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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe good that came out of FDR does not out weigh the bad
We see the same today. Japanese internment camps was a stain on him. A stain on this nation. We can see the same today. I haven't stopped crying for 4 days.
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sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."
- FDR
Compare FDR to any Republican, especially modern Republicans who seek to dehumanize kids to get votes for billionaires.
We have a choice: Team Democrat, including FDR, or team Republican. I’m on Team Democrat.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)very strongly supported FDR through all four of his presidencies. They're not here to swat these insults down and to point out that the New Deal and what came after was their achievement and their legacy to America every bit as much as it is anyone else's.
They knew what they were doing, and they knew the New Deal could not have happened without them. They knew their efforts had nothing to do with interning the Japanese.
They understood that the rabidly bigoted, conservative "Southern Democrat" bloc did. And they understood its role in limiting the benefits they and other progressives were able to win for themselves. But they absolutely also knew their victories were far greater than these insidious, lying, right-wing themes sprouting up everywhere claim.
Because they were the first generation to live them. They and the world didn't just see black men trained and doing well in many tens of thousands of well paid New Deal positions but even promoted to authority over white men.
And that was just the beginning.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,161 posts)Even Lincoln suspended habeaus corpus, which I could not see going over very well today.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Hekate
(90,617 posts)
Hekate
(90,617 posts)Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch.
brush
(53,759 posts)trying to undo FDR's New Deal programs since they were passed.
The programs created the middle class. A giant flaw was that AAs were excluded from many of the benefits.
LBJ's Great Society programs corrected much of that but LBJ is blamed for Vietnam so no president passes purity tests, not even O.
But now with trump rampaging is not the time to tear down FDR.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)That's what this is about. This insidious theme is everywhere googling related terms takes anyone, and of course comes to everyone who clicks on the wrong headline.
Every minority voter who stays home on November 6 is a victory for the white nationalists.
peggysue2
(10,826 posts)This is another spin into whataboutism and coalition division tactics.
It might have been difficult or confusing to spot and name the tactics in 2016 but they're neon-lit this time around.
The troll army is swarming. Let us not be distracted nor divided. Lock shields and keep moving forward to November.
That's how we fight. That's how we win.
thbobby
(1,474 posts)First, you are correct in that internment camps were a stain on our nation and him. But, as far as I know, internment camps were not forbidden to Red Cross and hidden from the public. Families did not routinely have their children stolen from them. In fact, I am not aware of any children being forcibly separated from their families, but I may be mistaken on this. Finally, it was a time of war. But, your point is valid in that internment camps were a stain on all of America, including FDR.
lame54
(35,277 posts)Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)Most were US born citizens of Japanese descent. My point is, it will never be forgotten nor should it
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)It is not intended to condemn, but rather to be honest about history.
As for Trump, he has displayed no redeeming qualities that will ever compensate for the harm he has done as leader of the USA.
His 'good' column is empty.
He has only destruction to leave to history
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)Unlike Trump FDR has a lot of qualities. Trump has NONE.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)But in no way does it negate the good that came out of FDR's time. I wonder how many people since then until now did not spend old age in abject poverty thanks to Social Security for instance.
One need not dismiss the good in order to remember and work to avoid repeating the bad.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)
Bradshaw3
(7,495 posts)The internments were a stain but no, they do NOT outweigh all the good FDR did. It's ahistroical and simplistic to say it does.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)our economy and I believe we would have lost the Republic and maybe ended up fascist, that doesn't change the fact that what happened to the Japanese was wrong and like you said a stain on America...but I alway consider the times...Roosevelt was very advanced for a man of his times. He should not be worshipped by Dem...it was almost 100 years ago, and we need to move on to find our own solutions. Pres. Barack Obama gave us healthcare and saved the economy.
hlthe2b
(102,192 posts)as confirmed in every damned historian or political scientist survey each year for decades. Those who believe otherwise have NOT read nor studied his record, IMO.
Perspective is hard, but none of our Presidents is infallible.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)https://www.ozy.com/the-huddle/which-leader-snubbed-jesse-owens-hint-it-wasnt-hitler/71998
Franklin Delano Roosevelt, leader of a major political party with deep roots in racism, couldn’t bring himself to utter a word of support, which may have been a factor in Owens’s decision to campaign for Republican Alf Landon in the 1936 presidential election. FDR invited all the white US Olympians to the White House, but not Jesse.
“It all goes so fast, and character makes the difference when it’s close,” Owens once said about athletic competition. He could have taught FDR a few lessons in character, but the president never gave him the chance. Owens wouldn’t be invited to the White House for almost 20 years — not until Dwight Eisenhower named him “Ambassador of Sports” in 1955.
