Gun OWNERS - all of them - are the problem.

[Stinky The Clown]

The NRA would not exist were it not for people owning guns since the gun lobby would have no money to support it were no one buying their guns.

Without gun owners, there would be far less of a "gun culture".

Yes, bad guys with guns are also gun owners, too. In my view, and to my basic point here, there is no difference between gun owners. If someone owns one gun or an arsenal, you are contributing to the problem.

Were there no gun owners, today's shooter would have had to resort to other methods. Which he apparently tried, with IEDs, but failed.

Yeah, I know all the bullshit that will follow this post . . . . mental health, responsible gun owners, and a thousand other deflections when the issue is REAL SIMPLE: GUN OWNERS.

[beachbum bob]

1. Making general statements like this is of no use, I own guns and consider the

NRA as a terrorist organization..millions of people like me have no use for the NRA at all as they don't represent the interest of us at all. No way I or the great majority of Americans would stand for an out right gun ban. The problem is in our culture of glorified violence and apathetic friends, parents and system.

[billh58]

5. The "problem" that

you have identified is exacerbated by the ease of access to deadly weapons by those who should not have them. States and communities which have implemented strict (and constitutional) gun control measures have seen lower incidents of gun violence.

[former9thward]

8. Maybe you can back that up with some links.

I live in Chicago which has some of the strongest gun control laws and we have gun violence far greater than most cities.

[beachbum bob]

12. You do know as gun violence rankings go, Chicago doesn't even make it

In the top 10. Besides it's the gun laws in Indiana where so many guns are bought that are used in Chicago in crimes that the problem...

[billh58]

14. Here you go

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-control-laws-state-impact-on-shooting-deaths-suicide-study/

[Hassin Bin Sober]

18. Well, since you are from Chicago you know there isn't a border checkpoint when you enter.

And you also know the surrounding town gun shops have had a history of supplying gang members with straw purchased guns.

You know that. Yet you repeat bullshit about “strong gun laws” in Chicago.

[WillowTree]

19. So what you're saying is that those tough gun laws aren't working for Chicago.

I agree.

[former9thward]

23. Straw purchases are illegal.

Why haven't they been put out of business?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

32. .

I remember this investigation as it came on the heels of the murder of a Chicago cop by a kid gang member with a straw purchased gun. The media as well as the feds did a little investigating and found a crazy amount of seized guns came from nearby suburbs.


I don’t know why this is news to someone supposedly so knowledgeable of Chicago and it’s gun problems.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-08-19/news/9908190184_1_straw-purchasers-gun-industry-suburban-gun-shops
Eight owners or employees at the five gun shops, as well as corporations that own two of the businesses, were charged with knowingly selling weapons to "straw purchasers"--individuals who bought firearms for others who couldn't buy them legally because they had felony records, drug addictions or didn't possess state firearm owner's cards, officials said.

Authorities also went after those buying guns by charging three accused straw purchasers, as well as a convicted felon who was accused of possessing a firearm illegally.

At four of the gun shops, undercover Chicago police officers posing as gang members made it clear their purchases were on behalf of others, in violation of federal law, yet they were still able to buy weapons, authorities said.

In one case, B&H Sports Ltd., an Oak Lawn gun shop, and its co-owner, Brian Inglese, both were accused of selling five guns, including semiautomatic pistols and rifles, knowing that the weapons would be used in the drug trade, the charges alleged.

Investigators traced weapons illegally sold by another dealer, Kenneth Wisch, who formerly operated a gun shop called KWGS in suburban New Lenox, to a separate murder and armed robbery in Harvey and to a teen gang member picked up for selling drugs, authorities alleged. Wisch, 48, allegedly falsified the identity of one buyer of five weapons on required paperwork, but authorities discovered the individual had been dead for some time, said Jerry Singer, spokesman in Chicago for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which regulates gun dealers.

