"Repeal and Replace ICE" not "Abolish Ice". Messaging is paramount.

[flibbitygiblets]

Drumph is already predicting that the "Abolish ICE" message will cost Democrats in November, and that idiot is good at one thing--reading other idiots.

PLEASE for God's sake, let's use their messaging tactics against them.

Repeal and Replace ICE!

(and PS, just like the R's with Obamacare...the plan is to do the repealing right away and worry about the replacing later)

[Bradshaw3]

1. Good idea

[blogslut]

2. Fuck that.

Abolish ICE

[mr_lebowski]

3. TOTALLY AGREE ... "Abolish ICE" is a total fucking loser ... PERIOD.

R&R is much better but honestly ... I'd rather us not make ICE a big part of the platform at all.

Nobody wants an 'open border', so let's not do anything more that suggests in any way that Dems ... are FOR having one.

[Cal Carpenter]

8. Have you ever read anything the guy in your avatar has said about borders

and boundaries and the existence of the state in general?

Just curious.

[mr_lebowski]

10. I'm not talking about what *I* believe, actually ... I'd abolish 'States' if it was up to me ...

I'm saying the prevailing attitude of this country is like 99% of people don't favor 'open borders' if you ask them.

'Abolish ICE' is EASILY manipulated into 'Supporting Open Borders', esp. by Trump with his Bully Pulpit.

Ergo, this is NOT a political winner, IMHO.

[Cal Carpenter]

12. I guess I just need to get more comfortable with the idea

that so many people seem to be able to separate their 'beliefs' from their actions of support of what is currently a 'political winner' and which totally contradicts those 'beliefs'.

I'm not just speaking about ICE or borders here, but generally.... It's just that I can't fathom how anything other than the status quo can become a 'political winner' if more people don't hold firm on what they believe is right, and fight to drag the politicians kicking and screaming into a better world... If one's beliefs are simply nominal and are never applied to the real world, if people start from a position of nearly absolute compromise, then what's the point? If the 'political winning' is more important than the actual human conditions created by policy, I'm just not sure I grasp what the point is. As though politics is just a game to win rather than the very thing that the determines the conditions in which real people live every day.

Sigh.

I think I need to spend less time reading DU. I just don't see this type of equivocating elsewhere. And it is equivocating, it isn't tactical pragmatism (like Chomsky might advocate) or anything principled. It is so disheartening.

[mr_lebowski]

13. I think of it as 'taking what you can get when you can get it' and 'being realistic' ...

Here's the thing 'abolishing ICE' in no way accomplishes what I'd personally prefer, which is a 'world without borders' ... in fact I absolutely know there's ZERO chance of that ever happening, so, I'm not going to waste my time fighting for it, though I'll bring it up in conversation, I know it's a non-starter.

Hell, I think pot and opioids and amphetamines and cocaine and lsd and shrooms and ecstasy should also be 'legal' ... but I'm not going to take to the streets for that cause unless I have a lot of support for it.

I don't actually give a shit whether or not 'there is an Immigration and Customs Enforcement Branch in our government'. In fact, I think we SHOULD have one. THE PROBLEM ... is their harsh and fucked up TACTICS. It's 'what they're being told/allowed to do', not 'them', per se.

I think it's a far better message to focus on 'how poorly asylum seekers are being treated by our government' ... than 'ICE'. Esp. because as I said, way too many people don't know the diff between ICE and the Border Patrol.

We shout 'Abolish ICE!' ... and then dumpie goes "LOOK DEMS WANT OPEN BORDERS!!!" and WAAAAAAAY too many people are going to believe him. FACT. Sucks, but fact.

Politically, it's a BAD SLOGAN.

IMHO, of course.

[oasis]

4. Good. Need to counter Trump's "Democrats are for open borders" bs.

[AlexSFCA]

5. abolish ICE is a loser

when we propose something like that we should propose a better solution. We are giving trumpists a powerful weapon against us in November. This reads like Democratic Party is a party against immigration enforcement with no alternative solution. The law is that every person whose presence in the US is unauthorized is subject to deportation unless the law changes (e.g. immigration reform). None of my liberal lifelong democrats in SF support this, you can only imagine people in midwest and swing districts. Way to alienate independents from our party. We have to be more strategic and politically smart not being idealists and purists. Not to mention balck voters are strongly against illigal immigration, way to alienate our reliable base. Sometimes I feel Gilibrand is a secret republican.

[oasis]

9. +1

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. Fuck no. Their words are garbage. Abolish ICE.

[Cal Carpenter]

7. Activists have been using that phrase for quite some time

Before Trump made things so obviously bad, before mainstream Dems got on the bandwagon.

Maybe the Dem Party or elected politicians shouldn't or won't use that exact message, but it is clear from images from the rallies and marches that plenty of people are deliberately choosing that phrase and I'm not sure who you are to tell them to stop...

Sorta reminds me of the anti-war movement 15 years ago, when we were told by mainstream and Dem Party groups to stop bringing anti-racism to the protests because it was a separate issue and made the 'message' confusing. I'd like to think that many of those same people today realize that racism is at the foundation of the US wars and proxy wars in places where POC live and wouldn't be so offended by it, but who knows....

Not sure if this is a 'how far we've come' moment, or a 'the more things change, the more they stay the same' one...

[lame54]

11. Replace them with ICE cream trucks