Sid
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)If Blacks benefitted from his policies, them benefitting was an afterthought. On a per capital basis, Blacks were wholly ignored, unless they were needed to fill critical labor gaps as the country geared up for war. Truman was the first democratic President to do meaningful things for Blacks, LBJ was the most effective of all.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)that this statement is unfair to FDR, mixed as his legacy with regard to African Americans is...and I can also be a real crtic of FDR onn these grounds as well.
The bottom line on the New Deal if that if FDR had not compromised with the Southern Democrats like Theodore Bilbo, the New Deal would not have passed...or would have been dismantled.
EDIT- Normally I don't like to link to my DK diaries over here on DU but I made claim and I need to back it up.
Given that Mr. Willkie’s civil rights platform was more liberal than President Roosevelt’s, how did FDR maintain his grip on the black vote? As Nancy Weiss, author of Farewell to the Party of Lincoln: Black Politics in the Age of FDR asks:
How could a Democratic President who sidestepped on antilynching legislation, seemed outwardly unperturbed about disenfranchisement and segregation, and presided over relief programs rife with discrimination, win an overwhelming majority of black votes and, in so doing, transform the political habits of black Americans for decades to come?
Farewell to the Party of Lincoln p. 209
Weiss’ superbly documented study of black politics in The New Deal era shows that while black people understood that they were receiving the short end of the economic, racial, and political stick from President Roosevelt, “even the limited racial recognition of the New Deal seemed to many black Americans to be a token of hope” (Weiss 210-11). Also, given the formation of what came to be called The Black Cabinet, African Americans began to see and take note of black participation in national affairs. The (limited) economic benefits that blacks received from The New Deal plus a more active and visible involvement in the national government led to increased black voter registration and participation in the North, especially in the Northern cities and especially among young African Americans (Weiss 228-29).
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)She often said that if it weren’t for Jesus Christ and FDR, she and her children would never have survived the Depression.
Sorry, but I gotta go with her on this one.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)
handmade34
(22,756 posts)first FDR
now Trump family (written by Guthrie)
Trek4Truth
(515 posts)
kentuck
(111,071 posts)
appalachiablue
(41,113 posts)Can the nation ever recover. Give me a fugging break.
JI7
(89,244 posts)
Cha
(297,029 posts)FDR did for our Country.. Not by a long shot, Tavarious.
UTUSN
(70,671 posts)“Fluctuations of historic judgment are the lot of great men, and Roosevelt will not escape it … But if history has its claim, so has the present. For it has been wisely said that if the judgment of the time must be corrected by that of posterity, it is no less true that the judgment of posterity must be corrected by that of the time.”
- Felix Frankfurter
former9thward
(31,963 posts)The Justice Frankfurter who voted to intern the Japanese!
UTUSN
(70,671 posts)Probably my ignorance of his having voted for it will be just as damning on me in your eyes (again). S'long (again).
betsuni
(25,447 posts)Apparently being a 21st century Democrat is yucky. Something about Wall Street? Oligarchs?
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)Among self-described "FDR Democrats" that I've had a chance to talk with, it is mostly about economics, and while they might not use these words, they are essentially describing a position that involves a strong commitment to social democracy, in contrast to a number of contemporary Democrats who they believe have pursued policies that are more in line with the principles of neoliberalism and the Washington Consensus.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)FDR was a great President for white people. Not so much for me.
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)I am still learning about various ways racism was baked into the New Deal and other programs. "The Color of Law" (a book I read within the last year) was a real eye-opener.
But I'm not sure your reply to me has anything to do with my attempt to provide an answer to betsuni's question.
brush
(53,759 posts)in that respect than FDR but we kinda need to work to destroy trump and the racist repugs now.
Don't you agree?
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)and Yes Trump is worse. What Trump is doing right now with immigrants reminded me of the stain on FDR. I don't think it should be forgotten. History repeats. We need to remember those times and these.
tenderfoot
(8,425 posts)But not the Third Reich....
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)...does that outweigh the good, or does LBJ’s good outweigh his bad because attacking LBJ wasn’t the goal of the OP?
