Where do you stand on homeschooling?

[The Straight Story]

My daughter is homeschooled. My sons were not. I have been on both sides of the fence and found the good and bad in both (as far as good and bad relates my own personal situation).

Can't afford private and the public schools here are awful. Personally, I like being able to make a choice in this and many other things when it comes to my family, our bodies, our education.

94 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Make it illegal, remove choice
	8 (9%)
	Ensure it stays legal and parents have a choice
	47 (50%)
	Only some parents should be allowed to do it
	7 (7%)
	I know some people who do it poorly, therefore others might too - ban it
	1 (1%)
	Kids miss out on all the social interactions (dances, bullies, drugs, clubs)
	0 (0%)
	It is not a choice I would make but think others should be able to make their own choice
	12 (13%)
	Religious people do it to brainwash kids
	18 (19%)
	Other, not listed
	1 (1%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Kalidurga]

1. I think it is a great idea that could possibly go very wrong...

I don't think text books that wouldn't be allowed in a public school should be allowed for homeschooling ie creation science books. Other than that. I think it is up to the parents if they have the time energy and money to do it.

[lilly ludebummer]

76. *Sigh*

So you are so puffed up you think the intricacies of the Universe happened willy-nilly?

Psst! Science and Gawd are not mutally exclusive!

[SoDesuKa]

111. Welcome to DU

Yes, as a matter of fact I do think the universe happened willy-nilly. Got another hypothesis?

Psst! Enjoy your stay.

[the nite has 1K eyez]

142. Boy, that was one hell of a Big Bang!

The tides, the seasons, the composition of a public hair...

[SoDesuKa]

146. Cosmic Mysteries

Cosmic mysteries remain mysterious even if you call them the handiwork of some lord-in-the-sky. I'll say this much for him, he's sure got you dazzled!

Psst. Enjoy your continued stay.

[inner lite]

175. Thanks. I plan on staying.

Yes, I am dazzled by the Divine!

[SoDesuKa]

186. Dazzled

I think you're just dazzled, period.

[renie408]

190. Don't let them bother you.

There is nothing in scientific theory that excludes God and vice versa.

Personally, without excluding the possibility of some non-sentient power/connection/force that we currently do not have the means to detect, I am an atheist. I do not believe in the existence of a sentient 'God'. Period. That is the technical definition of atheism, so therefore that's what I am.

I believe that everybody has to get through life the best way they can. If dazzled works for you, good.

Welcome to the DU.

[lob1]

151. The big bang plus 4.5 billion years.

[inner lite]

176. What caused the Big Bang?

And Who created that Substance or Energy to explode what?

[renie408]

191. Do we really want to do this?

And do it here? Can we just agree that people have different beliefs on the origins of life and the universe and leave it at that?

This is just going to get weird.

[jmowreader]

2. There are good and bad reasons to homeschool

Good reason: the local school system is crap and the area is full of Republicans who are actively trying to make it fail

Bad reason: the local school system won't teach kids that Christianity is the only true religion, Jesus rode a dinosaur to church and pi is three.

[mzteris]

155. Here's the thing . . .

You have to support the right to homeschool, whether or not you agree with what they are teaching.

If you think liberals hsing is a good thing, you can't nitpick and say only liberals can hs and conservative fundies can't (as much as you may like to...).

Rights for one pov is righs for all pov's. That is what his country is about, isn't it?

[jberryhill]

3. What anyone else thinks is irrelevant

States can and do have various laws and regulations on the subject. They are either working or they are not, for their intended purposes, but that's up to the states.

[dimbear]

4. The parents need to be a little bit educated themselves.

There ought to be some sort of minimum (sub)standard set.

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. For the most part I think it is a bad idea.

I think that yes, parents should have the choice; however I also think that it should be subject to certain stipulations (such as following the same curriculum taught in public and accredited private schools). When we're talking about secondary level education (high school), I rather think that a majority of parents are not properly fit to teach their children, because they have no genuine understanding of many of the subjects and are probably going to do a much worse job trying to teach everything or let them learn on their own than actual teachers with education and training in those particular subjects. And depriving children of opportunities for proper socialisation is potentially unhealthy.

[Karia]

18. I agree

There should be some sort of accreditation process.

I am aware of at least one homeschooling group in our area that tries to challenge kids academically. They hire tutors for math & languages, some of the teenagers are taking community college courses, and the kids take standardized tests periodically to confirm that they are keeping up with peers. However, I think these people are the exception.

Women who have escaped the "patriarchy" movement are providing powerful narratives about the appalling homeschooling practices in that community. Children are "schooled" little, and only in narrow, rigidly-defined areas. For example, girls are mainly just taught how to cook, sew, clean, and care for children.
I personally know a young man who was home-schooled by very conservative Christians and never permitted to read anything but the Bible. When I met him, he was 20 and had just learned for the first time of the solar system's existence.

[obamanut2012]

38. this

[hifiguy]

48. Well said. nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. socialization canard again???

children can be socialized without requiring them to be packed in a room with 30 of their peers...and in many cases BETTER socialized. i think using an APPROVED curriculum is fine...but not necessarily the exact same one the students in the public schools are using. if that were the case my daughters would not be learning a TON of stuff they are getting at home.

sP

[LadyHawkAZ]

185. Not necessarily exactly the same

but certainly minimum required standards in all subjects and periodic state testing to ensure that they are being learned. I don't think the poster meant that they should learn no more than their peers and at the same slow speed.

[Egalitarian Thug]

6. Societally a very bad idea, but so are most attempts at prohibition. Socialization and

cultural commonality are essential to maintain community. We are already witness to the balkanization process advancing in this nation, and homeschooling is no small part of that.

I think the benefits of it cannot compare with the liabilities.

[HiPointDem]

9. +1.

[Waltons_Mtn]

27. They claim that they get better socialization and culture from going to church.

School socialization is not needed.

[Bluerthanblue]

47. there is alot to be said AGAINST school socialization-

these days especially.

But that isn't the GOAL of a public school education. People learn how to be in the world first and foremost in their family. Teachers are hired and trained to teach students academics. They are tasked with an impossible responsibility these days, and get far too little support or positive input from parents whose lives are over scheduled and full of stress.

Your stereotyping of home schoolers is as offensive as some home schoolers characterizations of public schools. It isn't helpful to anyone.

[Egalitarian Thug]

80. And some of them (way too many of them) claim that dinosaurs were walking around a couple thousand

years ago, slavery wasn't so bad, and we never went to the moon. BS is always BS no matter how you choose to sniff it.

The idea that an ignoramus can teach their kids is so backward it defies the very idea of human intelligence.

[avebury]

122. We hired a young guy who was home schooled before college.

He was a smart young man but needed a lot of work on his people skills. I attributed a lot of it to living in a bubble and not knowing how to deal with people who were not from the same religious mind set.

[gkhouston]

7. I thought about it, but I don't look good in orange jumpsuits. n/t

[wickerwoman]

8. Yes, but it needs to be held to the same standards as other kinds of schooling

and if kids are falling massively behind, they should be mainstreamed again.

Kids have a right to a real education that will enable them to do something with their lives besides minimum wage unskilled work or getting married and having a gazillion babies. The problem with homeschooling in some cases is that it becomes a front for using your daughters to raise their younger siblings or your sons for unpaid farm work. Or the parents may be well intentioned but poorly equipped and school becomes an endless series of "field trips" that happen to fit around mom and dad's work schedule rather than what is best for the kids.

The one place I think standardised testing is appropriate is in ensuring that kids in non-traditional school environments are still getting the basics they need for later success.

[Freddie]

15. Yes, only if regulated

To ensure that the children are learning the same subjects as required by public schools in the state.
Generally think its not a good idea--kids need the social skills that come from being with other kids (who may be from a different background) and dealing with non-parental adults. How many hundreds of years have kids been going to school? Do home-schooled kids have trouble adapting to college? Would like to see studies on that.
Also home-schooling requires a stay-home parent, normally Mom. It's a convenient way of making sure that Mom stays home in the "traditional" family.

[WolverineDG]

127. Actually, not many

the idea that education should be available to all AND free is only as old as this country, & even then, wasn't widely practiced until the passage of child-labor laws. Most kids prior to the last century were educated at home. Even if there was a school nearby, most boys only attended school in the winter when there was little to do on the farm. Only girls & young kids attended classes in the fall & spring. Most of the learning was still done at home.

I think too much emphasis is put on "socialization." School is not a place to hang out with friends & party all day.

[Karia]

152. I think we have different definitions of "socialization"

My child goes to an urban school where she is being "socialized" for the diverse society in which we live. Her friends are all from very different racial, ethnic, and economic backgrounds. School brought these kids together. School gave them the opportunities & skills to find commonalities and bridge differences.