Then there are cases like this. Surprised someone so knowledgeable doesn’t know about these cases:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-man-sentenced-for-straw-purchasing-guns-in-indiana-455427373.html


Chicago Man Sentenced for 'Straw Purchasing' Guns in Indiana

Or this. Do you even read or watch local media?

https://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/chicago-gun-trace-report-2017-454016983.html

Majority of Guns Used in Chicago Crimes Come From Outside Illinois: Report


Nearly 60 percent of guns recovered in Chicago come from out-of-state dealers, with more than 20 percent traced back to Indiana, according to a newly released report on the city’s violence.
The 2017 Gun Trace Report released Sunday also showed that nearly a quarter of the guns recovered in Chicago were sold by just ten federally licensed firearms dealers (seven in Illinois and three in northwest Indiana).

Which all begs the question, why are you regurgitating such nonsense about Chicago “strict gun laws” when you know that all changed.

Column: The truth — and lies — about Chicago's gun laws

Chicago does not have the strictest gun laws in the country. It’s time for gun lovers to stop spreading that lie.

A decade ago that was indeed a title Chicago wore proudly. We were the only major city that still had an ordinance banning residents from keeping a handgun in their home.

The handgun ban made us the primary target of the National Rifle Association and the Second Amendment Foundation, and in 2010 the U.S. Supreme Court forced Chicago to fall into line with the rest of the country.

Since then, the courts have peeled off so many layers of our once stellar gun ordinance that it’s barely recognizable. We’re still maneuvering to keep gun stores and shooting ranges from opening in the city limits. But the courts have ruled against us on that, too, so we know it’s just a matter of time.

[billh58]

41. The FBI identifies states with weak

gun laws as "source states" because of the ease of transporting guns to states with more stringent gun control laws.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/23/opinion/waffle-house-shooting-nashville.html?

[former9thward]

44. You did not answer my question.

And it is a valid one since it comes up all the time. There are not that many gun stores near Chicago. If all of these guns used in Chicago are coming from these gun stores illegally then why are they still in business? Why hasn't the DOJ in any administration put them out of business? It makes no sense.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

51. It makes perfect sense and you know it.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/atf-gun-laws-nra/

How the NRA Hobbled the ATF
Rules pushed by the gun lobby and its allies in Congress have left the agency unable to enforce the law.


The success of ATF’s critics in reining in its authority is nowhere more evident than in the bureau’s appropriation statute, which is two pages long, devotes 11 lines to describing the agency’s budget and the remaining 76 lines to proscriptions on its powers. Many of these “riders,” as they’re known, go to the agency’s most basic investigative functions. Two of the riders effectively ban consolidation and computerization of records. One limits access and use of crime gun trace data, while another undermines the credibility of whatever trace data are released. One rider overturns ATF efforts to ban the import of large-capacity shotguns, which the agency found had no “sporting purposes.” Another overturned an ATF regulation to limit the import of dangerous weapons under a law originally designed to protect collectors of “curios and relics.”

............


For ATF investigators, a large number of lost or stolen firearms from a particular dealer can be a red flag that the dealer may be selling to criminals. An ATF study in 2000 found that more than 57 percent of crime gun traces in 1998 came from just 1.2 percent of gun dealers. The Washington, D.C.-area snipers, who murdered 10 people in the course of a three-week shooting spree in 2002, obtained their assault rifle from a Tacoma, Washington, dealer with a long history of “missing” firearms.

Corrupt dealers will often claim that a firearm that turned up at a crime scene was lost or stolen. Absent annual inventories, ATF must rely on on-site inspections to ascertain whether a dealer has accounted for every firearm he has bought or sold. That was made more difficult by the 1986 Firearm Owners’ Protection Act, which essentially limits ATF to a single inspection per year for a dealer. ATF officially claims to have 776 “inspectors” to examine 60,000 FFLs. But as spokeswoman Ginger Colbrun explained, only about 600 officers actually conduct inspections while the remainder are administrators. In addition, those 600 officers are responsible not only for inspecting active gun dealers but explosives dealers and prospective dealers. In 2011, only about half of the inspections conducted by those 600 officers were of active retail and wholesale gun sellers. “We do the best job that we can and visit as many dealers as possible,” Colbrun said, “but with the resources we have we’re not going to get to every dealer every year.”

In January 2012, the agency made a presentation at the SHOT Show firearms exhibition in Las Vegas which singled out dealer inspections as a major priority and “risk assessment tool,” and specifically noted that some FFLs are not inspected “for more than 5 years.” An ATF official said they are currently trying to visit each dealer at least once every five years.