Not a lot of consistency to this thread.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)That’s insane.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)benefits that were denied based on race...no doubt Roosevelt helped everyone...but the Black man was not intended to benefit...can't judge Roosevelt during this time as it truly was a different era...it is unfair This is why though I admire Roosevelt, I don't believe his policies offer us much for today's issues. And the idea that we need to move back almost 100 years is madness. We can admire the policies from a different time and keep the good ones (Social Security), but we need to move into the future with modern ideas that will solve our current problems.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)brush
(53,759 posts)FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)And just agreed with your own “better than” argument without any need for critiquing LBJ for the degree of systemic racism his Great Society policies included. At once positive steps forward AND imbued with systemic racism, this complexity is, as with LBJ’s accomplishments on other issues regarding racial justice in the US, part of the historical reality.
Cheers!
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)show as all wars are.
msongs
(67,381 posts)Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)because of what they looked like!!!!
uponit7771
(90,329 posts)Exotica
(1,461 posts)You apparently have a dodgy sense of grand sweep political balance weighing. FDR's cock-ups are vastly outweighed by his positives.
sarisataka
(18,554 posts)And impeached him then apologized to Japan for the racist, provocative trade embargos imposed by his regime
marble falls
(57,063 posts)
Bucky
(53,986 posts)just FYI. 12 yrs & 1 month tbp.
betsuni
(25,447 posts)Trump said, "We've cut more regulations in a year and a quarter than any administration, whether it's four years, eight years, or, in one case, 16 years."
I don't pay attention to what he says normally, only to what he does. Otherwise I'd go mad
marble falls
(57,063 posts)
madaboutharry
(40,200 posts)A basic fact about FDR: He was a racist and an anti-semite.
Not only did he intern Japanese-Americans, he also refused entry of Jews fleeing Nazi Europe. He sent them back to their deaths.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)and him essentially writing Blacks and American Indians out of New Deal benefits is papered over by those that wax on about how great he was. He was basically a politician that did what got him elected, White racists had infinitely more power at the voting booth than Blacks and American Indians.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)why did nearly 70% of blacks vote for hin in his last three runs for the preesidency....2/3 of blacks did vote for Hoover.
FDR was no LBJ when it came to civil rights but he wasn't Woodrow Wilson either.
trof
(54,256 posts)Grab a hankie and dry up.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt is one of the best things that ever happened to this country.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But if you ask black folk who were alive when Roosevelt was president, I’m sure the vast majority of them would give a very different view than the OP.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)That February, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, empowering DeWitt to issue orders emptying parts of California, Oregon, Washington and Arizona of issei—immigrants from Japan, who were precluded from U.S. citizenship by law—and nisei, their children, who were U.S. citizens by birth. Photographers for the War Relocation Authority were on hand as they were forced to leave their houses, shops, farms, fishing boats. For months they stayed at “assembly centers,” living in racetrack barns or on fairgrounds. Then they were shipped to ten “relocation centers,” primitive camps built in the remote landscapes of the interior West and Arkansas. The regime was penal: armed guards, barbed wire, roll call. Years later, internees would recollect the cold, the heat, the wind, the dust—and the isolation. There was no wholesale incarceration of U.S. residents who traced their ancestry to Germany or Italy, America’s other enemies.
[link:https://www.archives.gov/files/research/japanese-americans/justice-denied/chapter-1.pdf| Naturalization
Act of 1790]
Which said only white people could become citizens, which later became instrumental in denying Japanese living in America for most of their life citizenship, and not just the Japanese either.
Other sources.
http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/primarysourcesets/internment/pdf/teacher_guide.pdf
https://www.nps.gov/manz/learn/historyculture/japanese-americans-at-manzanar.htm
https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/japanese-relocation
A person can both be appalled by our past and by what is happening now. I'll never defend FDR's action. Never. Under any circumstances for anyone. Not happening. Because it is indefensible.
You can't use the excuse that it was the "times" because if you excuse the incarceration and detention of Japanese/Japanese-Americans living in America then you can use the excuse that it was the "times" for any other horrible-bad action America committed - like slavery, Jim Crow, torture, etc..
Saying it was "the times" is bullshit. Complete bullshit. Wrong is wrong regardless of what "time" we are living in at the moment. Slavery is never right. Jim Crow was never right. Torture is never right. Not matter the "times".
Trump is wrong. Horribly wrong. Trump has never been right and never will be.
FDR was a far better person than Trump will ever be. But you can't deny he was wrong to intern people - both citizens and people who were denied citizenship out of racism - and only racism.
It's part of American history - interning people, as is taking children away from people of color. (the children of Native peoples - ripped their children away - and gave them to white people)
You want to get angry? Get angry over that. That it is a part of our history and it keeps happening. In one form or another, it keeps happening. Doesn't matter that it doesn't happen year after year - once was too much.