[WinniSkipper]

40. Would public school students have to pass the same test?

I would have no issue with the requirement if that is the case

[wickerwoman]

118. They already do have to pass millions of tests.

And at least when kids are going to school it's easier to monitor them for signs of abuse or neglect. The other issue I have with unmonitored homeschooling is that it pushes at-risk kids off the radar of social services.

[WinniSkipper]

138. That wasn't the question

Would they have to pass THE SAME test as regular HS students to advance, show their competency? I have no issue with it if they do. If everyone has to pass the same "basic skills" test to advance - that's fair

What makes you think at risk kids are flocking to home schooling?

[wickerwoman]

145. That's what I mean by

"held to the same standards of other kinds of schooling." Yes. The same test(s).

I don't think at risk kids are flocking to home schooling. I'm saying home schooling should be monitored because one way abusive parents hide their abuse is by yanking their kids out of the public school system where teachers have a duty to report.

In some states, nothing is done to monitor homes where kids don't attend school. My point is that this puts at risk kids even more at risk.

[jeff47]

10. If those are the "fair" answers you could come up with, I'm not sure you're qualified. (nt)

[Raine]

11. I'm all for liberals homeschooling their children. Liberals are smart enough to do it and that way

their children won't be indoctrinated and brainwashed into being nothing but fodder to be used by the greedy in this country.

[aquart]

12. Yah. That's it's own kind of brainwashing.

Trying to control all access to your children so they'll think exactly like you.

Leaving them completely unable to cope with a world in which all access isn't controlled.

Makes my skin crawl.

[loli phabay]

17. yup its kinda creepy no matter what side wants to turn out little clones.

[cali]

13. I think homeschooled kids should have to pass yearly tests

particularly in science and math.

[Tabasco_Dave]

14. I think online school is better than home school

My girlfriend's niece was getting bullied at school and she was going to drop out. Her enrolled her in online school and she's happy and has a B average now. She would never go back to regular school. I wish i had it when i was her age.

[ag_dude]

128. Most home schoolers I've seen

use online courses extensively today.

[loli phabay]

16. parents choice, whether we like it or not. People choose to homeschool for so many reasons.

[Skidmore]

19. I think it should be an option for parents who are able to meet some

sort of standard assessment of their knowledge base. Not everyone should home school. I have a brilliant niece who quit her career to homeschool her child using the Montessori method. This child is autistic but functions at a high level. She also has problems in classroom settings where she is easily overloaded with information. The progress she has made is remarkable. Academically she performs well above her age group. My niece is well equipped to handle this.

[exboyfil]

20. Children should reach a certain level of performance on the

annual assessment tests. Other than that no other restrictions. Iowa does a pretty good job with Homeschooling in my opinion. At the end of the day parental rights trump other considerations. Homeschooling as a choice keep local school districts honest. Our local school district is far more willing to work with parents who want to structure their children's education in unique ways. For example I homeschooled my younger daughter in Science, Social Studies and English in 7th and 8th grade. I think my decision and my reasons for doing it prompted some self examination by the local school (actually the curriculum adjusted to respond to some of my objections). I could only do this because my older daughter went through the classes and gained nothing from the experience.

A discussion my daughter overheard at the local high school. A science teacher was resentful that so many students were accelerating in science in middle school requiring additional staffing for a traditionally 10th grade class. Her contention was that these students should be prevented from doing this. She also resented that many children were taking college classes starting in 11th grade and avoiding the public school offerings. She wanted these processes stopped (she really has no say). Our high school has not kept up with the best latest model of college level classes in High School (combined dual enroll with college with option to take AP test). Because of how the flagship university handles AP credit, it becomes a waste of time pursuing it in most cases. I am paying for college classes to save my daughter time and effort. She will not be taking English, Social Studies, Math, or Science at the high school in 11th or 12th grade.

[2pooped2pop]

21. In the end, they will all be home schooled

I believe the voucher program is meant to dismantle the public schools. I think they want all the kids at home on computers with purchased supplies from some fucking republican. You just pay them for the lesson materials. You do the work. Public schools will be closed.

They don't want to have to pay taxes to teach the poor and middle class. Especially since they plan to put as many of them as possible in their republican bought prisons. Why should they pay for low income kids to attend a school when they intend for them to end up in prison and probably provide them with free slave labor?

That's what I think is planned and will be happening.

As far as homeschooling itself- I think it takes a special person to be able to do a good job and keep the kids on it. Unfortunately, I don't think the total populace is up to the task and the education of the lower classes will fall into near third world levels in the end.

Those who are successful at homeschooling are to be commended. The rest of us would not be successful.

[JoePhilly]

23. The goal of vouchers is to force your kids into Christian private schools or onto the streets.

[2pooped2pop]

24. yes

pay the republicans directly or no school for you.

My grandson's school is not using text books but IPads now. Jr. High. Starting in grade school next year. It's only a short hop, skip, and jump to stay at home, do your own schooling.

Like I said, I don't think most parents are up to the task of educating our kids.

[whathehell]

32. What will they do with all the parents who have to stop working to do this?

It's mostly women who do this, and most working women are

working because one paycheck will not cut it for most families anymore, unfortunately.

I was raised in a blue collar family in the fities/sixties where my mother, married

to a union tradesman, could actually afford to be a "stay at home mom".

Those days, which rethugs like to point out as the "good old family values days",

were also, though they'd rather you not notice, the days when unions were strong

and paid LIVING wages....I am happy that my sister and I "caught a break" by

being born at the "right" time in America, and feel angry and betrayed for those others

at the how it's been going WAY downhill ever since...When Hillary Clinton said

that a second term of Dubya would result in our "not recognizing this country", she spoke

for many of us, although in truth, it has been going down since Reagan.

[2pooped2pop]

33. they don't care about working women

they are wanting to go back to the days when women stayed at home. The rich will not have any problems and they don't care about the rest of us.

[whathehell]

94. Maybe they don't, but families do.

so it won't just be a case of not carrying about women,

which we know they don't anyway.

[indie9197]

108. Since you brought up vouchers...

If the government spends 10-15k/ year to educate our children it seems like they could use some competition. I would have loved to have a voucher in that amount to choose what school my kids went to. I think we could be a little more creative in how we educate and homeschooling could certainly be a good option.

[2pooped2pop]

134. the vouchers are just taking money away from the

public school system. Many of the voucher schools fail, then the kids are sent to public schools but the money the school should have gotten for them is already gone.

I'm not a real big supporter of the public school in some ways, but this will eventually cause them to close imo, leaving no school for the majority of low and middle income kids.

Private schools should be paid for by private accts. THat's just how I see it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Every parent to some extent should "home school" at least on a supplementary basis

Schools can never give your child the breadth of experience and education that they should have. Parental involvement in their children's education is a primary driver for success.

When did a school ever take you child to a demonstration?
Take them to a foreign country?
Take them to a polling place?
Take them to help feed the hungry?
Take them to help build a house for Habitat for Humanity?
Take them to church? (if you lean that way)
Teach/discuss with them any controversial moral perspective?

People full time home school for any number of reasons, some good, some bad. However all parents need participate and fill in what the school does not provide.

[blueamy66]

149. My Catholic education

let us have time off to go to demonstrations....hell, my Religion teacher took 4 of us to one.

We didn't go to a foreign country, but we did study their cultures and went on retreats up in the mountains that were very, very awesome. Can I get some stats on how many home schooled kids get to go on trips to foreign nations. Thx.

We were taken to a polling place my Sr. year.

We spent time at food banks and free lunch places, volunteering.

Okay, I never built a house for a poor person. Can you show me some stats on how many home schooled kids have done so?

We went to Church twice a week.

We were taught and discussed controversial issues daily in our Religion and Debate classes.

I'm guessing that most home schooled, conservative Christian kids haven't done any of the above shit.

Home schooling leaves much to be desired, IMHO.

My father worked 2 jobs and my Mother one to send me to 13 years of Catholic school. I will be forever grateful.

[geardaddy]

199. +1000

[TwilightGardener]

25. Wouldn't be my choice. I think REAL school is a necessary experience for kids. I am also not a

teacher--but even if I was, I'd still send my kids off to school.

[liberal N proud]

26. Parents who home school should be required to meet the same accreditation as public schools

[abelenkpe]

30. My mom is a high school drop out who home schooled my sisters kids

She doesn't believe in evolution, or climate change and gives them lessons while reading Free Republic. Now her little charges: age 9 and 16 send me the same forwarded racist conspiracy theory BS she does. Charming.

[obamanut2012]

39. 100% agree

[Atman]

125. +100

[ejpoeta]

28. I have considered homeschooling my oldest because she

was having so many problems at school with other kids. I asked her if she wanted it and she said no. All the troubles she was having at school and she still wanted to go. She has had some boys bullying her over the years. She says things have gotten better.

I want to have that choice. I think parents should be able to decide that.

