My friend's Princess wall phone touchtone pad hadn't worked since then, although his wireless VTech phones worked OK. I checked it with my DVM, reversed the wires, and all was well again.

I love fixing safe, simple stuff nowadays......

[Glamrock]

28. Don't get me wrong

I'm not cavalier about electricity. The only reason I did that was because he knew nothing about -48v DC. And as a union electrician, he'd have never believed me if I told him.

But yeah, complacency is extremely dangerous. A few years back we were moving batteries from one room to another. The press-in nuts on the disconnect are machined so well you can thread in a bolt all the way up to the lock washer by hand. I was taking the leads off the disco and my insulated tools were outside. You see where this is going. Ahh fuck it. I know what I'm doing! Been doing it for years. I just have to break the bolts loose. One half or a quarter turn and I'm golden! I grabbed my Husky ratchet. Guess what, there was a bare c-tap frame/aisle ground right next to my head just out of my peripheral vision. Yeah. I touched that fucker with my ratchet and BOOM! In a blink of an eye It melted the socket and welded it to the ratchet. Scared the shit out of me. Damn near fell off the ladder! But I'm glad I did it. No one got hurt. Nothing went down. Hell, didn't even put anything in alarm. But, it was a wake up call. I'm good for at least 15 more years before I take a chance like that again. The problem with complacency is it leads to more risky behavior if you're successful cutting that corner. Glad it happened. Woke me up.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

36. Yep, as a power electrician he's scared to hell of bus bars.....

'cause he's seen the videos of those higher voltage things faulting out and killing people, so I understand his instinctive caution.

You're wise to share and describe that incident and it would make a good training example for those that follow you. Maybe even show them the welded ratchet!

BTW, my former business partner worked for Ma Bell back in the good old days and I learned a lot from him and others about the extremely high standards the Bell System and Western Electric set for all their gear (like that 40 year old phone from yesterday that still works). Can't tell you how much respect I have for those companies (and Bell Labs) and all they did for America, including our military. It's also why (showing my age) I insist on keeping my old POTS line in service, LOL.

..........

[Glamrock]

37. That's where I cut my DC

Albeit it was Lucent at the time. But my mentors where all 30 year vets that began as, Western Electric guys. Went to training at Bell labs in Naperville, IL. Trained by thee best. Good talking shop with you EnviroGuy. Height of me morning!

[KY_EnviroGuy]

39. You too, Glamrock and have a good day of rest!

Just as a parting note, in my senior year of college I turned down a job offer from Bell Labs when it was still in Jersey. This southern country boy was afraid of moving so far north and the big cities. And, I had some apprehension that I wasn't smart enough for Bell Labs (they, NASA and Texas Instruments were top dogs at that time in the 60s for graduate EEs). May well have been the biggest mistake of my life, but I'll never know!

Retirement brings with it the task of endless soul-searching, LOL.

..........

[uponit7771]

78. +1

[MissMillie]

15. only one problem

If you're trying to convince them, you're expecting them to think.

You made a great argument. Bravo.

[Glamrock]

16. Oh they were definitely thinking about it as I walked away.

No doubt about that. Whether it changed a mind or not is the question. But they were definitely putting 2+2 together. Maybe they came up with eleventy-two. But I'm trying.

[gordianot]

19. I have used this argument for some time.

My line goes like this: If you hire someone without a green card then you are the criminal. Carry it further if you hire someone without a green card card then you should be held responsible for their family for life. All this really does is shut them up they are incapable of thinking beyond a few talking points.

[MichMan]

34. Sounds good in theory, but there are unintended consequences

1) That would require anyone currently without a green card to be unemployable, including many who have been here for decades and have raised families etc. That would force them all back to their countries of origin which would probably please many of the RW

2) There are some that have used stolen or forged documents to obtain employment. If you are going to hold employers responsible for hiring, you also need to arrest and charge those who used fake documents felonies for identify theft

3) Many undocumented workers are paid under the table making both them and those who employ them guilty of evading taxes as well as cheating the state of workers comp and unemployment taxes. Those situations are nearly impossible to stop and makes it virtually impossible for those employers who are following the rules to compete. This can be prevalent in things like roofing, drywall, landscaping and other construction businesses.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

41. Few Americans are aware of the scope of this issue....

or the disastrous results if that system collapses. This practice is also prevalent in heavy industry, which I witnessed in my years in field service.

And now, the criminal mob run by Trump is using threats of visits by ICE to bribe companies to support the GOP.

It's a huge elephant in our room hiding in the shadows of all of America.....

[gordianot]

56. I am still hung up on the idea allowing immigration.

Definitely with some protections, however, I do note my ancestors came without asking anyone including my Native American ancestors. Trump has weaponized citizenship into basically a protection racket for a price.

I never say anything to a Republican or conservative with the hope to endorse basic humanity.

[Ilsa]

22. I guess they will claim

Obama was the one who overturned fining employers who hire undocumented workers. I believe it was actually Reagan.

[Glamrock]

24. Haven't encountered that argument yet....

But thanks for the ammo!