Get mad over that. It keeps happening
But don't hand me some bullshit excuse like it was "the times".
It ain't never been the time to do any of that shit.
There is no decent excuse for any of it. Don't ever pretend there is one.
.
madaboutharry
(40,200 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)And lacks the understanding of the pressure of the time...
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)So klansmen lynching a Black was ok, because during that time, most Whites were virulent racists and there was pressure to conform. What is right has no fucking times, it is what is right, eternally.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Doesn't mean we should ignore or forget the bad stuff, with any president or politician.
KPN
(15,641 posts)buy that. I understand your grievance and it is not without legitimacy. But equating Trump with FDR because “bad ... outweighs good” is way off base. You give zero consideration to context of the times in doing so. Context doesn’t condone or mitigate the internment camps by any stretch. I get and appreciate that. But context is not unimportant or irrelevant in comparing the two people.
Another piece of context: he was married to Eleanor Roosevelt.
Response to KPN (Reply #35)
Post removed
thucythucy
(8,043 posts)set by Congress, in legislation passed in the 1920s during the height of the eugenics anti-immigrant craze? FDR didn't have unilateral authority to change the immigration laws, sad to say.
As far as being a womanizer, he had one affair, with one woman, during the course of his marriage. Maybe not commendable, but certainly not in the same league as Donald "grab them by the pussy" "I like to watch women piss" "pay off that porn star" Trump.
Also, the Nazi scientists who came to the US came AFTER the war, after FDR's death. The ones who came before and during the war were either Jewish--like Albert Einstein, or anti-Nazi and antifascist, like Fermi. That's why they agreed to help build the atomic bomb--because they WEREN'T Nazis.
Not that I condone the imprisonment of Japanese Americans, just because of their ancestry. But you know, don't you, that George Takei, who was interned as a child, a few days ago wrote an editorial saying what Trump is doing is worse? In it he said that at least in the internment camps children weren't separated from their parents.
I'm not sure how you "weigh" the good against the bad. On the bad side, the unjust imprisonment for several years of tens of thousands of innocent people. Very bad indeed. On the good side--saving our democracy from fascism, both domestic and foreign, bringing the country out of the Depression, defeating the Nazis and preventing the probable extermination of every Jew on the planet, and the actual enslavement of anybody who wasn't either "pure Aryan" or--as Hitler called the Japanese -"honorary Aryans." Also Social Security, which has saved and prolonged the lives of millions of people. Also the founding of the United Nations, the drafting of the Declaration of Human Rights (written largely by Eleanor), the Atlantic Charter...
On the whole, I'm pretty confident his presidency was better, and will long be remembered as being better, than any of the possible alternatives.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)thucythucy
(8,043 posts)Actually, many were but some weren't. Some had immigrated from Japan and become citizens, and many had been born here.
But that's it?
I post disputing most everything you said, and you come back with an obvious fact I never disputed?
All right then.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)tenderfoot
(8,425 posts)Consider it another lesson in English.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)
Lady_Chat
(561 posts)Institute for Rehabilitation for children suffering the effects of polio. He certainly did more good for this country than bad. Trump, besides separating families, wants to cut funding for the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), what a difference. Along with FDR came Eleanor...with Trump we got Melania, plagiarizing Michele Obama, Her I don't care coat, and in 2016 at the Debates following her husband's "pussy grabbing" tape, her showing up with what is known in the fashion industry as "the pussy blouse". Give me FDR and Eleanor any day.
thucythucy
(8,043 posts)Melania has given us "Be best."
I rest my case.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)and Indian Americans and Japanese Anericans who fought then COULD NOT! FDR was blind to the issues of racial injustice in America, or he was a racist who approved of it all.
thucythucy
(8,043 posts)in America." He met with African American leaders, and in a famous statement told them, "I agree with everything you said. Now go out and make me do it." In other words, he couldn't transform American society and undo several hundred years of racial oppression all by himself.
He did establish the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and pushed for the integration of war industries (which led to the mass migration of African Americans from the rural south to industrial centers like Chicago and Detroit). It wasn't FDR keeping African Americans out of many workplaces--it was segregated unions and white workers who did that. In fact, it wasn't until the passage of civil rights legislation in the 1950s and especially the 1960s that the federal government had ANY substantial power to end discrimination--which is why those acts needed to be passed.
And yes, German prisoners of war were allowed to go places Black Americans couldn't. But, again, FDR all on his own-some couldn't stop that. It took the Civil Rights Movement of the '50s and '60s, the assassination of JFK, the political work of LBJ and the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 to even begin to address the issues of racist discrimination. Which, as I'm sure you notice, continue to plague us today, three quarters of a century after FDR's death.