[exboyfil]

84. Spot on

I was bullied mercilessly from 7th-9th grade. I told my kids from an early age that we have options, and I would never let that happen to them. I have Homeschooled some subjects, and my younger daughter is sitting on the fence about going nearly full-time Homeschool. She had a rough year in 7th grade because of the bullying, but it got better in 8th grade. I almost signed on for an online academy for 9th, but it would have required her to drop Band. She also drew the best teaching lineup she could get for 9th grade so she will start out in the public school full time.

The situation is now flipped with my older daughter. She will be doing her core four classes as college classes instead of in the High School in 11th and 12th grade. The AP credit does not apply very well to the college she has selected, but community college credit does apply very well.

[phantom power]

29. I think the increasing popularity of home schooling has something in common with guns...

The increase in popularity of home schooling and the increased need people feel for carrying guns around both stem from what I see as a gradual loss of faith in the public sphere. In the case of home schooling it is a loss of faith in public schools, and in the case of guns for self defense it is a loss of faith in the public police and justice system.

At the end of the day, I believe that both home schooling and guns are and ought to be legal. But fewer people used to feel the need for either. And I see their recent popularity as a symptom of something disfunctional in our society and relationship to our own govt.

[Sedona]

31. I was NOT qualified to home school my kids

I would hope people who do are. Sadly, most are not. Yes, many do it to brainwash their children.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. did you come to this understanding after attempting it?

or was it a factor in your choosing not to?

[Sedona]

105. I've seen friends and neighbors smarter than me

fail miserably at it.

[southernyankeebelle]

34. Well I don't want the schools braining washing my kids to right wing talking points rewriting

history that we know is wrong. So education at home would be fine. But hopefully if we have problems we could get the schools help in some subjects like math.

[tallahasseedem]

35. I voted for

Religious parents do it to brainwash their children. I know, I know...there are many legitimate families out there that home school, but this is my experience with it.

[barbtries]

66. you weren't the only one.

it was the one response offered that i definitely believe even though it does not describe all home schoolers of course.

[Populist_Prole]

90. My observation as well

I can think of several good reasons for homeschooling,provided it meets academic standards. My own observation is that all the people I know of that homeschool their children do so strictly for religious reasons.

[NightWatcher]

36. Will be homeschooling my 16 month old when the time comes

[gopiscrap]

37. Fuck home schooling

the only home schoolers I know are social misfits or religious psycho's

[ProdigalJunkMail]

52. said by someone who only knows religious homeschoolers

there are loads of other reasons to homeschool...but with your attitude of 'fuck homeschooling' i would wager you aren't interested and wouldn't learn if you feigned interest.

sP

[Marymarg]

75. It depends...

But don't you make the case for home schooling if it keeps the religious psychos and social misfits away from the mainstream?

[Butterbean]

100. Huh. The only home schoolers I know are

liberals. In fact, I don't know ANY religious home schoolers. All the home schoolers I know fall into the "hippie/granola/earth mother" camp, and do stuff like have lotus home births, eat all organic, and yes, home school (or unschool...that's another really popular one in the hardcore granola circles I run in) their kids. They are the farthest thing from right wing religious "fundies" you can get.

One of my close special needs mom friends does it because her middle child is medically fragile and has a complex medical condition that involves a feeding tube and other equipment that she just flat out doesn't trust the public school system to handle properly. Quite frankly, I don't blame her one little bit.

[mzteris]

157. Sorry for your limited

Scope and experience.

It is not the norm

[Bluerthanblue]

41. I home schooled one of my children right through high school

he was hired at the first job he applied for and has been employed at the same place for ten years.

My youngest child just graduated from our public high school, and was never home schooled.

There are home schoolers whose education is less than it should be, but there are also many kids who don't receive the education they need within the public school system.

There will always be the need for a good public school system, because not everyone is able to home school or chooses to do so. The goal is to help a child learn and grow in an environment which meets their needs and helps them discover their passion and direction for their future.

For some that will be outside "traditional" public school- and that should be a viable option.

[Le Taz Hot]

42. If I had children today

I would home school them. My husband works in education as have I and I've done lots of curriculum and classroom audits. I see the abysmal dumbed-down crap they call "education." Added to that the junk food they feed children. No more home-cooked meals in the cafeteria. Most of the new schools are built without actual kitchens. Just rows of industrial microwaves so they can feed them pizza and chicken nuggets. And these are meals planned out by so-called "nutritionists."

I know the fundies use it to indoctrinate their children but I believe there are just as many parents concerned about the lack of quality education that they make the decision to home school purely for academic purposes.

[blueamy66]

181. Why not send them to a private school and pack a lunch?

Kids don't HAVE to eat in the cafeteria.

We didn't even have one for the first 2 years of my HS experience.....school was still being built. Turkey or ham samich on wheat and carrot sticks and fruit and juice box....easy.

Find a school whose values you can embrace.

[Le Taz Hot]

187. Because in this economy

most people can't afford private school. (I can't believe I just had to make this point in DU.)

"Packing a lunch" is not the answer to junk food in school. Pressuring taxpayer-funded schools to offer nutritionally-sound food is. Not only is it good for growing bodies, it teaches the children what healthy eating looks like. One more thing, many kids are on free school lunch programs because their parents can't/won't prepare their lunches. So, in your scenario, either they go hungry or have to eat high-sodium, high-cholesterol, heavily-preserved, pre-packaged shit with virtually no nutritional value.

[blueamy66]

188. I have to disagree.

Pack a freaking lunch.

Many kids are on free lunch programs because their parents WON'T pack a lunch? That is my problem? Really? Really? WTF?

wheat bread = $.99 for an entire loaf!
ham - $2.99 for a package....20 slices...at least 8 lunches
carrots - $.99 for a bag...oh wait, you may have to peel and cut them, oh my
mayo = can't break down the pennies
sun chips = can't break down those pennies either
juice box = $.66 each
fruit = way cheap.....go to Bountiful Baskets.....just got a bunch of grapes for 99 cents

By the way, I am eating some carrot sticks right now.....paid $.99 for the bag, came home, washed them, peeled them and cut them......it was tough, but I managed.....a little low fat ranch dip, and I am happy

get a grip and take responsibility for your offspring....if you can't feed them properly, don't have them! And quit buying shit with your EBT cards.

[dmallind]

44. Fine - as long as rigorously investigated and found to be equal or better than public option

In all areas of the curriculum (including biology and sex-ed).

Anything else is irrevocably, for life, retarding the kids' personal, intellectual, social and economic opportunity.

[riderinthestorm]

45. I know several homeschooled kids and they're all super-religious families who are into brainwashing

the kids. My farrier actually told me he home-schooled his kids because they "teach the Devil" in public school.

Honestly, I think if families are going to home-school they should pass standardized tests to ensure the kids are actually learning with a real curriculum. Every parent should be doing extra "work" daily with their kids imho. If you have an excellent school system then your extra work is icing on the cake. If you have a crappy school system then you're ensuring your kids are getting the fundamentals.

We've always had extra math tutoring, music lessons, we read together (no teevee), I take them out of school for field trips to concerts, art shows, lectures, demonstrations - none of these "extras" cost money but they provide the kids with "the rest" of their academic curriculum in order to make a well balanced student.

[mzteris]

158. And I know hundreds plus

Who aren't.

[riderinthestorm]

173. You just ignored the entire body/rest of my post? How friendly of you...

I really wasn't being adversarial....


So I haven't met a home schooler who isn't a religious fundy. You have.

My larger point in the REST of my post was that some kind of standards should be required so we know the kids are getting at least a basic education instead of "bible" school every day.

I know my farrier's kids the best so I'll use them as my example - they have not had any math past learning their times tables. The two sons are incapable of even doing basic bookkeeping for their own farrier work (their mom, my farrier's wife does it for them). They never had a science lesson or experiment or foreign language lesson. They firmly believe in creationism. The daughter is a SAHM whose homeschooling her own 6 kids now.... She's only 24 years old and loves the Quiverfull movement.

I love the theories on the freedom and flexibility of home-schooling. I've already said I don't consider ANY public school education complete and do a lot of work on my own with my kids. I just believe that the potential for educational abuse is too great and some standards should be implemented. I hate the whole "No Child Left Behind" acronym but I like the ideal of making sure all of America's kids have mastery over basic educational concepts before they head out into the great wide world.

[Odin2005]

46. I wish I had been homeschooled.

School was HELL.

The whole "socialization" argument is BS, as if kids did not socialize after school. In reality it's code for indoctrinating kids into good little corporate drones.

[Shrek]

51. +1

We homeschooled my son, an only child, and he's doing fine.

College junior, honors student, enjoys extracurricular functions, gets along well with his dorm mates. The preoccupation with socialization is utter nonsense.

[laundry_queen]

78. +++ a million

I'm lucky in that all 4 of my kids are totally comfortable in public school (plus here in Canada where I am there is a pretty darn good system) but I was always (and still am) prepared to homeschool them if need be.

