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Baitball Blogger

(46,576 posts)
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:35 AM Oct 2018

They told Gore not to investigate the 2000 election for the good of the country..

And we got Bush and the weapons of mass destruction lie that took us into Iraq.

They told Obama not to investigate the Bush-Cheney Iraq debacle for the good of the country, and Obama's success in pulling us out of that national mess was marginalized. Without leverage, he had nothing to push his Merrick Garland nominee. Because, let's face it, that's how the right have been fighting since Clinton's time. Put legal pressure on the Dem, and win concessions in the right-leaning Senate.

Obama also did not have the pull to expose Mitch McConnell's Russian collusion and that was not investigated. So, we got Trump.

And now they are trying to tell us not to investigate Kavanaugh.

Folks, we have been on a slippery slope since Clinton's time. Recognize it. We have to put pressure on the Right or we have nothing to negotiate with.

120 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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They told Gore not to investigate the 2000 election for the good of the country.. (Original Post) Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 OP
It's always off the table when we have the power. Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #1
This has to change. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #3
+1 OnDoutside Oct 2018 #8
+101010 populistdriven Oct 2018 #88
until the left stops ignoring 1500 coordinated radio stations we're playing defense certainot Oct 2018 #91
Gotta get people to buy what we're selling. MadDAsHell Oct 2018 #96
That something is called "money" DBoon Oct 2018 #101
+1 betsuni Oct 2018 #103
The Fairness Doctrine Roy Rolling Oct 2018 #113
mom and pop vs wall mart. the idea that it's demand is like suggesting 95% of americans certainot Oct 2018 #106
Pelosi took impeachment off the table when Dems won the 2006 midterms Martin Eden Oct 2018 #16
Again? Bear Creek Oct 2018 #17
Curious do you know what it takes to impeach and convict? still_one Oct 2018 #24
For impeachment, you have to lie about getting a blow job in the oval office. CentralMass Oct 2018 #30
Actually, impeachment is whatever the house decides it to be. However, I was asking the other still_one Oct 2018 #31
I understood. I was making the point that far more serious offenses have been overlooked. CentralMass Oct 2018 #34
I know Central, and you are absolutely right still_one Oct 2018 #35
+roflmao traladeda Oct 2018 #42
It doesn't matter. Impeachment hearings would have exposed the crimes against humanity. 3Hotdogs Oct 2018 #60
Ok, whatever up u say bud. I will be GOTV by canvassing still_one Oct 2018 #73
I guess the resignation of Bush Defender Gonzales and all the public hearings.. JHan Oct 2018 #82
Absolutely J. Convenient memories are amazing still_one Oct 2018 #83
People could do with remembering what things were like in 2006 JHan Oct 2018 #118
They sure could still_one Oct 2018 #119
How many Bush administration officials actually paid for their crimes? issuesDemocrats Oct 2018 #84
Do you recall the challenges Obama faced when he came into office.. JHan Oct 2018 #117
Post removed Post removed Oct 2018 #86
Equally curious, can you acknowledge there is a difference between... JHB Oct 2018 #63
No, because I disagree it would be "venal showboating" Martin Eden Oct 2018 #75
By "venal showboating", I had in mind the impeachment of Bill Clinton... JHB Oct 2018 #85
Two thirds in the Senate Martin Eden Oct 2018 #72
Be careful M.E. I was alerted for saying the same thing about Pelosi last year Submariner Oct 2018 #53
Exactly. The same shit I was alerted on --- that and other stuff that offended and was designed to 3Hotdogs Oct 2018 #59
Can you be alerted for alerting me to that potential alert? Martin Eden Oct 2018 #74
She has not posted to this thread so maybe we are in the clear Submariner Oct 2018 #87
Exactly! Duppers Oct 2018 #40
Al Franken Voices Of Reason Oct 2018 #114
People on this board attack me when I said Obama was wrong not to investigate. olegramps Oct 2018 #70
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2018 #2
So, no more excuses. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #5
Really? I hope you are enjoying your stay here still_one Oct 2018 #7
We have to investigate for the good of the country. smirkymonkey Oct 2018 #4
Exactly, most people don't know how bad it is. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #10
Gee, I guess those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee in still_one Oct 2018 #6
Your argument is a false equivalence. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #11
First of all the Democrats have indicated they will invetigate Kavanaugh if they win the midterms. still_one Oct 2018 #15
Good post Andy823 Oct 2018 #33
But "indicated" is not doing it. I doubt they ever will. LiberalLovinLug Oct 2018 #57
Meanwhile, lock her up dalton99a Oct 2018 #9
Play offense. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #12
Rethugs play by a different set of rules Martin Eden Oct 2018 #13
We have been on the correct side of the facts Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #14
Because if we bring 2 knives, it means we're trying to take their guns away. Volaris Oct 2018 #49
They are not baby seals. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #56
I'll take that description as it's accurate. Volaris Oct 2018 #58