The USA isn't a monarchy or a dictatorship, not yet, anyway. To make the sort of massive changes in American society takes more than any single person, including any single president. A president can't just snap his or her fingers and change the culture on a dime. I mean shit, President Obama couldn't stop black men from being shot by white cops in Missouri. He couldn't even prevent a Harvard professor (and one of his best friends) from being harassed by the police of a mid-sized city like Cambridge. So to expect FDR to wave a magic wand and end Jim Crow is hardly realistic, as sad a fact as that is.
You're also ignoring all the work Eleanor Roosevelt did for racial justice--work that she couldn't have done without FDR's endorsement. She brought attention to the conditions of coal miners and sharecroppers, and commissioned photographers to go out and document the conditions of people in poverty, including people of color. Southern newspapers attacked her for being "an outside agitator" and she was widely referred to as a "n--r lover."
So there are reasons why conservatives and millionaires and Republicans have always hated FDR and Eleanor. But as FDR also famously said, "I welcome their hatred."
FDR was a complex man, and his record in some areas is better than others. He certainly had flaws. But he was also the most progressive president up to that time, and it's a shame to see him smeared on what is supposed to be a progressive, Democratic website.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)He was a racist. Stop excusing him. Jesse Owens won 4 gold medals and was never invited to the white house. Every white gold medalist was invited. Every one of them.
thucythucy
(8,043 posts)But FDR was a politician working in a racist system, in the context of centuries of racist oppression. I can't and won't defend everything he did or didn't do. He obviously felt he had to choose his battles. But to say the bad things he did outweigh all the good he did is absurd.
On the whole, I think his contributions toward saving the world from Nazism (which is about as racist an ideology as ever existed) outweigh his slighting of a single black athlete, sad and reprehensible as that incident was. You don't agree? You'd be happier, and you think the world would be a better place, if FDR had welcomed Jesse Owens to the White House, but allowed Hitler to defeat Britain and thus win the war?
BTW, Eleanor Roosevelt insisted that African American singer Marian Anderson be allowed to sing at the Lincoln Memorial in 1939—the first Black artist ever to do so—and over the strenuous, even violent objections of white racists. Eleanor Roosevelt resigned her membership in the Daughters of the American Revolution because of their objection to Anderson singing at an event they sponsored. FDR obviously supported her in this. Does that sound like a racist to you?
So like I say, he decided for political reasons, for good or ill, to fight some battles and not others.
Frederick Douglas, writing about Lincoln after his assassination, said that judging Lincoln "on the pure abolitionist ground" you'd find him slow, compromising, tepid. But judging him in the context of his times, and in light of how he had to function as a politician, he was fast, daring, and a true leader (I'm paraphrasing). I'd say the same about FDR.
Not consistently great. But a great man, nonetheless.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I hope that I never come across a pretzel that is as twisted up as you are twisting yourself to justify FDR. In one post you wrote that he took bold PUBLIC action in support of Black people. Now in this post, you are saying that he didn't invite the Black sprinter, the greatest of all time, to the White House because FDR operated in a racist culture. Which is it, did he publicly push for racial equality or did he genuflect to racists and maybe was a racist himself? Don't you think that inviting the guy who won the most gold medals in the 36 Olympics and humiliated Hitler to Hitler's face, would have been an enormous statement in favor of racial equality? But FDR chose not to do that, NOR to meet privately with that great man. Why is that?
BTW, I really don't like pretzels at all (along with biscuits and scones), just could not resist using that analogy.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)biscuits and scones.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Strange, but true. My family loved biscuits when I was growing up, fortunately I didn't starve because my Mom always fixed bread items that I would eat.
betsuni
(25,447 posts)He had an end-of-the-day ritual of enjoying cocktails and smoked clams. Eleanor never touched booze and thought the expense of canned clams during the Depression unseemly (elitist? tone deaf?). They often ate meals separately.
thucythucy
(8,043 posts)Like Lincoln, JFK, LBJ, Clinton and Obama, there were times FDR took relatively bold public and not so public stands for equality, and times when for reasons personal or political he waffled, backtracked, or copped out. He was a politician, who accomplished amazing things, but also fell short, far short, of perfection.