[Jennicut]

98. Some people don't get that.

For those of us that were incredibly shy or socially awkward, it was a daily horrible hell. I had to be pushed by my parents to go to college and live away from home. I was that shy. Other college kids were loving being away from home but I cried every night for my first week.

[Romulox]

49. In my experience, it's a very cruel form of child abuse. nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

53. then your 'experience' is shit n/t

[Romulox]

56. What an ignorant thing to say! You tend to make my case for me. nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. yes, you call my opinion 'ignorant'

when yours is obviously formed from a 'complete' set of data... might want to check your dictionary.

sP

[Romulox]

58. Your "opinion" of my experiences is, almost by definition, "ignorant"; you don't know me.

Logic. As taught in school.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

62. i see, it is ok to call is abuse

because it is only 'from your experience'...yes, in that case it might be. but you have no other opinion other than from your direct experience?

sP

[Romulox]

63. If you had reacted this way from the first, a "discussion" might have developed. Instead... nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

64. well, all I can do is apologize...

but I would wager it won't make a difference...


sP

[Romulox]

117. No, it's cool. I really didn't expect to be attacked for relaying *my experience*. Challenged,

certainly, but I was surprised by the sudden anger.

I'm not holding a grudge or anything. I have a deep concern about a particular situation, and because it is a child I am close to (who is not my child) I'm powerless to do anything about it. So that's where I'm coming from. I don't generally tell strangers what to do with their children, but *in some cases*, homeschooling can amount to a developmentally stunting form of abuse.

[JoeyT]

74. In mine it's the exact opposite, in some cases.

I have a friend that's homeschooling his daughter because the public schools here are too religious.

Yeah, you can try to stop them foisting it off on your kid in a public school, which ends in death threats and harassment for both the parents and the kid. Which is kind of a lot to throw onto the shoulders of a seven year old.

So homeschooling was the best option.

Of course I also know of people that homeschool their kids because they think the local churches don't have *enough* influence over the schools.

[Romulox]

115. I appreciate your response. I have experience in which a child is home-schooled in lieu of

doing the hard work of socializing him.

It's kicking the can to a time in which the stakes become much more dire. It's child abuse, in that situation.

[CabCurious]

132. It is certainly situational

[Odin2005]

99. Your "Experience" is BS.

[Romulox]

114. OK, that doesn't even make sense. nt

[mzteris]

160. Sorry but

F.U.

Leaving a child to languish in an unhealthy environmenti is child abuse.

You have no first hand experience, so you are in no place to even voice an opinion. It's based on nothing or very limited exposure.

Sometimes hsing is the only option. The only saving grace. The absolute best choice for the individual child. And that is not your call nor decision, especially since you do not know the parties involved nor their needs nor circumstance.

[Scuba]

54. Very, very few Americans are qualified.

[mzteris]

161. Sorry. Not your call.

I respect you a lot,but his is not your area of lnowledgw or expertise.

[Scuba]

172. First, thanks for the props. The respect is mutual....

... but how is it "not my call"?

I'm not trying to make a "call" on whether or not any individual parent(s) decide to homeschool or not, but.....

How many parents are skilled in education techniques for children of all ages?

How many are up-to-speed on math, science, social studies, language, etc.? And I mean knowledgeable about ALL the various disciplines as taught to tots, teens and in-betweens?

I know several high-school teachers who indicate it's a small challenge to keep current in their own discipline, let alone get current and keep current in EVERY discipline.

No doubt there are some very competent parents out there, but I'll stick with my assertion that very, very few are skilled in all these disciplines AND teaching methods to children of ALL ages.

Please enlighten me if I'm missing something.

[AngryAmish]

55. I live in Chicago. The public schools here are not an option.

Yes, yes there are a few spots in some elite public schools and lil AA will be testing for them in December or so, but if we don't move my kids are staying in private schools. For less wealthy folks, home schooling would be a world better than the public schools near where I live.

[exboyfil]

103. Do you feel that the spend is disproportionate in the district

to favor these elite schools? I am curious. The spend amount per student in Chicago is over $13K/yr, and I was wondering if it was divided fairly. Except for the exceptional superschools that fund almost their entire school on local taxes, most other school districts surrounding yours spend significantly less (of course it is cheaper to live there as well).

It looks like you have an online education system (Chicago Virtual Charter School). Students can take up to sophomore level math courses online from the University of Illinois at no cost to the student as well. We just started our first virtual school in Iowa this year (I was tempted to register my younger daughter but she has some pretty good teachers for 9th grade).

[AngryAmish]

129. The spend is disproportionate but the other way

The elite schools don't do special ed (except those folks gaming the learning disability system to get their kids more time on tests) or deal with criminal children (or soon to be criminal children). No problem children, less things to spend money on.

Also, teachers get paid the same teaching at Sweetness or Englewood. But if you want to teach children who want to learn and are from stable families then you do everything you can to teach at an elite school. Same pay, fewer headaches. So the elite schools get better teachers.

Finally, the corruption and high numbers of supervisors at CPS drive up the cost.

[bigwillq]

59. Up to the parents/guardians

I don't think I would ever do it, but I would never stop someone else from doing it. It's their kids, their choice.

[Prism]

60. Regulated home-schooling is fine

As long as there are yearly tests or an agency ensuring the child is receiving a competent education, I'm fine with parents choosing this path.

[DonRedwood]

61. Homeschoolers often qualify for special ed because their parents do such a crap job

We have had to test home schoolers when they return to the public school system. special ed qualification is based on IQ vs. performance. If a kid has a 4th grade intelligence but is reading at a 2nd grade level, he would probably qualify for special ed.

You have NO IDEA how often kids come out of home schooling with such big gaps (mom didn't understand math teaches problem solving so she taught it all wrong, etc.) that they can qualify to be in the special ed program. (which is much more expensive than a regular classroom).

So, once again, the general public pays to clean up the mess that conservatives create.

[hughee99]

69. So what you're saying is that you test the home schoolers

who have given up on home schooling, possibly because they realized they weren't doing it well, and they don't test well?

[DonRedwood]

147. yes

missing of chunks of knowledge or reading skills that really throw off their testing. Usually they end up getting tutoring or a pull-out program for extra math or reading teaching. But, that means they are missing classtime and are now behind in the things the class is learning now on top of the catch up.

I'm not saying people shouldn't home tutor...but there should be standards and requirements and benchmarks so the kids don't end up paying the price for their parents principles.

Let's face it...if mom isn't a great reader or doesn't like to read she is not going to be very good at teaching reading. Same with math. I have seen some homeschooling programs where the parents co-teach--I haven't seen data to support this but I'd guess that would help broaden what they learn and how.

SOmetimes just having a new teacher and new expectations and change is one of the most important social aspects of school.

[hughee99]

150. I agree on the standards completely,

Standards and benchmarks would be helpful for the parents who home school as well, as I suspect they may not all be aware of what the expectations are at a given age or what areas their own children might be falling behind in until it's too late.

I'm just pointing out that the people who you're testing are those that figured out that homeschooling is not working for them (for whatever reason) so the results would likely be skewed to the negative since it's not an evaluation of all home-schoolers.

Personally, I'm not in favor of homeschooling. I was not home schooled nor are my children, but I've met a number of very bright, well-adjusted people who were. It's not for everyone, but I certainly wouldn't outlaw it as some have suggested.

[coalition_unwilling]

65. I voted to "Make it illegal, remove choice" but only in the

context of complete overhaul of how public education is financed, structured and staffed in this country. No more starving urban districts (minority) while suburban districts (white) thrive, no more 40+ students to a class and so on. (I take my marching orders from radical reformers like Henri Giroux, fwiw.)

Without that underlying overhaul of the current system, I suppose it needs to stay in place, since the curent system only reflects and reinforces existing social divisions and does not overcome them.

[exboyfil]

81. Actually spend in a state like Iowa

is prety consistent across school districts with the larger more diverse school districts actually spending more per pupil. In most cases the Chicago city schools have much higher spends than the small city/rural schools in Illinois. Only a small handful of super school districts significantly outspend the Chicago city schools. Those school districts actually get little funding outside of their own district tax base (90% local) (as opposed Chicago which gets much more from outside the district (state and federal at 50%)).

The highest spend per pupil school districts are large urban diverse districts. About $13,500 for Chicago while several mostly white school districts surrounding Chicago spend significantly less.

Lets say you change the formula to income based instead of property tax based in Illinois - the richer school districts would just switch to a private school option. That is kind of what is happening now except you do have poor enclaves in these richer districts. The total number of these students is very small when compared to the rest of the state.



http://schools.chicagotribune.com/

[coalition_unwilling]

91. I should make it clear that I would outlaw home schooling and also

all private parochial and private schools (like Choate and Phlllips Exeter) in my proposed reform. That removes the option of 'going private'. Schools in my hypothetical democratic republic would be the 'great leveller' and not simply promote and reinforce existing class privilege.