Amen! I am sick and tired of the Dems being so easily silenced. pdsimdars Oct 2018 #18
Yep! n/t JoeOtterbein Oct 2018 #19
Republicans lie, cheat, and steal elections and then run over Democrats with a Mack truck. Lonestarblue Oct 2018 #20
M$M landed hard on Howard Dean for one yell. Duppers Oct 2018 #44
Still think Dean stood the best chance of sending Shrub packing Jake Stern Oct 2018 #52
Totally agree. Duppers Oct 2018 #64
I totally disagree karynnj Oct 2018 #90
I read the crowd noise was minimized to make the scream sound louder & more prominent CrispyQ Oct 2018 #67
Let's not forget that the corporate media watoos Oct 2018 #21
Thank you for saying this RockCreek Oct 2018 #36
2nd that. Duppers Oct 2018 #46
I hope Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes Varaddem Oct 2018 #69
That's who they are. lsewpershad Oct 2018 #22
It keeps coming back to bringing a knife to a gunfight. Doodley Oct 2018 #23
https://progressive.org/op-eds/howard-zinn-despair-supreme-court/ Firestorm49 Oct 2018 #25
And we always do what we are told. n/t Polly Hennessey Oct 2018 #26
"No more Mr. Nice Guy!" BadgerMom Oct 2018 #27
"for the good of the country" as in "don't do this, or riots will happen; profits will be at risk" anarch Oct 2018 #28
I hope all the party leaders have learned a very important lesson elmac Oct 2018 #29
This is why McConnell/Trump are zentrum Oct 2018 #32
They are counting on it. Power 2 the People Oct 2018 #39
Completely Agree Scubamatt Oct 2018 #41
Exactly. zentrum Oct 2018 #50
+1 Power 2 the People Oct 2018 #37
Will never forget Reid saying he didn't believe McConnell's assertion that GOP's #1 job was to block JudyM Oct 2018 #38
There is a crying need for Democrats to go "full Avenatti." VOX Oct 2018 #43
The sad truth is that it's going to take a pit bull to defeat Trump. Jake Stern Oct 2018 #61
It's a fact. The Democratic candidate has to go straight at him and unload. VOX Oct 2018 #62
Amen Baitball. Let's put the Kumbaya shit in the closet. NoMoreRepugs Oct 2018 #45
We are fooling ourselves if we think winning in chamber KPN Oct 2018 #47
Every time we're told to let something go dflprincess Oct 2018 #48
Exactly this. shanny Oct 2018 #76
Ford's pardon of Nixon set the precedent of muntrv Oct 2018 #51
yes yes YES rurallib Oct 2018 #65
Exactly! shanny Oct 2018 #77
Yes, glad you mentioned this robbob Oct 2018 #95
I remember when Pelosi said "impeachment is off the table". riverwalker Oct 2018 #54
Rec & 100% agree. It's time to turn into assholes. n/t SpankMe Oct 2018 #55
9/11 rescued Bush's presidency. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2018 #66
Careful. You will be called a defeatist. CrispyQ Oct 2018 #68
For the good of the country? TryLogic Oct 2018 #71
I'm old, but I so miss Senator Lyndon Johnson... rickyhall Oct 2018 #78
NEVER FORGET Grasswire2 Oct 2018 #79
They outshout us, every time. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #80
Kavanaugh was part of the Brooks Brothers assault that shut down the voting in 2000. SunSeeker Oct 2018 #97
Too bad he wasn't in the picture. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #98
Now you're beginning to hear the drumbeat of whining from thuglicans of .... LenaBaby61 Oct 2018 #102
Strongly Agree jimlup Oct 2018 #81
the media can do its job for once. pansypoo53219 Oct 2018 #89
They are fired up now, though it might be too little too late. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #93
You forgot telling Kerry not to investigate 2004 when Ken Blackwell helped them steal Ohio for Bush Amaryllis Oct 2018 #92
+1,000 Loubee Oct 2018 #94
IMO, you are putting this way too mildly... rwsanders Oct 2018 #99
Of course, if Gore had won any of 10 States that Clinton won, Florida would have been meaningless brooklynite Oct 2018 #100
I completely agree ellie Oct 2018 #104
YES!!! F THAT!!!! EndGOPPropaganda Oct 2018 #105
Which was utter garbage I would add. roamer65 Oct 2018 #107
Accountability for crimes HAD BETTER be on the table when we take back power. PatrickforO Oct 2018 #108
Recognizing & Combatting "Tropes" PandoraAwakened Oct 2018 #109
Jesus. So informative. Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #110
Still a newbie here PandoraAwakened Oct 2018 #111
Do you mind if I bring attention to your post? Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #116
No problem, please share as necessary PandoraAwakened Oct 2018 #120
Totally agree Ohioboy Oct 2018 #112
Right, and we are always playing defense with them because we allow Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #115

Baitball Blogger

(46,576 posts)
3. This has to change.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:44 AM
Oct 2018

We need leaders who understand that they have to be tough and push back. It’s time to go offensive.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
91. until the left stops ignoring 1500 coordinated radio stations we're playing defense
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 07:48 PM
Oct 2018

and catch up

limbaugh led the attacks on anita hill and just did the same with blasey ford with the same result, and the left/dems haven't learned a fucking thing in 30 fucking years

a few intimidated senators, one of two votes, and people still think talk radio is irrelevant

 

MadDAsHell

(2,067 posts)
96. Gotta get people to buy what we're selling.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:00 PM
Oct 2018

Why can so many neocon radio program survive, but Air America failed?

Something is missing in the secret sauce.