I'm not "justifying" anything--as I keep saying. I'm simply disputing the OP that says that the good that FDR did does not "outweigh" the bad. I don't see how anyone--particularly any Democrat--can be at all informed and hold to such an opinion. On one side of the scale--saving the world from Hitler and Tojo and Mussolini, and preventing the extermination of the two thirds of the world's remaining Jews, and preserving the nation so that decent civil rights legislation could eventually be passed. On the other side of the scale, the horrific imprisonment of innocent Japanese Americans (who were eventually released, and reimbursed through a US Supreme Court case), and not being bold enough on race relations.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours, and I have mine. I doubt we'll settle the issue here and now.
Best wishes.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)These men were very complicated and your glib, overly-simplistic judgmentalism lacks the depth or historical understanding necessary to be taken seriously as a responsible analysis of their presidencies.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)My first US Senator fought in a segregated unit, the 442nd, and left his arm in Italy. We have come a long way since then. Still very imperfect, but a long way.
I have few heroes, and I will not name them in this abominable thread, but when I stopped being a child I realized that all of them (pardon me for the following cliches, but they convey what I mean) had feet of clay, and none of them were plaster saints. In other words they were mortals with mortal flaws.
I began to understand history and context. I began to understand how to weigh heroism, vision, intellect, and striving for the good of others -- against whatever wrongs and errors of judgment they made in an imperfect world. Maybe I change my mind; maybe I'm disappointed but don't change my mind.
My first degree was in history, and I am always happy to engage in fact-based discussions. But you are right: the OP is not in that category.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Yes. That's what makes then heroes.
It's no big deal when saints do the right thing. After all, they're saints - that's what they do.
It's much harder for mortals to do great things because they have flaws and fears and doubts and temptations and all manner of other human foibles that weigh against them. And when they do rise above their weaknesses and do heroic things, it doesn't mean their jacked up sh*t doesn't matter. But their jacked up sh*t also doesn't erase the good they've done. And applying one-dimensional, retroactive purity tests to them is a cheap and shallow way to approach historical analyses.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)
My gods, I can't believe I just got something in my eye.FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Thank you
Hekate
(90,617 posts)
John Fante
(3,479 posts)FDR was worse than Trump.
Then you can move on to Truman, Kennedy, LBJ, etc.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)Germans [not only in Germany, but very significant numbers in the U.S. the Bund etc.], isolationists, Japan, very powerful,wealthy Americans against FDR [coup supporters, see Smedley Butler et al], etc. etc.
Many 'criticisms' of FDR were not based on the fault of FDR's personal predilections, but on FDR's tremendously difficult strategic/practical political considerations. Even with all FDR's brilliance, the happenstance of Pearl Harbor was still extremely important in mobilizing public support for winning efforts in what became WWII.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Germany circa 1940-1945 and Italy were much more dangerous threats, but German Americans (many still speaking German) and Italian Americans (many still speaking Italian) were allowed to go anywhere they wanted. There is no way to justify what FDR did to the Japanese or justify his virtual exclusion of Blacks and American Indians, on a per capital basis, from the New Deal programs (those groups got something only when FDR and most of White america needed something from them).
empedocles
(15,751 posts)Adding to your arguments; the Bund organized large threatening political rallies in the US. Bund attempted to coordinate with Hitler. Blacks were deliberately excised from Social Security - [to get Social Security, and war preparation efforts through the Southern political blocs]. There where many such heavy, threatening internal political conflicts, tradeoffs and political triage - as there were in actual combat strategic and tactical decisions. US corporations made bad, even treasonous, deals with Nazi corporations [IG Farben, et al].
The DuPont, Birdseye, other 'leading families', well - financed [$60 million current dollar efforts], treasonous coup attempt against FDR were all well covered up [by Congress, conservative media, etc. - FDR could not afford to go public to save himself].
Wars are like that. Mistakes, 'lines' crossed sure. Everything justified in war, of course not. My points, were against the personal trashing of FDR, - thread critics and others, seemed to need more 'real time', larger, perspective imho.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)in the context of 2016 "FDR Democrat" was and is a dog whistle.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)The term, used by some of our MOST progressive Democrats in Congress, refers to their support of social programs like those FDR produced.
Might be blind to the racism aspect, but unless you WANT to paint them with the wrong broad brush and accuse them of what's NOT in their hearts, your characterization is just -- well, highly inaccurate at best.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,831 posts)John Fante
(3,479 posts)Quick, let's shit on Democratic presidents in an attempt to make them appear just as bad, or worse!!!