[exboyfil]

93. Any other personal decisions you would

like to outlaw while you are at it in your utopia? So the children are the wards of the state, and the state will allow parents access to them only when the state declares it. Sorry I prefer the system we currently have over that. I think the parents of Choate and Exeter will move their kids offshore before they would subject them to your solution.

Parents who want to educate their children themselves should not expect assistance from the government. Neither should they be prevented from doing it themselves so long as the children can pass tests at, lets say, the 50% level of public school children. Beyond that I feel the state is too intrusive.

[coalition_unwilling]

119. Children should be wards of the state, at least when it comes to their education. A child's mind is

too valuable and important to allow some ill-educated Yahoo or rich prick to fuck it up. The state has a compelling interest in ensuring that childrens' minds are not fucked up. Romney went to a private school and look how it fucked him up (not that I'm shedding any tears for him at this late date, mind you).

As far as other personal decisions I would like to outlaw, I would outlaw the purchase of SUVs (or any vehicle getting fewer than 30 mpg) by anyone living within a city or suburb. Again, the state has a compelling interest in ensuring that pigheaded selfishness does not destroy the environment.

[blueamy66]

182. What is your issue with parochial schools?

Class privilege? BS

Like I said before, my Dad worked 2 jobs and my Mom 1 to send me to Catholic School. Most of my classmates were the children of Hispanic immigrants. My 2 best friends to this day are Hispanic.....one's father delivered Hostess baked goods and the other worked in a cable plant for AT&T.

Many parents did volunteer work to supplement the tuition costs.

Don't generalize. If you need more info, I'll get it to you.

[KamaAina]

67. There are good and bad homeschoolers, just like teachers in a school

Two of my favorite homeschoolers are accomplished enough to have their own Wikis while still in their 20s! One of them is known to many of you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ava_Lowery

Ava Lowery is an American peace activist from Alabama who has created over 70 Flash-based animations denouncing the Iraq War, former United States President George W. Bush, policies of the Republican Party and several individual Republican politicians. She has actively demonstrated against the war, and in support of soldiers.

Lowery is also the creator of the website Peace Takes Courage, and she and her work have received national media attention in 2005 and 2006, including interviews on Fox News. She is noted for her creation of an online animation, "WWJD" (which stands for "What Would Jesus Do?&quot . This flash-based animation displays photographs of wounded Iraqi children and suggests what we should do from a Christian angle over the song "Jesus Loves Me."...

Lowery was a homeschooled student. She is currently a student of Film & Television at New York University’s Tisch School of the Arts.

The other one hasn't discovered us -- yet -- but she was a major figure in Occupy Oakland.

Sunaura "Sunny" Taylor (born March 21, 1982 in Tucson, Arizona) is an American painter and activist for disability and animal rights. She currently resides in Oakland, California, and has taught classes at the University of California, Berkeley.

Taylor's work has been displayed in the Smithsonian and in galleries across the United States.She is the recipient of a 2008 Joan Mitchell Foundation Award. In 2004, she received the Grand Prize in the VSA arts Driving Force juried exhibition for emerging disabled artists. A portion of her work deals with animal rights issues, as Taylor is an abolitionist vegan.

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/the-worlds-15-most-extraordinary-homeschoolers/

13. Sunaura Taylor

Sunaura Taylor is an artist, writer and activist for animals and the disabled. She taught herself to paint while being unschooled by her artist mother and musician father in Athens, GA. Taylor has arthrogryposis multiplex congenita, a rare congenital joint disorder that prevents her from using her legs or arms, and believes the disease was caused by the toxic effect of contaminated waste illegally dumped by the U.S. Military near her birthplace in Tucson, AZ. Using her mouth, Taylor paints extraordinarily vivid and moving portraits of her subjects, primarily people with disabilities and animals, intending to raise philosophical and political issues surrounding disability/normalcy, personal identity and animal ethics. She appears in the film Examined Life, by her sister Astra Taylor (see above), discussing disability issues with the well known American philosopher Judith Butler. Taylor has won several awards for her work, including the Joan Mitchell Foundation award in 2008, and was featured on NPR’s All Things Considered.

A few weeks ago, she was rolling down a street in Oakland when a van full of people yelled out "Sunaura, we fucking love you!" She was a bit confused, as she usually goes by "Sunny". Turns out they were Occupiers, who remembered her from something she wrote for OO and signed "Sunaura".

Clearly both these women had outstanding homeschooled educations. Of course, neither one used a curriculum that featured Jesus riding a dinosaur.

[KamaAina]

89. Oh yes, No. 1 on that list of homeschoolers (alphabetically)

Julian Assange.

Even if you aren't a fan, you have to admit he's had a huge impact on the world.

[MicaelS]

68. Considering the negative impacts on Public Education of ...

(a) NCLB.
(b) Teaching to Standardized Tests
(c) Religious Zealots trying to insert the teaching of Creationism.
(d) Religious Zealots trying to remove the teaching of Critical Thinking.
(e) The emphasis on Athletics.

I think Home Schooling is a great idea.

[kelly1mm]

70. My wife is a public school teacher. It is because of her experience in our local school

system that we home school our children. Basically the curriculum is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. The discipline issues and the time they take away from the limited teaching time are a whole other topic.

[RepublicansRZombies]

71. same here

teaching skills were wasted in school system, mainly just keeping kids in line.

Currently schools, through lack of supervision and children mainly teaching each other the crap they watch on TV... are conditioning children how to become little porn starts at age 8. They are teaching children that a police state is the norm, they are terrorizing them with drills, moving them to undisclosed locations. Didn't anyone see the propaganda 'magazines' they started handing out after 9/11, promoting Bush and his bullshit?

When did forcing kids into dumbed down indoctrination become a liberal idea?

Homeschooling started with liberals to foster intelligence and creativity.

[Marinedem]

72. Homeschooling FTW.

I graduated in 05'.

EVERY. SINGLE. SCHOOL I went to after elementary was a stinking cesspool of crossword puzzles, busy work, and shoving kids through the pipe to meet standards.

I never even knew how little I knew until I grew up a bit and went on to college. It's sad how fucked some of our public schools are.

Hopefully, my wife and I will have the resources to sent our children to private school, or home school them.

Public school was nothing but daycare from sixth though twelfth grade, in my experience.

No thanks.

[progressivebydesign]

73. Not a fan at all. I've met homeschooling parents, most are not qualified to teach.

The ones that were teachers once, or have some sort of background that would enable them to homeschool successfully, are fine.

But the majority I've met are doing it only because they want some Little House on the Prairie thing for their kids, and the kids have been so socially awkward. We've had them in girl scout troops and sports teams, and most of them just can't relate at all to the other kids.

There are some good programs that are an alternative to home schooling... where the parents hire a teacher, and create a collective, with lots of parenting involvement for extra curricular activities, and they rent buildings like a school (yes, its for the rich people.) that works well.

But I think that too many people homeschool because of their regressive religious beliefs and total ignorance about public schools.

[mzteris]

162. How many?

Ten? Twenty! Hundreds?

You think your piddling sample speaks for all?

[TheKentuckian]

77. Honestly, I would declare any child not in public school until age 18 (unless they graduate) truant.

I think public school should be the only legal primary education, any home or private schooling would be during free time.

No lifeboats, no alternatives, no running away and doing for your's while society burns, no wealthy communities funding their own little castles because I'd end direct local funding and redistribute evenly.

I'd force poor, rich, liberal, conservative, rural, and metro to share the exact same burden and to act like stakeholders.

I'd defang local school boards and make them advisory committees to a national curriculum clearinghouse. I see no case why a child in Iowa doesn't need to know exactly what a kid from Jersey needs to know. In fact, global standards would seem to make more sense than local ones considering the job competition once school is completed. The advisory group could have influence on creating local history and civic courses to fill in the blanks in each community but even that would be based on national standards.

[The Straight Story]

79. So the effect would be: More control in the hands of the few who buy elections

Because it is those few who would end up making choices on what is taught.

I like diversity and different areas trying different things. And kids in Idaho may well need to know more about rural things than a kid in jersey (And sure, you can try to teach all kids the same things but you only have so much time. And different kids learn in different ways).

I respect other cultures and diversities. We are a diverse nation and our kids are not tools of the state or big business.

And I also tend to like me some freedom with my fries

[TheKentuckian]

154. Freedom to abandon poor and working class kids to school to prison labor or Walmart prep "education"

The rural kid will have segments of community based curriculum as will kids in suburbs and kids in the metro but the general knowledge in history, maths, literature, grammar, spelling, world and national civics , and sciences all spends the same.

This isn't a hundred years ago, the kid in Idaho may end up anywhere, doing anything.

We don't need yahoos demonstrating "diversity" by dumbing a generation of kids by teaching them about Jesus riding dinosaurs or edit/deleting Jefferson out of the history books. Most of this shit is an attempt to create a diversity of facts or in a few cases running away from such for those who have the time, resources, and ability which I have to grant. Well...honestly both those factors pale compared to white flight shit and rich folks making sure their get the best while trying to defund public education, divert funds from the masses, or both.