DBoon

(22,288 posts)
101. That something is called "money"
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:42 PM
Oct 2018

deep pocket right wing billionaires are willing to keep money losing programs on the air for years because they understand the value of the propaganda.

Roy Rolling

(6,856 posts)
113. The Fairness Doctrine
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 09:19 AM
Oct 2018

Talk radio and Fox News are products of Republicans' removal of the Fairness Doctrine. It is not censorship, it is equal time for political (non-commercial) content. Commercial radio needs stricter rules.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
106. mom and pop vs wall mart. the idea that it's demand is like suggesting 95% of americans
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 01:02 AM
Oct 2018

want lies, ignorance, and trump

they have a monopoly and they protect it and the only way they can keep it is to be so idiotic and obnoxious and rancid that the left sticks their ear buds in theirears and continues the biggest political mistake in history, ignoring 1500 radio stations while they blast 40 states wioth 80 senators.

like i said, the biggest political mistake in history

luckily, through no fault of their own, artificial intelligence makes it easier and cheaper to transcribe/digitize spoken word by an order of magnitude. so the left is saved by technology. eventually.

limbaugh just led the hillification of blasey ford and the left has no fucking clue. it was just like he did to hill 30 years ago, and the left has not learned a fucking thing.

Martin Eden

(12,805 posts)
16. Pelosi took impeachment off the table when Dems won the 2006 midterms
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:00 AM
Oct 2018

To me, that was taking justice for war crimes off the table. It sent a message that such gross abuse of power can be committed with impunity. Short term political calculation can not only be a disservice to the public interest, it can also be a profound miscalculation for the long term.

Bear Creek

(883 posts)
17. Again?
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:19 AM
Oct 2018

She just said it again last week. Also said e Pluribus unum I know alot of people who use that term for money. Will need to put pressure on her to do the right thing.

still_one

(91,965 posts)
31. Actually, impeachment is whatever the house decides it to be. However, I was asking the other
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:58 AM
Oct 2018

person if they knew exactly what was required for BOTH impeachment and conviction


3Hotdogs

(12,210 posts)
60. It doesn't matter. Impeachment hearings would have exposed the crimes against humanity.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:38 PM
Oct 2018

We would have heard about Hans Blix, why the smoking gun was bullshit and other lies that we might not even know about.

Instead, we are faced with hundreds of thousands of lives lost, $Trillion dollar war, the middle east unstabilized and Bush's popularity on the increase.


Impeachment is off the table? FUCK ME !

still_one

(91,965 posts)
73. Ok, whatever up u say bud. I will be GOTV by canvassing
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:45 PM
Oct 2018

and call banking so we can send a message to trump and the fucking Russian assholes who are doing their damndest to divide Democrats like they did in 2016 before the general election, but it won’t work this time,

JHan

(10,173 posts)
82. I guess the resignation of Bush Defender Gonzales and all the public hearings..
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:45 PM
Oct 2018

featuring bigwigs in the bush administration never happened.

But you know, Dems did nothing.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
118. People could do with remembering what things were like in 2006
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 03:04 PM
Oct 2018

And what Obama had to fix when he took office.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
117. Do you recall the challenges Obama faced when he came into office..
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 03:02 PM
Oct 2018

And cast your mind back to 2006. Your recollection ought to be stronger than mine.

Response to still_one (Reply #73)

JHB

(37,133 posts)
63. Equally curious, can you acknowledge there is a difference between...
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:50 PM
Oct 2018

...not moving ahead with impeachment proceedings because moving forward without the votes in the senate to remove from office is just venal showboating, and with declaring a priori that it is "off he table" and right out of the gate they never have to worry about it?

Because the difference is quite real.

Martin Eden

(12,805 posts)
75. No, because I disagree it would be "venal showboating"
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:58 PM
Oct 2018

Serious impeachable offenses should be thoroughly and impartially investigated. If the evidence makes a very strong case for high crimes, then impeachment is warranted -- regardless if the opposition party refuses to do their duty for our country. This assumes a very strong case both legally and before the US voting public.

Failure to pursue the truth and to impeach when warranted is worse than failure to convict because it encourages more serious abuses of power in the future. The consequences of the Iraq War are far worse than what was anticipated in the short term political calculations of taking it "off the table."

Here's some speculation of my own:
Kerry would have won in 2004 if he had stood firmly against the Iraq War Resolution in October 2002 rather than voting for it.
Hillary's presidential prospects would have improved as well.

If the Democrats had taken a strong principled stand against the rush to war in Iraq they would have been proved right by subsequent events, much to their long term political benefit.

If noting else, impeachment in 2007 would have brought the war crimes of GW Bush and Dick Cheney before the public in much clearer focus -- to the long term detriment of the Republican Party, even if (or because) they voted along party lines in blocking a justified impeachment.

JHB

(37,133 posts)
85. By "venal showboating", I had in mind the impeachment of Bill Clinton...
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:03 PM
Oct 2018

...an action undertaken with dubious foundation -- when they knew they did not have the votes to remove him from office -- to pander to, as I like to put it, the Salome faction of their party, for whom they could not deliver his head on a plate.

I also think Kavanaugh's case is different from Bush's, since Kavanaugh's office is a lifetime appointment. I don't necessarily agree with you about how an impeachment of Bush would have played out -- nor do I necessarily disagree, either -- but that "off the table" business was the worst of both worlds.