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)rockfordfile
(8,700 posts)They are not the same thing. Only thing the same is the fascism today is the same FDR fought. This some of the kind of bs that the Russians/gop supporters would try to in 2016. As for the Japanese camps it was wrong, but I glad for the world we had FDR as President at that time.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)But I bet the Japanese didn't think he was a great President. So do you think he did it to steal their wealth or just plain racism? I'm torn.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)had loved ones kidnapped and forced to work as slaves...the ones I saw were from the South-the letter were never answered...some of those people of never came back. I think Roosevelt saved this country, but the new deal was overwhelmingly for the white man and Roosevelt did win the war...but there is no doubt the internment of Japanese people and the theft of their property is a black mark on Roosevelt, Truman (who didn't return the property) and this country. That is the history. I admire Roosevelt but I am not blind to his faults...I also realize the times were different and there is good and bad in most people.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)As I said before, the OP et seq. are not an invitation to a reasoned historical assessment, but a false equivalency that boggles the mind. And bunches of people are falling for it. My my my, I wonder why.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)scoops is an evil disgusting piece of shit with no redeeming qualities and nothing like Roosevelt ...No man is perfect. Roosevelt wasn't perfect but he was nothing like Trump...who may very well be the antiChrist (only sort of joking).
John Fante
(3,479 posts)Your "history lesson" is nothing more than a weak attempt to compare Trump favorably to a highly regarded democratic POTUS in FDR. Not fooling anyone.
mythology
(9,527 posts)But also given that humanity has progressed in the last 70 years, it doesn't seem particularly relevant to try to link FDR's camps to what Trump is doing now.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)But you have to put everything on the scales as well
Black people would not be voting Dem today were it not for Franklin Roosevelt in spite of all hs flaws...and with the exception of Michelle Obama, no FLOTUS was as beloved by African Americans as Eleanor Roosevelt...
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If only DU were around at the time to ‘splain it to them.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)good Roosevelt did...but interment was bad of the Japanese and the theft of their property was evil ...I can't defend that. The times were different then so it isn't really fair to judge him based on today's standards.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Realized that politics is the art of the possible. Had he not acquiesced to the Southern, racist democrats of the time we would not have Social Security, Medicare and the entire spectrum of federal support.
According to Some few, it would have been better to have nothing then those things.
LBJ went a long way to correcting some of the flaws in the FDR legacy.
But of course some people on DU, for some reason, find it beneficial to attack a liberal president from 80 years ago. Almost like they were trying to deflect from what we have going on today.
Makes me wonder.
Give it a fucking rest.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)That we will have a high growth economy and full employment if we burn coal and do other bad stuff to the environment.
They claim that giving massive tax breaks to the rich and rich corporations will lead to a high growth economy.
They claim that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and SNAP are the problem instead of a bloated defense budget, that is many times that of our closest rival.
Following your logic, we know that everything Trump claims is wrong, even morally wrong. But we should acquiesce anyway because of the potential benefits that he claims will happen.
When FDR was pushing SS (Medicare was not done by him, neither were Blacks covered by SS), by kissing the asses of racists, that was ok? No one knew whether SS would work when it first came out, just like we can't say with 100% certainty that the bullshit Trump claims can't possibly come true (logically, years of data says that he has his head up his ass, but at least data exists to refute him, no such thing existed for FDR).
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)I acknowledge he did a lot of good but the bad was real fuckin bad. So bad it should never be forgotten.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)...and the fascist currently squatting in the White House.
Sure buddy.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)People like Hillary Clinton are more "art of the possible types." Todays FDR democrats are more shoot for the moon and economics solves racism kinda of democrats. That is frightening to me.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Names, please.
Raine
(30,540 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)soryang
(3,299 posts)... the Supreme Court was affected by the war time hysteria of the period. In re Quirin was used to justify similarly motivated legal abuses after 911.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)He was a man of his times. He had to operate and navigate within the constraints of his political and sociological environment. His platform was a better life for all people. Was he perfect? No. Was what was done to Japanese citizens fair and just? No. But, he moved us forward.
Perhaps you should read about what his wife was doing for African-Americans while she was first lady. I know...I know you will say "but that was his wife,not him." Do you believe that a President has absolutely no influence on the causes his wife champions during his administration? As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat. With regard to race, through social programs and his wife's focus on racial justice for African-Americans,he moved us forward.
He did not have the choices and the benefit of 80+ years of social evolution and societal tolerance that our politicians do today. To put him in a 2018 box is extremely unfair.
He moved us forward.
Bucky
(53,986 posts)While the mainland Nissei were being rounded up, the governor of Hawaii refused to round up all Japanese Americans in a place where Japan had actually attacked and which was certainly more vulnerable to 5th columnists... had there been any.