This just isn't a "fend for yourself" situation, the vast majority cannot for a lot of reasons. This is a purpose of government situation for me. There are few better reasons, really.

[TheMightyFavog]

82. I like Austria's approach.

Homeschooling is legal there, however, at the end of every year all homeschooled students have to take an exam that tests them to see that the parents are providing a quality education. If the student fails this exam two consecutive years, the student must then be enrolled in a public or parochial school the next year.

I like this. Parents still have a choice, but are still held accountable.

[Shrek]

85. I wonder if students from public or parochial schools are subjected to the same tests

And what happens to them if they fail the exam in two consecutive years?

Is anyone held accountable, or is accountability only for parents who choose homeschooling?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

101. are the public school kids subjected to the same exam?

what if they fail two years in a row?

sP

[cbayer]

83. I had a child I wanted to homeschool because I couldn't find a school

(public or private) that was appropriate for his needs.

The problem I ran into was that I could find no good curriculum or books that weren't religiously based, and I didn't feel confident enough to design my own.

[johnd83]

86. I think homeschooling can lead to fragile personalities

These days kids are very coddled. Being in public school, while unpleasant, gives a more realistic view of other people. If kids don't face adversity until college they will never be able to get through freshman year in a program like medicine or engineering.

[mzteris]

163. Roflmao

You have nooooo idea.

Hs'ers are sought by ivy league and other top ranked universities. Know why? They are usually ahead of their peers. They are self motivated. They don't need to be spoofed the material. They know how to manage their time. They are serious students there for an education, not a beer blast.

[johnd83]

177. Getting into college is not a good measure

I have spoken with the admissions people at where I went to college and graduate school (a top engineering school), and they make the point that the applications are so identical these days that they can't tell the difference. The whole admission process has become a game. A homeschooler may be able to play the game better; it doesn't mean they are going to do any better once they get there. A LOT of people wash out in the first year or two.

[blueamy66]

183. Can you please explain how the home schooled children "manage their time"?

Very curious......

[Avalux]

87. It must be regulated. Otherwise - parents can teach whatever they wish.

Some parents will provide a class A education for their kids, while others will not. If we want our society to be progressive and comparable to the rest of the world (i.e. not a bunch of dumbasses), then it must be regulated.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

88. Yes there should be a choice

[On the Road]

92. My Sister-in-Law Homeschooled Her Two Kids

The elder got a perfect SAT score and has a 3.9 GPA after two years of college. The younger transferred to a private high school for the last two years of college and just graduated.

The family is evangelical, and is pretty stereotypical of the kind of family people here have 'concerns' about.

My daughter went to Montessori and a public high school. I wouldn't think of home schooling personally, but I wouldn't dream of taking the option away from parents who think it's a good idea.

[Blue_In_AK]

95. I'm not real crazy about it,

But I can see times when it might be the only option...e.g. If you live remotely. I am a strong believer in public schools and think that kids benefit from the diversity.

[and-justice-for-all]

96. It should be illegal..

but there are special cases however that could be exempt.

The majority of home-schooled kids do not learn anything, because the parents do not know how to teach. Especially those religious folk who just think public school is evil because of 'all that there leernen', and I have seen it myself. We had to peer review each others papers in a writing class I had at university, and I read this young woman's paper which she talked about her home-schooling. It was the worst paper I have ever read and I had put over 100 corrections on it.

For a majority, there little actual learning going on and that is going to be a major problem down the line, not just for the individuals but for everyone else. Its not the public schools that are the problem, its their funding cuts and consolidation that is the problem.

[Jennicut]

97. I think it should be a choice of the parents but should be very well regulated.

Not all home school parents are religious nuts. Some are very far to the left.

I was never home schooled but hated the social aspect of high school. I could not stand the social cliques and other crap that is high school. But elementary school was great. Middle school began the downward slide. The teachers were all very good but there were days I dreaded going to school. I had to deal with a bully as well when I was 16. It just sucked. I never go back to my reunions, I have no friends from high school. I would give my kids the option if I could. Right now, they seem to love their elementary school and I like it as well. I volunteer there as much as possible.

[MADem]

102. I don't like it. I would never do it. People can do what they want, though.

I don't claim to be an expert, but the few anecdotal experiences I have had with it--acquaintances who homeschool, specifically--makes me think it absolutely SUCKS for the kids, and the parents I have known who do it have an over-inflated impression of their ability to teach their children. The kids are precocious in some areas, dumb as fucking dirt and miles behind their peers in others, frequently awkward in social situations where "schooled" kids are comfortable, confident and at ease, and while "free spiritedness" is all fine and dandy, a nation of kids like that would be a nation of questionably productive workers.

If the public schools stink and the private ones are too pricey, you might consider religious schools. I'd suck it up, send 'em to Catholic school, a Lutheran school, an Episcopal school--one of the "liturgical" ones--frankly, the standards are generally higher at those-- and tell them to ignore the religious stuff if it didn't suit your worldview. They'll at least get the basics there.

The other alternative is to send them to the shitty public school and personally supplement their education with enrichment programs (field trips disguised as family outings, summer science camp, writing camp, online programs, classes at community college and "lifelong learning" opportunities offered by towns/cities, for example) and some afternoon/weekend investment of your time filling in the gaps. Of course, that does take commitment of the 'above and beyond' sort. You also have to make it clear to the kid that it's not negotiable, too bad if it isn't what their friends do, and then follow through and make 'em do the extra work. If the kids are halfway bright they should have no trouble doing their schoolwork and the "extra" stuff you ask of them as well.

I think the social interaction that children learn in the school setting is at least as valuable as the "book learning." The sports programs, the sex ed, the dances, the fighting, the "seeing kids act like assholes and learning from it" thing--all of that helps a kid move from childhood to adulthood. Shielding kids from that stuff stunts their growth. By dealing with the good and bad of social interaction, children learn those 'cues' that tell them what to expect when they see people acting a certain way.

Bottom line though--a parent has got to parent. It doesn't matter if the school is the best in the world, if the kid isn't getting any guidance from the "folks."

[Liberal_in_LA]

104. saw show on home schooling with mother and daughter in prairie dresses, all where ignorant

as heck. the home schooling was clearly done as a barrier against the outside world. And the mom was uneducated. The almost grown daughters didn't know basic math or science. I'm ok with home schooling as long as it's monitored by the educational system - children tested periodically and such.

[Butterbean]

106. I am just LMAO at some of the responses here.

Go to mothering.com, then go to the discussion forums and go to the "Learning at Home and Beyond" section and read for a while. The mothering.com posters are anything but right wing, and are not home/unschooling their kids for religious reasons (unless you are talking about the Wiccans). Here, I'll even provide a handy dandy link:

http://www.mothering.com/community/f/50/learning-at-home-and-beyond

I always find these threads and the vaccine threads fascinating, because so many here associate home schooling and anti-vaxing with "fundies" and right wingers, when in my experience, it's the exact opposite. The only home schooling non-vaxers I have met are quite the opposite of right wing fundy. Just for yuks, here's a link to mothering's "I'm Not Vaccinating" forum. Again, give it a read. You might find it interesting.

http://www.mothering.com/community/f/443/im-not-vaccinating

[Care Acutely]

109. I love how you've bound homeschooling to vacccine hysterics

It enforces the point so many here have made with such perfect irony.

[Butterbean]

110. It was to make a point at how two groups of people are

commonly mischaracterized as "fundies" and "right wingers" because of their practices, when in actuality, many of them are the exact ideological opposite of right wingers and fundies.

Nice of you to try to demonize home schooling and non-vaxing, though. It makes your ignorance on both matters glaringly obvious, and so early on, too. It's so convenient when the less informed posters identify themselves so handily. Thanks ever so much.

Pull your head out of your own ass and learn a little bit about home schooling and meet some actual home schoolers instead of just believing everything you read on the interwebz, and you may actually *gasp* learn something. That's the nifty thing about life and meeting new people: you learn that not everybody does it like you, and not everybody makes the same choices as you, and that what works for you might not work for them. Your cramped little mind starts to actually open up.

[Care Acutely]

116. and now you retreat to the logical fallacy

I'm sure you believe your opinions are meritorious. You may wish to learn how to argue them without debasing yourself by resulting so completely to personal insult.

[Butterbean]

133. Pray tell, where is the logical fallacy?

I'm sure you believe your opinions are gospel. Because it is your opinion that home schooling is inferior, therefore it must be so? One's opinion does not make something fact. This is something you seem to not quite grasp here.