I don't advocate doing nothing. Kavanugh's personal violations of the law and court standards should be one of the bass drums we thump, along with the corrupt manner in which he was installed on the court, the illegitimacy of him and Gorsuch, and the fact that no decision where they make deciding votes can be taken as precedent.

Can he be impeached more than once for the same offenses? I don't think so, but I'm not an expert. If I'm correct in that, then just going ahead with it would be toothless, and they'll brazen it out as they usually do. The impeachment option should be kept open. Not "off the table". Not "keeping our powder dry". Open and available, until the ground is better prepared to remove him other conservative judges with clear legal and ethical issues.

Now, there might be circumstances where moving ahead with an impeachment despite a likely failure to remove that might change my mind about when to do so, but that's going to require us retaking the House so that full, thorough, and unhindered investigation can be done.

Submariner

(12,485 posts)
53. Be careful M.E. I was alerted for saying the same thing about Pelosi last year
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:18 PM
Oct 2018

you will know who it is when she rubs your face in it with a wavy smillie.

3Hotdogs

(12,210 posts)
59. Exactly. The same shit I was alerted on --- that and other stuff that offended and was designed to
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:34 PM
Oct 2018

point out that not every thing done by a Democrat is working to our best interest.

50 - 50 this gets alerted also.

Martin Eden

(12,805 posts)
74. Can you be alerted for alerting me to that potential alert?
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:45 PM
Oct 2018

Am I being uncareful for asking that question?

Submariner

(12,485 posts)
87. She has not posted to this thread so maybe we are in the clear
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 06:18 PM
Oct 2018

but if she shows up I'm sure I'll find out the hard way.

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
40. Exactly!
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:32 PM
Oct 2018

And we gave them concessions. And we kick some of our best fighters to the curb...Al Franken.

Why do we always play the too-nice role?
Then put up with their lies?

 

Voices Of Reason

(16 posts)
114. Al Franken
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 09:46 AM
Oct 2018

Franken should have waited the hysterical time out and would still be in office. At least Al was honest in his views.

olegramps

(8,200 posts)
70. People on this board attack me when I said Obama was wrong not to investigate.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:30 PM
Oct 2018

The congress should have had an in depth investigation of the lies that were told by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the entire administration. They are responsible for the deaths of over 5,000 of our soldiers and tens of thousands maimed for life. Obama attempts to be bipartisan was meant by the Republicans hatred and determination not to pass anything that he or the Democrats proposed.

They are the scum of the earth and their party must be destroyed before it destroys our nation. I have nothing but contempt for each and every member of the Republican Party.

Response to Baitball Blogger (Original post)

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
4. We have to investigate for the good of the country.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:45 AM
Oct 2018

Kavenaugh is a disaster. Most of the people cheering him on have no idea how he is going to negatively impact their lives.

Baitball Blogger

(46,576 posts)
10. Exactly, most people don't know how bad it is.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:50 AM
Oct 2018

Which is why we need to support an investigation that will reveal the truth. The trump republicans allowed only a limited review to give cover to yes votes. At least a full investigation will remove the high ground from Republicans, once and for all. They do not have the integrity to lead this country.

still_one

(91,965 posts)
6. Gee, I guess those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee in
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:47 AM
Oct 2018

2016 because "THE SUPREME COURT DIDN'T MATTER", and didn't matter

It didn't take much either. 1%

In everyone of those critical swing states the Democratic nominee lost by less than 1%. Jill Stein received 1% of the vote in those states, and as a bonus every Democrat running for Senate in those critical swing states lost to the incumbent, establishment, republican, and those Democrats were progressive by any standard

Nice strawman argument though

Perhaps the focus should be on winning the MIDTERMS. You heard of the expression the horse before the cart?


still_one

(91,965 posts)
15. First of all the Democrats have indicated they will invetigate Kavanaugh if they win the midterms.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:59 AM
Oct 2018

I know, its funny about how the majority party controls the agenda


It also isn't a false equivalence. It is factual, that is what happened. Ironically, in 2000 those usual suspect were also spewing the same bullshit that there was no difference between republicans and Democrats.

Nothing will happen unless we win the midterms. That is also factual



Andy823

(11,495 posts)
33. Good post
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:01 PM
Oct 2018

Sometimes I think there are posters here who really aren't trying to unite us, but instead divide us, and they alway seem to show up around election time!

LiberalLovinLug

(14,154 posts)
57. But "indicated" is not doing it. I doubt they ever will.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:32 PM
Oct 2018

If you go by history, by precedence, "impeachment is off the table". "Looking forward not backwards".

And where has that gotten us?

This paralyzing fear that the Dem leadership has of a fight is perpetually nauseating. They THINK that they'd better not sound too fiesty or they'd scare off voters, or rile up R voters. I don't know. But they fail to understand how even more voters would flock to vote D if they saw a bit of backbone once in awhile.

I think there's a lot of Americans that don't necessarily like Trump's personal ethics or morality, but they respect that fight in him. Even that he'll bald face lie to fight for what he wants. That he is to be admired, not disdained, for soldiering on after the Hollywood access tape came out, and other scandals. Such fortitude! Anyone else would have resigned, but dear Donald stuck it out.....because......he wanted to make America great again! And they look at Democrats and see capitulators who keep handing them and inch, so they can grab another mile. Sorry, but a lot of potential D voters are not inspired by that MO.