And if anything Gov. Joseph Poindexter was in a far weaker position than any other governor in the country because he was appointed to the job by FDR. And yet he refused to issue an island order to match FDR's round up. His argument was that it would cripple the economy since Japanese-American citizens were 1/3rd of the populous.
To be fair, he did round up several hundred, including community leaders and those with close affiliations with Japan. And Japanese visitors to Hawaii were arrested & interred. But most who were US citizens were eventually released and not held through the end of the war, as mainlanders were.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)Sure LBJ was great on Civil Rights and for POC but that is overshadowed by the fact that he KNOWINGLY led upwards of 50,000 Americans and God only knows how many Vietnamese to their graves based on a LIE (So-called Gulf of Tonkin incident).
September 11th can be traced in a fairly straight line to Jimmy Carter's decision to "give the Soviets their Vietnam War" by sending aid to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan.
John Kennedy not only presided over the Bay of Pigs debacle, he helped steer funding to Cuban exile groups that went on to commit acts of terror with the support of Bobby Kennedy.
Bill Clinton refused to send troops to Rwanda to stop the killing.
Barack Obama signed off on drone strikes that killed scores of civilians and his utilizing a fake vaccination drive to whack Osama Bin Laden led to real health workers being killed by suspicious Pakistanis and Afghanis.
Did FDR do some things we'd consider unthinkable now? Very much so but I'd still take FDR or JFK or Obama over the asshole we have now.
Hekate
(90,617 posts)This is not an invitation to a historical discussion about great men and their flaws -- this is an invitation to view Franklin Roosevelt through the same lens as Donald Trump and call them both the same.
I want to know why this was posted and why so many people are falling for it. This absolutely reeks.
Divide. Divide and conquer.
Christ on a trailer hitch.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)Hekate
(90,617 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)It does, indeed.
Response to Hekate (Reply #82)
Name removed Message auto-removed
tenderfoot
(8,425 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 24, 2018, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)
btw, the op seems to have been locked out of his flamebaiting thread.
GusBob
(7,286 posts)
ecstatic
(32,677 posts)Some of his actions were deplorable. Period. Not sure why that is tripping so many people up. There's grey area--everything isn't black and white.
If dump bumps his head then suddenly decides to decriminalize marijuana and institute single payer, should we act like the past 1.5 years never happened? 
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Is the OP getting paid in Rubles?
Lady_Chat
(561 posts)Right now the Trump looks like shit, but two weeks ago the media and his supporters were singing his praises to the high heavens about meeting with the North Korean leader. His poll numbers went up. Trump is a master at changing the topic.
He hasn't the balls to admit the immigrant chaos, is his doing. According to him, it's now the Democrats fault, and he will keep repeating it,
and his supporters defend him, they are more outraged over "poor" Sarah Sanders being refused entrance to a restaurant.
Will the media follow up, until we can reunite these children? Probably not, they will move on, they always do. Remember the hurricane victims and the response in Puerto Rico? Forgotten.
Like it or not, people will vote for whatever benefits them. I don't think they are looking for the "perfect" president, just one who seems to care, about what's
important to them and takes action.
I'm sure Democrats will remember, but they aren't the only ones who can vote.
When I first read the OP, I thought..WTF? The OP is crying about these children, yet, what does FDR have to do with the current situation?
I didn't see any links where we could actively help these kids.
So here: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/where-to-donate-to-help-immigrant-children-and-families-at-the-border.html
It always seems to me, Democrats are always ready to screw themselves. This is Trump's mess. So, let's see....how can we find a way to bash one of our own? Why? Why on earth would we do that? Especially, with mid terms coming up. Insane.
ecstatic
(32,677 posts)about the timing. However, once the topic was brought up, it was a little disturbing to see so many people gloss over the internment camps like it was nothing.
Thanks for the link! I've been feeling horrible and helpless about the whole thing.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)A ton of accomplishments - many of which changed the course of social and economic history inarguably for the better - on one side of the scale, one act of deplorable racism on the other; the good CLEARLY outweighs the bad. It’s profoundly sophomoric to even attempt to argue otherwise.
All that good doesn’t excuse the bad, of course. It doesn’t make the bad disappear or mean we don’t acknowledge the betrayal of our own citizens in time of crisis. It doesn’t mean we sweep it under the rug.
But neither does the internment invalidate all the good FDR did. It alone cannot shift the scale enough to render his legacy moot.
maxrandb
(15,314 posts)Mods, please remove this cleverly phrased Russian trolling!!!!
Response to Tavarious Jackson (Original post)
tenderfoot This message was self-deleted by its author.