You may wish to step outside your little elitist bubble every once in a while and learn about the world around you before you shove your foot even further in your mouth. Not everyone lives and believes and thinks as you do, and guess what? That's what makes the world beautiful. There are many people out there who don't look down their noses at others' choices and sneer at their lifestyles because they are different from their own. They actually take the time to learn about the other lifestyles and life choices of others instead of automatically deeming them worthless or without any merit, as you have done.

[renie408]

192. LOL....for somebody who apparently thinks they 'debate meriotoriously'

...you certainly do not understand irony.

Do you get that you just made an egregious personal insult without furthering your argument at all?

That's really kind of funny.

[Wednesdays]

107. As for homeschooling because of political/cultural/religious reasons, it cuts both ways

I seriously considered homeschooling my child because of the RW fundies running things at one of the schools. It was insane.

[BarackTheVote]

112. I was home schooled!

Through high school, then went to junior college. I live in Illinois; my parents are U of I graduates, my dad a material science engineer, my mom an advertising major with an art history minor. In IL, we have very loose rules about home schooling: no supervision necessary, no standardized testing; to prove graduation, all it takes is a note from the parents. Sounds scary, but I graduated with a 4.0 GPA having achieved the highest grades at least three of my teachers had ever given (in my Earth Science class, I got something like 110%, a record that still stands eight years later). I was a willful kid and hated math, but when the time came, I aced all of the required math courses. I was president's list every semester, phi beta kappa, and a nominee for student of the year. I went to Columbia College Chicago, majoring in film and video, graduated summa cum laude with a 3.975gpa (two A-'s from my favorite teacher who "only gives an A for perfection"--I'm still in communication with that professor and he told me that one of the scripts I worked on he still remembers as "one of the best pieces of writing I've seen at Columbia in my decade there.&quot I moved back to my hometown a couple years ago and got a job at our local PBS station... not making as much as I'd like, but I'm working in my industry and loving what I do. I was just approached to produce a new TV show and we're in pre-pro for that now with a pilot deadline of October.

Socially, I guess I'm a little bit awkward, but about average from what I've seen.

Just wanted to add my anecdote to the discussion

[blueamy66]

184. But what else did you do throughout your schooling?

any hobbies? sports? clubs? Scouts?

[LeftyMom]

113. I'm a homeschooling parent.

The appallingly ignorant posts on this thread make me laugh. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go wash my bonnet on a rock in the stream behind the compound in time to get up early and teach some Bible Math.

[XemaSab]

120. Don't lie

You spent the weekend canning and reading fundie books and watching anti-evolutionist movies and um, not submitting to your headship.

It's okay. You can tell us.

[Odin2005]

123. Too many Authoritarians on DU.

That they want everyone to learn the "State-Sanctioned Curriculum" is telling. They think everyone needs to be indoctrinated into corporate drones. Anyone with a brain who remembers High School Civics knows this.

"State-Sanctioned Curriculum" = the BS in those Texas textbooks.

[kurtzapril4]

137. I went to public schools

And I'm not a "Corporate Drone," thank you very much. But yeah, why have educational standards? That's just toadying to the man, man.

[Paladin]

144. I Went To Texas Public Schools......

...and look how nicely I turned out.

[CabCurious]

131. If you are a homeschooling mom, then... you have to admit...

Almost all the major "homeschooling" materials, curriculum,and websites are catered to social conservatives.

And you know that to get approval involves EXTREMELY low standards.

[LeftyMom]

136. All 50 states have different rules for homeschooling.

PA makes you administer every standardized test except Canine Good Citizen and submit reams of paperwork, Texas doesn't even count homeschooled kids, most schools do something in between. My state demands the same things of homeschoolers that they do of private schools.

Canned curriculum sucks. If I wanted to offer my kid something that looked just like school I'd save myself a lot of trouble and send him to school. That said, if I wanted to use it I'd have no trouble finding options that were not religious in nature.

[BarackTheVote]

140. Homeschooling materials

Almost all the major "homeschooling" materials, curriculum,and websites are catered to social conservatives.

That's why we never used them. My parents made my own curriculum; I read a lot of classics and college text books and as many primary documents as we could get our hands on.

[mzteris]

164. Wtf says

You have to use that bs?

No one.

[baldguy]

121. As long as my tax dollars don't go to support it, as long as the state curriculum is followed,

And as long as the teachers are certified - I don't care.

[B Calm]

171. Bingo!!

[Atman]

124. Parents should have to pass a test first.

A reasonable amount of knowledge should be demonstrated. And I think there should be prohibitions against strictly religious-based "schooling." That is what church is for. You want to educate your children and give them a solid foundation in reality, teach them facts, not mythology and ghost stories.

[Philosoraptor]

126. Agreed

My religious whacko brother and his wife homeschooled their two kids, of course they aren't acredited teachers, and they only taught 'biblical' teachings, excluding science and evolution. They thought their kids would be corrupted by public schools, but as it turned out, the 2 kids have many emotional problems, and trouble dealing with people in general, because they were isolated deliberately.

I'm cool with home schooling by an acredited teacher/parent, but the christian fundamentalist crap should be left out of the equasion.

[freedom fighter jh]

130. Wish I could've voted twice.

It can be a good thing. It should be legal. Parents should have the choice to raise their kids as they see fit.

But, yeah, some people do it to brainwash their kids religiously.

BTW, the young adults I meet who were homeschooled are the most polite, the most respectful of adults, the most motivated to learn of all the young people that I work with. But they sometimes have knowledge gaps, which they explain by saying things like "Mom doesn't know much math." Moms have got to get together in groups and hire a tutor or swap teaching skills so no kid gets stuck without opportunity in one area or another. It can be done. Probably it is done often, but I meet the ones who have missed something.

[Ava]

135. I was homeschooled

Homeschoolers get a bad rep thanks to fundies, but even a lot of fundie homeschoolers get a better education (minus science issues) than public schools right now since many homeschoolers are from parts of the country where public schools are underfunded, such as the south. I'm a huge advocate of supporting public schools because I went to public school until the 7th grade, when no child left behind and lower property taxes really began to kick in in my part of the country. I went from being in an above average math class (algebra one versus pre-algebra and math 7) to our school having to get rid of the two higher math levels and put more students in less classes of math 7. I have no doubt that homeschooling gave me opportunities, both educational and those related to activism, that being in my public school wouldn't have. Thankfully I have the luxury of having a well-educated brilliant mother (love you mom!) who was able to take the time to homeschool me - something most students don't have and more reason for us to better-fund and better-organize public schools.

I think a big issue here is that a lot of people just don't understand that being a homeschooler doesn't mean that you don't support public schools - that coupled with misconceptions about all homeschoolers being fundies who don't want to learn about evolution.

[Odin2005]

139. AVA IS BACK!!!

Hi, Ava!!!

[Ava]

143. Hola!

[mzteris]

165. Ava!

How are you?

How's the videography? How's everything?

[Ava]

189. I'm good! Busy, but good!

I'm working on my senior year project right now:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018173768

[datasuspect]

141. well, it does keep precious Calebs, Logans, and Meghans

away from swarthy "Others"

[blueamy66]

148. Homeschool all you want

but don't expect your kid to be able to play organized sports for the public schools. I find that to be utter bs

[Prometheus Bound]

167. May I know why not?

I'm not being critical. I'm not American, so I don't know how things work and I'm wondering why that would be a problem.

[blueamy66]

169. Because children that go to "regular" school

have to wake up at a certain time, shower, dress, eat breakfast and arrive at school at another certain time. They must be in attendance for a certain amount of hours. THEN, they can go to the sports' practice.

Homeschooled kids do not put in the same amount of hours as regularly schooled kids. It is not fair.

If you want to play sports for a public or private school - you need to attend that school. Not just roll out of bed and go to the kitchen table and pick up a pencil.

If homeschooled kids want to play sports, play against other homeschooled kids. Just keep it fair.

[geardaddy]

202. Not if you're Tim Tebow.

[blueamy66]

207. don't get it

he sux anyway

[geardaddy]

209. He was homeschooled

yet got to play for the local high school IIRC.

I agree. He sux.

[blueamy66]

210. Okay. Thanks.

He shouldn't have been able to play for a public school.

I'm glad that we agree that he sux.

[LiberalFighter]

153. If the parent is not qualified to provide schooling absolutely not.

If the parent or both parents are working parents absolutely not.

I'm wondering how many well off parents have their kids home schooled? Of course, they have more options available to them.

[mzteris]

156. Sorry, but you have

Absolutely no idea what you're taking about.

Most people in this entire thread have no idea. Unless you've done it, lived it, breathed it - you don't know. You have some distorted uneducated idea, but you don't know.

I know single moms,. poor parents, middle class, sacrificinf, and yeah well off, too. I know people of every stripe socio- economically, religious or not, pagan, liberal, fundie, religious, atheist, Buddhist, bright and advanced, aspie, autistic, add, ADHD, different, weird, global learner, learning differenced, and any and all combinations of the above aforementioned.