Martin Eden

(12,805 posts)
13. Rethugs play by a different set of rules
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:53 AM
Oct 2018

They get away with it and win while we're expected to bring a knife to their gun fight.

Volaris

(10,260 posts)
49. Because if we bring 2 knives, it means we're trying to take their guns away.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:00 PM
Oct 2018

I wonder what would happen if we showed up with Lady Justice's Very Big Sword in hand.

I say we find the fuck out this time, and when they start in with the tears I say we ignore it.

This next part is not politically correct probably, but if we don't start clubbing these baby seals, the whole fuckin village is gonna starve.

 

pdsimdars

(6,007 posts)
18. Amen! I am sick and tired of the Dems being so easily silenced.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:21 AM
Oct 2018

And they keep talking about "are they really thinking about the effect of all these loud demonstrations?"
WTF? That is the only way REAL changes happen, when the people DEMAND it!

Lonestarblue

(9,880 posts)
20. Republicans lie, cheat, and steal elections and then run over Democrats with a Mack truck.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:27 AM
Oct 2018

After the battle, they’re eager to portray Democrats as sore losers and we just need to get over the treatment and work “for the good of the country.” Bullshit! We need to call out the dirty politics as it is happening and call out Republicans on their lies immediately. Democratic senators talk about issues like this in deferential, measured tones while Republicans scream bloody murder and act like raving lunatics—Lindsey Graham, for example. But who gets on the evening news over and over? Lindsey Graham—and Donald Trump mocking Dr. Ford while his audience laughs and cheers. It’s left to a few commentators and guests on television programs that many people do not watch (like MSNBC) to point out the lies and to play disgusting scenes from Trump rallies.

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
44. M$M landed hard on Howard Dean for one yell.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:40 PM
Oct 2018

Remember the 2004 presidential race? Just one exuberant yell.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
52. Still think Dean stood the best chance of sending Shrub packing
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:15 PM
Oct 2018

Don't get me wrong, I like John Kerry but he just wasn't the one we needed at that moment.

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
64. Totally agree.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:58 PM
Oct 2018

Kerry is a great guy (met/bumped into him in a supermarket of all places and I voted for him), but Howard Dean was the best candidate to have guided the country in another direction. He was an Al Franken type fighter.


karynnj

(59,475 posts)
90. I totally disagree
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 07:02 PM
Oct 2018

The issue that year was national security and war. Both issues that Kerry had enormous credibility on. People forget that in fall 2003, Bush was at 60 percent. He was polled as easily beating any Democrat, including Dean he was matched against. Kerry was then such a long shot that he was not polled against Bush until he won Iowa.

Note that where many here argue that Dean lost due to the media attack on his scream -- the story had that not have happened would have been that he lost by TWENTY PERCENT to Kerry in Iowa -- and he and Gephardt had been the people expected to win. In reality, people on the ground in Iowa saw Kerry steadily gaining support. One Iowan I met said that one difference between Kerry and the rest was that once a person agreed to be for Kerry -- they stayed with him.

One thing that really may have helped Kerry in the end was the events (more than the coverage) in the last weekend. Kerry was joined by the Republican law enforcement officer who was the marine Kerry saved in Vietnam. I was watching TV in NJ -- and that Kerry story was as close to reality looking like a 1940s movie where the somewhat shy hero is praised by a man he saved long ago. Meanwhile, the Dean story was the one where he told a 70 plus year old to sit down. Yeah, the guy was heckling him, but awful optics.

The Republicans had to completely smear Kerry's honorable service where the Navy awarded him two presteigic awards and where he was wouned 3 times. More relevant - though downplayed by the media - he was an early voice warning about non state terrorism and advocating for tools to follow the money. These tools, which have proven valuable were finally enacted after 2001. Dean would have been charactertized as having used a medical deferment and then spent cosiderable time skiing. (That is apparently only good if you are a Republican.) This would have been contrasted with Bush as a war time President (and to a far lesser degree, someone who served in the NG.)

Dean could not have blown Bush out of the water in the first debate on foreign policy. Kerry's dilagence as a 20 year member of teh Senate Foreign Relations committee and his unusual skill at debating showed -- and even Republicans did not really contest that he won that debate.

I have met both Dean and Kerry -- Kerry at a book signing for his Teresa's book and Dean at a Burlington VT Democratic event. Kerry was by far the more impressive. In fact, Dean actually was less impressive in his comments than Madeline Kunin, another former VT Governor.

CrispyQ

(36,231 posts)
67. I read the crowd noise was minimized to make the scream sound louder & more prominent
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 02:58 PM
Oct 2018

than it actually was. The whole electoral process has become a circus. It's shameful.

 

watoos

(7,142 posts)
21. Let's not forget that the corporate media
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:32 AM
Oct 2018

plays a big role in all of this. The 3 major cable news networks all spew out the right wing narratives.

The narrative out there now is that Avenatti is to blame for Kavanaugh, that one makes me belly laugh. The right is trying to smear Avenatti because he is one Democrat who can change the right wing narrative. Please folks, don't fall for this smear campaign against Avenatti.