[former9thward]

54. It would be very easy to place undercover officers as straw purchasers.

It is not being done. Why? Your articles do not address that. As I said no matter what you think there are not that many gun stores near Chicago.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

63. You sure you are from Chicago? The one in Illinois?

[former9thward]

78. You are defeating your argument.

So send cops in there to do straw purchases. Not hard.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

80. Which argument is that?

A simple graphic shows the ridiculousness of your assertion ther isn’t that many gun stores around Chicago.

I’m not sure if you noticed, but I’m not in charge of law Enforcement. Why are you telling me how to enforce the law?

[Caliman73]

52. You need to be careful with that argument.

It is a right wing talking point that is often used to criticize gun laws. You have to know that while Chicago has restrictive gun laws, neighboring jurisdictions in Illinois and Indiana have lax laws and that many of the guns used in crimes in Chicago are traced to out of state purchases. You similarly, Los Angeles/California has strict laws, but Nevada does not so people go over the state line to purchase firearms knowing that they are skirting the laws. I say this as a firearm owner myself.

There are areas where I will push back. I disagree that ALL owners are the problem, but guns are way too easy to acquire and we need to address that. The background check system needs to be fixed and private sales need to be subject to background checks. If firearms stores are known to be a hub for the purchase of weapons that are used in crimes, then those stores need to come under major scrutiny. These are problems that are known among gun owners but often are swept aside in discussion.

[former9thward]

56. The poster I replied to said stores were the problem.

All gun stores do federal background checks. What else is needed for them?

[Caliman73]

57. There are definitely stores that are the problem.

There have been reports on stores that have been linked to unusually high rates of firearms traced back from crimes. The problem is that the federal government has prevented studies of firearms as a public health issue and the ATF is usually held up from delving too deep into the problem.

You are right, all gun stores do checks, but they have to police themselves regarding straw purchases and are not likely to treat that as a very important topic. That is like asking a candy store to do something about diabetes.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

60. And they also "lose" thousands of guns per year.

It’s impossible to keep track of deals inventory given the legislative roadblocks and the on-purpose manpower and budgetary restrictions.

So when a gun shows up in a crime they claim that one was stolen from us.

[SonofDonald]

25. My thoughts exactly

The nra is a useless organization in my opinion also, they act like they are the voice of all gun owners without permission from most of us.

I don't normally post in any "gun owners" subjects anymore, most are here just to have an argument, not a discussion.

The nra has only one agenda but so do most OP's that start a thread about guns.

Neither speaks for me.

[wasupaloopa]

58. In all the years of these kind of OP's

I have never read a valid idea of what the problem is from gun owners.

You can’t admit we have a sick gun culture. Nowhere in the world is there such a gun culture.

[GitRDun]

84. I don't own any guns but I agree with you!

An outright ban does not comport with the ideals of our country.

We just need our politicians to start to try to solve the problem.

This daisy chain of corruption that prevents reform is our problem!

[Devil Child]

2. Now that you have identified that I am the problem

What is your intended solution for the problem that I present by existing?

I am a leftist and Democratic gun owner and genuinely curious.

[Hortensis]

17. Same here. I wonder if there's something insidious in the air.

Stinky's a smart person and hardly the only one to suddenly surprise me with these uncharacteristic trumpian analyses.

Like a Crayola 8-count box of primary color fixes to national problems.

[Sailor65x1]

47. You beat me to it with the 8!

I've been thinking these sky-screamers are an 8-bit solution to a 64-bit problem!

[Hortensis]

53. :) I understand crayons better than computers,

more than a little simple minded here too, but yes.

[Devil Child]

61. "Like a Crayola 8-count box of primary color fixes to national problems"

Goddamn right, there is no bumper-sticker solution for this.

[XRubicon]

48. You are a "leftist"?

[Devil Child]

49. Yes

[XRubicon]

50. Ok...

[wasupaloopa]

59. You need to first admit that our gun culture is

the problem. It diesn’t matter who you vote for.

[Devil Child]

72. "It diesn't matter who you vote for."

Oh really, that's good to know.