It's about what is the best learning medium for your child. In this day and age, you don't have to be a fing expert on any damn subject. What you need to know is readily available. I haven't met many teachers in my long lifetime (and raising kids) who are THAT knowledgeable about much of anything except maybe their "speciality" and even then, sometimes I wonder.

[Taverner]

159. Make it illegal.

That kind of choice is a bad idea.

Say, should anyone want to be a self-appointed police officer?

A self-appointed meter reader?

A self-appointed doctor?

Let professionals handle it - and do not leave it up to the idiots.

[RZM]

168. Yes, that will be real popular

That will surely paint Democrats on the side of personal freedom and not government intrusion.

Or, maybe it would hand the Republicans an issue they were born to run on.

Take your pick.

[Taverner]

179. I never said it would make you popular, I just said it's what I would do...

Good thing I'm not on any ticket, huh?

[renie408]

193. We live in South Carolina. I cannot afford a private school. We homeschool.

My kid WAS in public school til the third grade when I pulled her out because she was getting A's but could not multiply AT ALL. Also, because we are atheists, she was being teased and after about the third time she got in the car bawling because the kids were telling her that we were going to burn in hell, I said Fuck it.

She went back in the sixth grade. Her sixth grade teacher posted BIBLE QUOTES on the chalkboard and when I complained, the principal supported her. I left my daughter in public school here until after 9th grade. That was when I realized that even though she was in honors classes and making A's and B's, nothing was sticking.

We homeschool now. She is doing better in all subjects now than she was previously. And you think YOU have the right to make that decision for me?

Interesting.

[Taverner]

197. I believe in a national curriculum

And I think this fragmentation of education is destroying our country.

Yes, you may have home schooled your kid right - but you are the exception, not the rule.

Home schooling has harmed more children, or rather produced more "God Warriors" than it has produced better students.

Granted, I am also against private schools - I think the ready alternative of private schools is part of what has made our schools suffer - people feel why bother to fix the local schools when they can send their kid to God Warrior Academy?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

198. For us, it wasn't issue of "why bother to fix the local schools"

It was an issue of living in a city with mostly bad schools, being zoned for a bad school, and knowing that just my wife and I weren't going to be able to fix the school on our own. I'm a big believer in public schools, but I wasn't willing to sacrifice my daughters' education to that principle knowing that just the two of us weren't going to be able to fix the school on our own.

I'm glad that there was a high quality, affordable Catholic school that we could send our daughters to so they could receive a great education, and I don't want that option or homeschooling taken away from parents.

[FBaggins]

203. There's an interesting contradiction in there.

Education is becoming less fragmented, not more.

So to the extent you see education in our country being "destroyed", you can't place it at the feet of fragmented curriculum choices.

[Taverner]

204. Public Schools in TN, TX and KY teaching Creationism sounds like fragmentation to me

If we had a national curriculum, we could get rid of the yahoos

[FBaggins]

205. You think that's something new?

In the past it was a county-by-county determination.

IOW, even more fragmented.

[kwolf68]

166. Two of my hockey players

Are home-schooled. The two kids are a bit awkward, but very nice and pleasant to have. They don't say much at all, are the two least talkative players on the team. They are products of uber-religious parents. I've had many other encounters with home schoolers and EVERY one made that decision because of religion.

To each his own...I can see a good point to home schooling, but so far in my experience it's just pure religious indoctrination.

[blueamy66]

208. Do you think it's fair that kids that get more sleep and don't have to work as hard

get to play in the same arena as kids that must be up early, shower, dress, eat breakfast, trek to school, spend an entire day at school AND THEN go to practice? Then return home for dinner, homework and bedtime?

I sure as heck don't.

Homeschooled kids don't spend 8 hours at school, 5 days a week. No transport time either. Wow, they get to go to the local lake and catch water and tadpoles, thenn come home and read the bible and do some arithmetic and maybe spell a few words.

Sorry, I am bitter cause homeschooled kids need to stay at home....stay outta city/county/public schooled sanctioned sports.....you made your decision....live with it!

[Prometheus Bound]

170. I find threads like this very helpful.

I've been thinking of homeschooling. It's good to hear from people who have done it.

[renie408]

196. For us, it was the best decision we have ever made.

My daughter is bright, well spoken, well read and well informed. And it really REALLY isn't all that hard. People act like you have to be an expert in each subject to be able to homeschool. Just SO not true. And these days with most school districts cutting back, how likely is it that you are going to get a certified English teacher or math teacher or whatever? My son's high school FOOTBALL COACH taught the AP History class. My son got a 2 on the exam. Go figure. BTW, he got a 5 on both the Calculus and Chem exams and is on full scholarship to Clemson.

We homeschool our daughter because she is dyslexic and was having problems with both her reading and her self-esteem. She is too goddam smart to go around thinking there is something wrong with her. And I could get NO help from the school system. Here, at least, they are not set up to deal with smart kids with mild LD's. Kids fall into categories and they were on their way into forcing my daughter into the remedial category. This is a damned smart kid who has no problems with very complex subjects when given room for her mild dyslexia. It just slows her down in some ways, which they don't have room for in our public school system.

[LWolf]

174. Other.

I support strongly regulated homeschooling with significant oversight to make sure education is actually happening appropriately.

By that I don't mean standardized tests or scripted curriculum, but making sure that students spend a significant amount of time engaged in learning in ways that will help them become literate, numerate, and critical thinkers.

[malokvale77]

178. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly in home schooling...

I have this theory, though: If home schooling and private schooling were taken off the table, public schools would improve real quick.

[Chan790]

180. Support, but only with the use of an accredited curriculum or by a certified teacher.

I don't think people should be allowed to homeschool and teach some of the lunacy that a lot of homeschoolers are taught. Basic educational standards must be met, along with certain curricular requirements.

[renie408]

194. If you haven't researched what homeschooling can be, you should probably refrain from comment.

It is a misconception that homeschooling is only for religious nuts or hippies who want to let their children run free and naked all day long.

We live in South Carolina. We homeschool. I say all the time that we are the only parents in SC homeschooling because we are NOT religious. We pulled my daughter out of public school here in the third grade because A) she was being teased and told that we were going to burn in hell, which made her cry repeatedly. When I went to her teacher and tried to discuss this with her, she asked me if we had TRIED going to church. And B) she was making straight A's and could not do her multiplication tables, could barely read and wasn't getting any help with her dyslexia. At the time, the state of SC didn't 'recognize' dyslexia as a learning disability. There was no extra help for her.

She went back into public school in the sixth grade. She wanted to go to school with her friends. By that time she was reading well and doing math on an 8th grade level, so I figured fine. Her sixth grade teacher posted BIBLE QUOTES on the whiteboard and gave out pencils with 'The Path to Salvation' written on them for rewards. When I complained to the principal, he took her side.

We left our daughter in public school, though, because by then she was old enough to understand what was going on and other people's religious bigotry didn't bother her as much. Even when a TEACHER started a rumor about my daughter in the ninth grade that we were Wiccans and believed in the occult because we were atheists, I left her in. I did tell that teacher at a teacher conference that if she were not careful, I would put a spell on her. I thought it was hysterical. The teacher less so.

We went back to homeschooling in the 10th grade because my daughter's reading was falling behind and she was just not LEARNING anything. She flatly told me that the only stuff she learned, she learned from home. So, back to homeschooling we went.

There are so many resources for homeschooling parents these days from internet classes to private tutors to groups you can join for free to share information and learning. My family feels like our daughter is getting a better, more flexible education at home than she could ever receive at the public schools available to us.

[mike_c]

206. your experience with the outcome of home schooling...

...was exactly my experience as well. We had some of the reasons in common too-- we're atheists and lived in the south while our daughter home schooled-- but the main reason we did it was because we respected our daughter, and she put forward a good argument in favor. AND she excelled at it. Today she has advanced degrees in cognitive science and adult education, so she was evidently well prepared for college and grad school after home schooling through parts of middle school and all but one semester or so of high school. Frankly, it was a great experience for all of us.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

195. Not a choice I would have made

But I have no desire to take that choice away from others. IMO, parents have the primary responsibility for educating their children, and any and all options that work for families should be available to them.

[Redford]

200. I sometimes wish I had home schooled my kids.

We live in one of the best sought after school districts in the state and I still find it lacking. Private school was not much better.

[mike_c]

201. my homeschooled daughter now has an advanced degree....

Frankly, it's hard to imagine ANYTHING that did not go well for her due to home schooling. Both of her parents are university profs (although we were college and grad students for much of the time she was actually home schooling). We're atheists, so the decision to home school had nothing to do with religious instruction-- in fact, she was the one who requested it after spending several years in Montessori school before transferring to public school, where she was WAY ahead of her age group.

on edit-- we did not follow any particular curriculum, nor do regular testing, etc. We gave her books to read and discuss and brought her to the lab for access to microscopes and such. Most of her learning was self directed. She did a top notch job, IMO.