[mtnsnake]

25. Good job! Many Republican voters simply don't know the facts & need to be educated.

[malaise]

30. Great post

[Glamrock]

31. Tanks mama!

[lunasun]

33. If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they'd propose exorbitant fines and jail .....

I always thought this too but a lot of the time the people doing this in a community they know are the rich people sitting next to them in church or at a club that they wanna be like wish they could live like, so they do not turn on them and blame the illegal workers they hire instead. They will distort the whole picture or tear off a large corner of the puzzle
They do not disapprove of how the owners get the money or that they add to US unemployment or lower wages but they do admire their wealth and what it buys and those employers being part of a community are untouchable
Poor outsider people are a go to for disapproval anyway even more when not citizens and lured here by a job. Also some of the jobs they are showing recently that even when USunemployed they can not do the same amount because of physical requirements even at a higher wage
I assume much of the work is at an inhumane pace along with the low pay to bring that rich family some more bucks that those illegal immigrant hating folks admire
Plus that's if they don't rip them off completely and not payout. You would think if anything the concern would be for the misuse of workers and that it could triclkle to all worker's rights. But I suspect with their issues they never see past what the worker looks like or owns.
They will not turn on their fellows when there is an easy scapegoat for where ever their anger stems from . I don't think it's all job loss I think some is just growing whipped up racism or xenophobia although there was alway this block of citizens fixated on it but they will never agree to owners going to jail IMO
Hell the way it is going might even at some point decide the people hiring are victims of the illegal immigrants !
$$$
Keep talking at smoke breaks. If one ear opens it is a good thing they can talk to someone else

[Glamrock]

35. Nice righteous rant Luna!

Now where is that worship emoji?

[KY_EnviroGuy]

44. A good simple title for your beautiful rant would be...

The Prosperity Gospel Defined.

.........

[Amishman]

38. Outdated argument, Republicans hate all unskilled immigrants now because of automation

The flip on their attitude towards immigration coincides with the rise in automation of unskilled jobs.

They expect to be able to replace the 'peasantry' with robots and AI scripts.

[Glamrock]

40. True that!

But I'm not talking to politicians. I'm talking to blue collar workers. That argument is far from outdated with them.

[llmart]

66. The farms in my rural area of Michigan...

do not use robots to pick their crops. I'm quite sure that goes for the ones in California and Florida too.

[Amishman]

75. Not yet, give it 5-10 years

They have a plan, and the lower class doesn't have a place in it

Cutting the supply ahead of time even fits in a twisted way. Cause a labor crunch now, have right wing politicians put subsidies in place for equipment and fund research to mitigate the labor crunch, have taxpayer money repay the R&D costs and cover much of the expense of deploying automation... mega profit.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/08/wave-of-agriculture-robotics-holds-potential-to-ease-farm-labor-crunch.html

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/07/world/automated-farm-harvest-england/index.html

[Aristus]

42. Well done!

[Glamrock]

46. Grassy ass brother Aristus.

[Achilleaze]

43. !

[PatrickforO]

45. Well done! This is why I often post on neutral or even right wing sites, and why

I have conversations like this with people. Of those three blue collar guys, maybe one will change his vote this time around, maybe not.

But all of them will think, and once you know, there's no going back. They will start to spot hypocrisy, and maybe then either give up voting altogether in disgust, or perhaps become Democrats.

Oh, and one last thing - just thought I'd mention this. Polls I've seen show only 26-28% of millennials plan to vote. You know why? Most don't feel either Republicans or Dems will do anything for them. I've had many, many conversations with millennials - we all know their problems - high student loan debt, being priced out of housing markets, low paying jobs and other things have made it real hard for this whole generation to get on its feet.

Right now, the Republicans are SO BAD that the Dems look like peaches and cream, but when we get in power, we'd better do some stuff to take care of our children and grandchildren, you know? Like Warren has introduced the Responsible Capitalism Act, which simply expands the fiduciary responsibility of CEOs in publicly held companies beyond shareholder earnings to encompass worker and consumer welfare, and environmental impact. Stuff like that will solve so many problems.

But we're going to, within the next decade, have to re-think our whole social and economic organization. I mean, think about it - the real elephant in this room is the national debt. No one really is talking about it. A few tea party people tried a few years ago, but they were co-opted by the Kochs and most of them were kind of dumb anyway.

The bankers love it, though, because they've created a society of scarcity where more and more money is being routed into fewer and fewer hands at our expense, and they get to skim off the top of everything.

Unfortunately, that isn't sustainable. It's going to fall like a giant house of cards.

No bankers want us to go there, and there will be those on this site who disagree with me, but we are going to have to eventually repeal the Federal Reserve Act, and begin coining our own money, as it says in Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution. Like Lincoln did with the greenbacks during the Civil War.

We need to think differently - you pull a dollar out of your pocket and realize it is only a dollar because we all agree that is so. This is called fiat currency. Nothing backing it except the full faith and credit of the United States. So, if OUR faith and credit is backing these dollars, and if the national debt is money we owe to ourselves, then why are we paying it back with interest to bankers and foreign investors? We could get rid of that whole problem by coining our own money.