[wasupaloopa]

86. In reference to your stand on our gun culture

It is not a red blue issue. Kids are killed in school

Bullets don’t know your political beliefs nor do they care.

[Caliman73]

76. I think that we have a "culture of violence" and masculinity.

I think that the glorification of guns is definitely part of that. If that is what you mean by "sick gun culture" then I would agree. We have a problem with violence that is greatly exacerbated by the access to guns. Another sickness is that guns are pushed as any other consumer product.

We need to deal with the issue on multiple levels. We need to address factors that facilitate violence, from poverty, trauma, stress, and disconnect from community. We need to deal with this idea of toxic masculinity. We need to deal with racial issues and sexism. We need to deal with access to guns. All of those things need to be addressed.

[treestar]

87. Would you give them up as in Australia, et.

If it would save the next batch of high school students or moviegoers, etc. ? Just the first batch after that.

[SQUEE]

3. Ah..

Gunpipo?

[Tipperary]

4. Well done.

[samnsara]

7. i needed that laugh!

[superpatriotman]

9. +1

[WillowTree]

10. Now THAT''S funny! Thank you.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. LOL!

[ProudLib72]

16. STOP BEING DIVISIVE!!!

[samnsara]

6. i own several guns and im very responsible with them...

[USALiberal]

46. Says EVERY gun owner. nt

[EX500rider]

64. With 80+ million gun owners and 9,000 homicides per year they would be correct.

Especially since a large number of the homicide perpetrators are forbidden by law to own guns due to past felonies.

[USALiberal]

71. LOL, compare us to other countries. UK, Canada, countrys we admire. nt

[EX500rider]

73. Sure..

US homicide rate 4.8 European rate 3.0 Not a huge difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

You can cherry pick individual European states for lower rates but you can cherry pick US states for the same thing.

[USALiberal]

74. LOL, math challenged??

You gun idiots are scared to admit we are a violent country.

UK .92 fool!!

Canada is 1.68!!! Why?????

God damn quit making up shit.

You expose your bias with EVERY post!

[USALiberal]

75. Nice try! USA is 4.88! So 4.9!!!!! Somalia is 5.56. Great company we keep! nt

[AncientGeezer]

13. All...hmm.

When you typed this did you consider how many registered Democrats own firearms....or did you just broad brush us all?

[flotsam]

15. All of us?

Because not a single one of you complained when my first gun was accompanied by jungle warfare training. Nor has a single one of you ever even seen me with a weapon. Of those I own the pistols are locked in a safe with biometric security as are the ammunition for the rifles and shotguns I own. I don't belong to or support the NRA. And you should be deeply ashamed of your accusations towards me. I am a veteran and a gun owner.

[Sailor65x1]

45. Apparently, all of us, yeah

But I'm with you, Brother.

[cynatnite]

20. The problem is not treating guns as one would a car

Register, licensed, insurance, etc.

It his harder to buy a car, adopt a cat, and any number of things than it is to buy a gun.

I'm all for making it tough as hell to buy a gun.

[brooklynite]

21. Substitute "car" for "gun" and "AAA" for "NRA"...

[XRubicon]

22. Gun owners should pay

They are trying to raise my property taxes to make our local schools into supermax prisons.

Why the fuck should I pay for this?

Semi-automatic weapons of any kind need to be taxed. It will pay for added security, slow sales and make illegal guns more expensive and rare.

[hack89]

24. So what do you intend to do about us?

Or is this just venting?

[XRubicon]

27. Tax you

See above post

[hack89]

28. And when will these taxes in place? Nt

[XRubicon]

30. You're not going to call it a "poll tax" that infringes on your rights?

You guys are slipping... Don't worry I won't tell Wayne or Ollie.

[hack89]

33. No. Just wondering when those new taxes will be in place. Nt

[XRubicon]

35. Good, so you don't object right?

[hack89]

40. Let's see the details. Nt

[pintobean]

29. No, you won't.

[XRubicon]

31. Wheres the Greek saying?

Yes we will.

[pintobean]

36. If it could be done, it already would have.

Keep dreaming, though.

[XRubicon]

37. I don't want your gun, I want your money

To pay for all the shit your hobby causes.