If we want to cry over spilled milk why not go back to Clarence Thomas and blame Joe Biden? I mean Democrats had a majority and yet Thomas was confirmed. There is no Joe Biden smear campaign going on now because the right isn't afraid of Biden, but they will smear him if he moves to the front of the pack.

Why not cry over Gore conceding the presidency when history shows us he clearly won, should have been president. That debacle cost us SC justices.

All of the above could not happen without the help of the corporate media. Democrats always are hampered by the M$M head wind while Repugs have the M$M tail wind. It takes a special person to take on Republicans and their corporate media helper.

I am optimistic, I can see the blue wave that the corporate media will not be able to ignore. I can see Jerry Nadler exposing Trump's tax returns. I can't imagine the tsunami of information that Mueller is going to lay on Republicans. The facts of the Mueller investigation will be too enormous for the corporate media to cover up.

I can't wait, good times are coming. Oh and fuck Dershowitz, investigate the hell out of that monster Kavanaugh.

November can't get here soon enough. Vote and by all means stay united, picking fights among ourselves is what the right wants. I saw in another thread where Joe Manchin voted with Trump 63% of the time, well guess what, maybe that's all we as Democrats can get out of WV, 37%, it's better than 0%. Keep the faith.

Varaddem

(431 posts)
69. I hope Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:20 PM
Oct 2018

Are keeping up with Baitball andWatoos. Very strong posts today. And I have a feeling she follows Shred on Twitter. I’ve always wondered why Clinton did not have The Justice Department down in Florida. Do we need the UN to oversee this election?Probably could have used them in 2004.

lsewpershad

(2,620 posts)
22. That's who they are.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:36 AM
Oct 2018

Self serving hypocrites. We shouldn't blame them if we don't have the guts to stand up to their foul shenanigans.

Firestorm49

(4,004 posts)
25. https://progressive.org/op-eds/howard-zinn-despair-supreme-court/
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:47 AM
Oct 2018

Sorry. I’m unfamiliar with how to move some of these things around, but if this opens, it will explain much of the effect of the Supreme Court over the years.

BadgerMom

(2,766 posts)
27. "No more Mr. Nice Guy!"
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:50 AM
Oct 2018

I think that’s the motto we should adopt going forward. We don’t need to bend over backwards to be civil. We’ve been patient long enough. My patience has worn out.

anarch

(6,535 posts)
28. "for the good of the country" as in "don't do this, or riots will happen; profits will be at risk"
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:50 AM
Oct 2018

Same with disclosing anything about the Russia investigation, I think. "Let's just move on...if people knew the truth, everything would fall apart...."

Just whitewashing over horrifying shit to keep up the façade of civilization; at this point they have such a stranglehold on the levers of power, and such an unshakeable, brainwashed base, that they can be more open about the snowjobbing; and of course there'll be some fresh outrage in a day or two that will attract people's attention away from Rapey Bart. It's all just part of the program....


(until we collectively do actually change the program...for the actual good of the country)

 

elmac

(4,642 posts)
29. I hope all the party leaders have learned a very important lesson
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:52 AM
Oct 2018

never, ever play nice with fascists and you should never, ever vote for anything that makes them look good, including government funding!

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
32. This is why McConnell/Trump are
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:58 AM
Oct 2018

...not at all intimated by our activation today. They do not perceive us as fighters or as much to fear.

Apart from gerrymandering, voter suppression, media cover-up---the GOP is simply not afraid of of us. We are seen as too polite to be fierce. One of the effects of this is that the vast middle doesn't even know what Dems stand for.

Tact and reasoned reaching out will not combat the power of a demagogue and his corporate thugs.

Scubamatt

(33 posts)
41. Completely Agree
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:34 PM
Oct 2018

When you are a kid, you learn really quickly that you have to stand up to a bully. You can’t reason with a bully, you can’t appeal to their better nature, you can’t take the “high road.” They are - to use the observation of a very wise woman - deplorable. The only thing these people understand - or respect/fear- is power. Look how 45 just ridiculed Al Franken for stepping down instead of fighting. (And didn’t Susan Collins insist that Al step down on the basis of a mere allegation? Hmmmmm . . . ). Until our side learns to fight, nothing is going to change. We don’t have to rule like bullys, but we better be prepared to fight fire with fire. That’s why Avenatti was getting so much traction until everybody turned on him.

JudyM

(29,122 posts)
38. Will never forget Reid saying he didn't believe McConnell's assertion that GOP's #1 job was to block
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:29 PM
Oct 2018

everything Obama/make him a 1-term president. And what we lost as a result.

The rules of the game were changing right under our noses and, for not reacting with intelligence and energy we are now way under water.

Time to put it all out there, catch up to the gerrymandering, voter roll purging, election machine hacking, publicly lying liars.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
43. There is a crying need for Democrats to go "full Avenatti."
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:38 PM
Oct 2018

Not that I necessarily endorse him as a candidate, but he’s been the ONE person who’s been battling Trump and knocking him back on his heels.

Avenatti is outspoken and fearless. Democrats need a strong dose of this brand of boldness. Some positive flashes were on display recently by Cory Booker and Kamala Harris.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
61. The sad truth is that it's going to take a pit bull to defeat Trump.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:39 PM
Oct 2018

We need a candidate who isn't afraid to go straight for the throat. Who will meet Trump blow for blow.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
62. It's a fact. The Democratic candidate has to go straight at him and unload.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 01:44 PM
Oct 2018

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

But I agree, as distasteful as it is, playing nice and polite with that fat bastard will only gain a consolation prize.