Of course, some say that Executive Order 11110, issued by JFK on June 3, 1963 is actually one of the things that got him killed. Whether or not that is true, the bankers will fight back hard. They will.

In fact, when I bring this up, some accuse me of wearing a tinfoil hat, and tell me that if we start coining our own money, we will have horrible inflation. That isn't really true, though. People who say that tend to have an interest in banking and in the banking system.

Public banking may be in large part, a solution for us. That, and Warren's 'Responsible Capitalism Act.'

[Glamrock]

47. I'm down.

There are a few industries that I think should be publicly owned. Banking is one. Medical insurance is another.

[CrispyQ]

48. This:

If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they'd propose exorbitant fines and jail time on those who hire them. Problem solved. Hell, they got the majority of the Congress and the Whitehouse. They could pass that without a single Dem vote if they really wanted to stop it.

I would love to hear every democrat who has a microphone in front of them say this.

Good work!

[MichMan]

50. Fines and jail time on employers would also create poverty and homelessness for undocumented workers

Is that really what you want?

Anyone without a valid green card would become unemployable and either forced to return to their native country or become homeless and unable to feed their families.

Even if they had lived and worked in this country for many years and had established roots and established families here in the US? Millions of undocumented immigrants came here to work and establish a better life and we should take that all away from them ?

Is that what our politicians should be constantly advocating?

[shanny]

71. LOL. You don't think the Rs would actually DO that, do you?

Cut their own cheap-labor loving throats? Of course they won't, and neither will we. But if it gets some people thinking, and seeing their sanctimonious hypocrisy and how they have exploited it for power, it might open their eyes. This divide-and-conquer the working classes has been going for since forever, in this country and elsewhere. It is time to put a stake in its heart.

[CrispyQ]

80. Sure. Let's let the right continue to dominate the narrative on this issue.

It's worked so well for us.

Red America needs to hear that it's the corporations that benefit by pitting middle class America against desperate immigrants. I would offer current workers green cards with a path to citizenship & raise the minimum wage. Make the corporations serve the people, not the other way around. But that will never happen as long as the right dominates the narrative with their "illegal aliens" are stealing American jobs. We are up against 30+ years of right wing propaganda & the left still does nothing to counter hate radio & Fox.

[JudyM]

49. Great approach to open their minds. Nice going!

[elleng]

51. Good work, Glam!

[LuvLoogie]

53. You rock, Glamrock.

[Glamrock]

57. I have to, it's in the name....

But, thanks!

[enid602]

55. Card

If they were serious about controlling undocumented immigration, they would institute a national identity card. Very few other countries don’t have one.

[keithbvadu2]

59. Republican illegal alien Christian Rivera killed Mollie Tibbets.

Republican illegal alien Christian Rivera killed Mollie Tibbets.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100211032272

Employed by prominent GOP family who conducted minimal verification so as not to find too much against him.

[IronLionZion]

60. There was a time when blue collar dudes were loyal Dems

We won't reach all of them. But we can plant these doubts in their minds, get them to question what they've been told by the GOP, and we can flip enough of them to make a difference in some closely competitive districts.

[bora13]

61. card-carrying truth evangelist

nice.

I would go a step further and carry around some large cue-cards (or flash-cards, 'member them?)
with those talking points and more. The extra visual might help it sink in.

[link:

|]

[cstanleytech]

63. Exactly, with the majority that they have had for years they could have easily proposed

to fix the issue by going after the ones hiring people that are here illegally but they never have even tried to do that so its clear they really do not care about illegal immigrants other than as a political football.

[Rebl2]

65. I don't

believe Republicans want to fix the immigration situation. They want to use it like they do abortion, as an issue to run on and to keep running on for many years to come to rile up their base.

[reACTIONary]

68. This is exactly right,,

.,,, the reason economic migrants are here is because we pay them. If we stop paying them, they have no reason to come.

[NeverTrumpDemocrat]

69. Please, that's a new TACK - not a new "TACT" ---

So many people are beginning to make that mistake.

A "tack" in this case would mean a change in direction or a new direction. It comes from sailing.

People have developed a misapprehension that "tact" is somehow short for "tactic" which it is not.

"Tact" is a word -- it means politeness, sensitivity and thoughtfulness. That's not what you meant. I may not be displaying much tact myself by calling you out on this, sorry!

[marybourg]

76. Thank you for saving me the effort.

[mr_lebowski]

79. And while we're getting pet peeves out the way, the word is JIBE, not JIVE lol (nt)

[BadGimp]

70. AWESOME!!

[TEB]

81. It amazes me

How any working blue collar could vote repug

[Glamrock]

82. Me too brother, me too.

They always bitch about NAFTA. But not a one of em knows it was started under Bush. Not a one of em knows a majority of Republicans voted for it. And not a one of em knows a majority of Democrats voted against it. And when you tell em? Might as well be barking at the moon. Clinton signed it so it's the Dems fault.