[pintobean]

38. You'll get neither.

[XRubicon]

39. Good luck!

[kimbutgar]

26. Putin must be very happy today with all that Russian money donated to the NRA

Another destabilizing thing to take down America. Who would have thought Putin and the NRA are joined at the hip as partners.

[Exotica]

34. As it is playing out over the last 50 years, the 2nd Amendment appears to me to be a suicide pact

Unfortunately there is zero chance for decades, if ever, to repeal it. I think even if it was repealed that it would stop many states from enshrining gun rights into their laws. I hope I am wrong on all counts.

[Blecht]

42. There is no talking sense to a gun owner

They will never recognize that they are a part of the problem, no matter what the rest of their political views are, as you can tell from the other responses in this thread.

Gun ownership is a fucking sickness.

[Hoyt]

66. Exactly, they don't care either.

[womanofthehills]

43. Wow!! This guy has it right!!

[NutmegYankee]

65. Except for the fat shaming references sprinkled throughout...

[GusFring]

55. LOL. I like target shooting, so Im to blame. This is why we struggle to win elections.

[aikoaiko]

62. I think polarized extremists --- all of them -- are the problem.

They accomplish nothing.

[Stinky The Clown]

69. I think one is part of the solution or part of the problem.

How do all the "responsible gun owners" help curb the epidemic of gun violence?

[aikoaiko]

77. By not committing violence

Up to 80 million Americans don’t use or let others their up to 300 million guns in violent crimes.

There are a lot of guns owned by responsible gun gun owners not being used in violent crimes.

The “epidemic” of gun murders is still lower than it was 20 years ago.

There are people in the middle who are working on compromise and addressing the issues.

[Hoyt]

82. Yeah, Zimmerman, Dunn, Paddock, Roof . . . . All responsible gun owners up

until they are not.

Then let’s throw in those who intimidate with guns, kill spouses, indoctrinate their kids into gun culture, 60+ million white wing racist gun owners, etc.

Why should we coddle the rest for anything more than a gun or two at home for hunting or home defense? And no high capacity semi-autos.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

67. No one; you, me... anyone; knows what our future mental health will be.

Disbelief and shock - evidenced by, "He was such a nice guy! I can't believe he did that!!!" - follows many mass shootings.
Just as no one can say with certainty what their physical health will be a year or even a week from now; none of us knows exactly what our emotional/psychological/mental health will be in any given future moment.
Take away the availability of high capacity weapons. Single-shot weapons only will immediately remove the "mass" from mass shootings.

[GulfCoast66]

68. This gun owning, liberal democrat supports the last Democratic Party platform position on guns.

[gopiscrap]

70. Totally agree

[Ferrets are Cool]

79. Gun owners would rather hug their guns than hug

their children. If you don't like that, FO...it's MY opinion.

Anyone not willing to give up THEIR guns for the greater good is evil. Don't like that? FO, it's my opinion.

Anyone not willing to give up their guns to save ONE human life is a horrible person. Don't like that, FO, it's my opinion.

Yes, GUN OWNERS are the problem.

[Devil Child]

83. I'm hugging my child and my gun at the same time

I'm pretty good at multi-tasking. But other than that I'm ok with you thinking I'm an evil and horrible person.

One thing we agree on is ferrets are cool.

[samir.g]

81. K&R Gun OWNERS - all of them - are the problem.

Gun OWNERS - all of them - are the problem.

[thinkingagain]

85. Isn't that kinda like saying every one who drives is the problem because of a car accident

Or everyone who ever drinks is the problem because of a drunk driver ?

As some who lost two people in my life time to drunk drivers I never blamed everyone who ever drank a drink or who owned a vehicle for those deaths I blamed the irresponsibility they chose to do.
No respect!

I also am from a family that has owned guns since before the revolution but was taught a a very young age safety & responsibility with that rifle and to always RESPECT that gun.

The biggest problem with the NRA is $$ hungry A good company when they see a problem with their product will do something to make it safer.
As with our leaders they have no problem with making regulations on other products to make them safer and more regulated cars planes etc not so with guns to much $$ for them
Guns can be made safer and more sensible laws regulating them and teach people to respect the use of them may not be the only answer but it is a beginning.