KPN

(15,587 posts)
47. We are fooling ourselves if we think winning in chamber
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:47 PM
Oct 2018

this fall and the WH will fix this. Elections and votes are important, but these people are out to bury any opposition — forever or at least their lifetimes. This will get far worse rather than better if we do not realize this and pursue not only electoral victories but accountability for those who seek to destroy democracy — real accountability.

dflprincess

(28,057 posts)
48. Every time we're told to let something go
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 12:56 PM
Oct 2018

Last edited Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:47 PM - Edit history (1)

"For the good of the country" you can be sure it's for the good of the status quo and the powers that be.

Never really investigsting JFK's murder, Nixon's pardon, the 2000 election, ignoring election fraud..

rurallib

(62,346 posts)
65. yes yes YES
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 02:49 PM
Oct 2018

been telling everybody from the time it happened that was a very bad thing. It sent a signal to future leaders that they could do what they wanted and get away with it!

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
77. Exactly!
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:35 PM
Oct 2018

The triumph of Watergate that held a criminal president and his merry band of miscreants accountable was IMMEDIATELY undercut by that pardon. Every time I hear the clip of Ford piously intoning, "Our long national nightmare is over" I want to vomit. It was just getting started.

robbob

(3,514 posts)
95. Yes, glad you mentioned this
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 09:08 PM
Oct 2018

Also Reagan and Iran/Contra, not to mention the blood bath that was US foreign policy in Central America.

CrispyQ

(36,231 posts)
68. Careful. You will be called a defeatist.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:16 PM
Oct 2018

I hope the younger generation of dems realizes that the rules have changed & the stakes couldn't be higher. We are not dealing with basically decent people who hold different views. We are dealing with ruthless thugs who will stop at nothing to gain all the power & all the wealth. Even as we stand on an ecological brink.

TryLogic

(1,721 posts)
71. For the good of the country?
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:36 PM
Oct 2018

I wondered why Gore gave up so easily.
I wondered why Cheney and company skated free.
I have wondered and wondered why reports of election irregularities in places like Ohio have been ignored.
I wondered why Obama let McConnell stop him from declaring the Russian involvement in 2016 election.
For the good of the country??

The results have not exactly been good.

I guess it will be up to we the people.

SunSeeker

(51,378 posts)
97. Kavanaugh was part of the Brooks Brothers assault that shut down the voting in 2000.
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:14 PM
Oct 2018


Kavanaugh's Forrest Gump-like encounters included representing Texas Gov. George W. Bush in the court case that ended the Florida recount in the 2000 presidential election.
https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/brett-kavanaugh-florida-ties-elian-2000-vote-recount-terri-schiavo/KW4h9QMoAZd7mogcLv7AdP/

Dude definitely knew how to shout and still does, with much success. But when women shout, they are a called hysterical or a "vicious mob."


LenaBaby61

(6,965 posts)
102. Now you're beginning to hear the drumbeat of whining from thuglicans of ....
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 11:27 PM
Oct 2018

Democrats say they're going to do a lot of investigations if they win the House, wasting money. And of course, the corporate media will also asking why so many investigations?

IF Dems don't do all of the investigating they feel big enough to got damn do ....

Fuck the so-called but never has been LIBERAL which is really corporate media. Dems need to investigate until the world looks level. Investigate that punk ass Nunes, re-rack the tRump/russia investigation that he stalled in the Congress. Look into the Kavanaugh cover-up, Interview FBI head Wray about the curtailed scope of that sham investigation. Let the Financial Services Committee look into toilet-paper-on-my-shoe-in-chief's financial records and into whoever ELSE needs investigating. As Maxine Waters says, Dems can chew gum, investigate and govern at the same damn time. thuglicans spent a shit ton investigating Hillary/Benghazi and that was a GIANT nothing muffin.

One thing: Dems have to do if they're to investigate is STAY ON MESSAGE AND HAVE AN ACTUAL MESSAGE.

Amaryllis

(9,523 posts)
92. You forgot telling Kerry not to investigate 2004 when Ken Blackwell helped them steal Ohio for Bush
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 08:04 PM
Oct 2018

and gave them the election.

rwsanders

(2,585 posts)
99. IMO, you are putting this way too mildly...
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:33 PM
Oct 2018

The rule of law in this country is no longer in effect. Rule will simply be by force of arms.
Only drastic measures will work. Doesn't have to be violent, but it has to be extreme: i.e. boycotts, strikes, etc.

brooklynite

(93,878 posts)
100. Of course, if Gore had won any of 10 States that Clinton won, Florida would have been meaningless
Sun Oct 7, 2018, 10:36 PM
Oct 2018

Gore was a great VP but a lousy Presidential candidate. No point dwelling in the past.

EndGOPPropaganda

(1,117 posts)
105. YES!!! F THAT!!!!
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 12:14 AM
Oct 2018

And you forgot Nixon and Ford. Were there truly no state crimes.

One of Obama's biggest mistakes was to avoid investigating torture.


We are going to f'ing investigate Kavanaugh.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
107. Which was utter garbage I would add.
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 01:12 AM
Oct 2018

The country was able to endure a much nastier post-election crisis in 1876, than what it would have been in 2000.

We now know Al won Florida. Our democratic process was usurped by a right wing dominated Supreme Court in 2000. Bush v Gore was the beginning of SCOTUS illegitimacy.

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
108. Accountability for crimes HAD BETTER be on the table when we take back power.
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 01:48 AM
Oct 2018

We need to put some of these dirtbag traitors in the docket.

As for me, I will definitely be pressuring my Representative and Senators toward some accountability for Trump and his criminal administration.

PandoraAwakened

(905 posts)
109. Recognizing & Combatting "Tropes"
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 04:58 AM
Oct 2018

A "trope" is a common (and usually overused) theme or device employed in written and spoken language. Its purpose in the context of politics is to persuade, distract, and/or obfuscate from truth.

Kudos to the OP for bringing up one of the most egregious tropes of modern American political history: "Move on for the good of the country," which inevitably translates into a cornucopia of INACTION, including don't investigate, don't legislate, don't think, talk, or write about _____________ (see other replies to this post for several excellent historical examples with which you can fill-in-the blank).

I have heard it bemoaned for decades that Democrats are bad at messaging and I've unfortunately seen this to be too often true. I think one of the main reasons for this is a failure to understand language devices, such as tropes. This is both a failure to recognize when a trope is being used to frame the narrative and a failure in understanding how to combat a trope to reframe the narrative.

If you are still confused as to what I am talking about relative to the topic of this thread, let me give you a different example that should help bring this into sharp focus: There are two Republican tropes used after every mass shooting to ward off gun legislation and, indeed, to shut down all future discussion of such: The first is the "thoughts and prayers" trope, inevitably followed by the "now is not the time" trope (a variation of the "don't investigate for the good of the country" trope). Now do you understand? These are simply disingenuous rhetorical devices employed to make everyone look away. It's really that simple, and as evidenced over and over again, such tropes are highly effective.

So, how do you counter tropes? Well, thankfully, Shakespeare, one of history's greatest manipulators of the English language, provides a very clear blueprint for taking down a trope: You ridicule the hypocrisy of the trope publicly, loudly, mercilessly, unceasingly, and without apology until the trope itself is the object of derision, laughter, and scorn.

The most recent, modern example of how this works can be seen in how students nationwide have employed the "We call BS" campaign against all tropes that uphold and sustain gun violence. As evidence of the effectiveness of calling a trope onto the carpet, note that newsrooms everywhere have tapped down on their anchors' use of the "thoughts and prayers" trope lest they become memes and objects of derision themselves across the social media landscape.

So, while I can see how well-intentioned people might easily fall for the fake emotional appeal to not investigate this or that "for the good of the country," once you come to understand this for the trope that it is, one that even Shakespeare heartily mocked repeatedly, then it becomes your duty to educate and enlighten fellow Democrats about this ploy.

If a Dem is playing along with the "just move on" trope, call out the trope for what it is (and you can do this without ever mentioning the name of the hapless Dem). Make fun of and laugh at the hypocrisy of the trope repeatedly and mercilessly until they stop letting others who are just a little more clever about the use of rhetorical devices continue to play them for fools.

At that, to those who still wish to see no evil, hear no evil "for the good of the country," I CALL BS! Let the investigations begin and MAKE AMERICA LAUGH AGAIN!


PandoraAwakened

(905 posts)
111. Still a newbie here
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 06:36 AM
Oct 2018

Hi! I'm new here and apparently I need to provide more commentary to other posts I find insightful before I can post my own thread (which, honestly, I haven't even looked up how to do yet).

Anyway, I know I could probably just post some short replies elsewhere to meet the qualifying level, but that would betray who I am at heart and violate what I consider to be a level of integrity.

Thank you for reading my post and I look forward to reading more of yours (once I figure out how to look for specific users, LOL!).

Baitball Blogger

(46,576 posts)
116. Do you mind if I bring attention to your post?
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 10:10 AM
Oct 2018

We're all learning from each other on this site and you have a very insightful post.

PandoraAwakened

(905 posts)
120. No problem, please share as necessary
Tue Oct 9, 2018, 01:26 AM
Oct 2018

I saw another discussion yesterday that actually deals with the same idea of tropes (specifically the "Angry Mob" trope), but I didn't see anybody identifying it for the trope that it is and providing an educational discussion of it. Some persons' replies showed that they intuitively understood that you need to lean into the trope, even if they weren't able to express exactly why this is the correct way to retake the narrative. But others were calling for a "just ignore it" approach, clearly indicating that they don't yet possess an effective understanding of the topic.

I wanted to contribute to the "Angry Mob" discussion as well, but have not yet found the time to put together the proper information. There's actually a lot of good background info. on the psychology of that one as it is a commonly used trope for certain TV/film genres.

Ohioboy

(3,223 posts)
112. Totally agree
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 09:04 AM
Oct 2018

The right doesn't want us to investigate Kavanaugh, but they want to investigate how his accuser's letter got to the public.
Vote 'em out!

Baitball Blogger

(46,576 posts)
115. Right, and we are always playing defense with them because we allow
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 10:04 AM
Oct 2018

them to throw whatever garbage their supporters want to hear without challenging them.

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