The internet is enabling a community of men who want to kill women. They need to be stopped

[DonCoquixote]

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/25/17279294/toronto-massacre-minassian-incels-internet-misogyny

there is censorship against offensive speech, and attempts to stop a murder...the line has been corssed.

[Throck]

1. The Internet has allowed a lot of hate groups to connect and communicate.

They feed and encourage one another.

[smirkymonkey]

2. I do believe there has to be some limits against hate speech, like they have in Germany.

Or at least the encouragement of it, such as on the internet or in the media. It has very serious real world consequences.

[oberliner]

7. There is no 'hate speech' exception to the First Amendment

[smirkymonkey]

8. I know there aren't but there should be.

It is proving far too damaging in today's society.

[Squinch]

3. We had a number of them here not that long ago. But we don't think of those posts as

"the attack on DU by the men's rights assholes." We think of it as the "History of Feminism wars." Laying the blame, of course, at the feet of the women who fought back. As is usual in our culture.

[nikki haley]

4. yes these men need to be stopped

yes these men need to be stopped

[MountCleaners]

5. I used to argue with men's rights advocates online

They were trying to make "reasonable"-sounding arguments. I kept pointing out to them that they were opening the door for extremists and fascists. They ignored my points and continued to harp on ways in which men were at a disadvantage. We would argue about domestic violence statistics or rape cases and such.

I wonder what those guys are doing now that we have social media and the "moderates" are outnumbered by misogynists. Their political naivete was tragic.

I recommend this blog for documenting the MRAs and their public statements:

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/

See also:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-can-the-radicalization-of-incels-be-stopped/

"Incel" means "involuntarily celibate". How is this not a call to rape?

[GusBob]

6. These incel guys sound like losers

They make themselves sound like losers

I'm a bit of a loser myself, but I don't go around sounding off about it

Who wants to amplify their inadequacies?

[Hortensis]

9. Yes, that's the point--about THEM. :)

Agree entirely with the foolishness of broadcasting and amplifying personal problems. (!) But they're just a noisy tip of a huge iceberg of a growing social dysfunction that threatens our nation.

Greater freedom of choice for women means not just that more men aren't getting any, but that more aren't able to marry, have a life's companion and children, a welcoming home to return to each day. For each creep on these forums are gosh only knows how many thousands of unhappy, demoralized decent men who don't see the American dream happening for them.

This is a really serious problem for these poor guys. Don't know how to fix it, but affordable college is mandatory to at least begin. We all know good providers are sexy, even as one of two incomes, but reportedly fewer men than women are going after degrees these days. Don't know about certificates for skilled jobs, but when a single quarter credit costs $1000 and more suspect that also.

[DonCoquixote]

10. about this

Don't know how to fix it, but affordable college is mandatory to at least begin. We all know good providers are sexy, even as one of two incomes, but reportedly fewer men than women are going after degrees these days. Don't know about certificates for skilled jobs, but when a single quarter credit costs $1000 and more suspect that also.

It is one thing to say that a lot of young males feel that the life they were enitiled to was stolen from them,and that woman are to blame. Hell, go ahead and watch Fight Cluband you will see stuff that could be right out of Incel scripture. However,let us not feed the beast that is "these guys are victims of the economy" like Trump exploited. if that was the case, why is it that some of the richest men who have ever lived, from Trump,to Cosby, To Weinstein, et al are not only known for being sexually addicted, but also extremely unhappy, having third marriages or fifth affairs when they easily could have STOPPED and lived happily ever after. Many of these people think money and sex is the key to a woman; funny, the "gentlemen" who was the idol of the Toronto killer was RICH, and his blogs kept on whinign about why these women could not want to have sex with him?

In short,Money does not stop men from wanting to oppress...laws do. We need to raise boys to think fo these idiots who can make a lot of money and still ruin their lives as LOSERS. Whether you are aworking class stiff in a "wifebeater" shirt, or aguy in versace, if you need force to get laid, you are a LOSER.

[Hortensis]

11. Can't disagree with most. But far, far more decent men are

in this foundering boat than the incel creeps. So many more that the creeps who are more interesting to talk about simply don't matter in comparison. (One good thing about the attention this subgroup is drawing is some will "out" themselves as people look to see if acquaintances and job applicants are among them, lessening their chances of reproducing themselves even more.)

But it's past time to talk about this very real new problem, not entertaining ourselves by despising malicious incel "losers." The growing numbers of unhappy single men who can't live the lives available to others were a factor in the trump phenomenon.

They're men who don't sell themselves well to women. Some have loving hearts and other good stuff, others may not have all that much to offer or even be real duds (I'm thinking of a number of husbands I've known), but before this era most would have married anyway.

This is almost as basic as a societal problem can be. We have growing numbers of unhappy men who don't have to worry about food and water, only about being hopeless, unworthy rejects, shut out of the lives most have and they can't.

NO one is saying more of these men are now voting for the Democratic agenda in hopes of bettering their condition, being a raised boat among many. Most shifting politically are moving right -- resentment is causing more to reject the ideals of equality central to their problem and to support oppressive, fascistic messages.

Danger not just ahead, but here.

[DonCoquixote]

12. Can't disagree with most, myself, but.

As a male who frankly will very likely never get married and have the sort of life my elders did,I would say that we must be careful not to discount the very real power of malice that the cultures encourages. It is not "entertaining ourselves" to call out behavior that is destructive to others and themselves, it is needed. The only way people turn away from behavior is not when it is rewarded,or even where it is punished, but when it stops being desirable, when people become disenchanted with it. We must make feel who want to partake in this feel like losers,much the same way smoking among teens went down when the ads stopped moralizingand made smoking look uncool.

And yes the " growing numbers of unhappy single men who can't live the lives available to others were a factor in the trump phenomenon." But can you reall separate the malice from the discontent? For every "I cannot live like my dad" part, there are three parts "kill and punish those people you should hate!" This is not new, because in the 1930's there were people who also felt jipped, and who had a reason to. There were attempts by the fascists to get influence. However, those same young men,and young women, rejected it,and became Rosie the Riveter and Gi Joe.

Of course the economy has to be confronted, indeed, the nation needs to lose enchantment with the all too male fantasy of USA-style, unbridled capitalism. That is what fuels men to feel inadeqaute, because billionaires have no interest in making sure that the working people feel anything but a competition that gets the energy of the people and also reduces them to harmless ashes in the process. For any millionaire jock, there is a Billionaire owner who will still be wealthy long after lawyers and predators reduce the athlete to a crippled, broke man.

[Hortensis]

13. UNBRIDLED capitalism destructive. Yes. But do you

really believe "For every "I cannot live like my dad" part, there are three parts "kill and punish those people you should hate!" I don't. Most of the despicables who moved to Trump are reacting to what they see as too much change at their expense and wanting to halt it going further, also to undo it somewhat.

BUT -- Most of the men being squeezed in this transition from yesterday to tomorrow aren't changing parties or votes at all. They retain their principles, whatever those are.

Which leaves those others. The way to battle the relatively few hateful, violent scum among those is -- as it always is -- to decrease the negative pressures that empower them by adding support.

Republican policies largely created and absolutely exacerbated the various anxieties of this era. Very deliberately.

A period of positive, forward-thinking Democratic governance raising most boats, providing reassuring answers to worried questions about what's ahead, reopening the opportunities for betterment that were once far more available, and so on, will calm and replace a lot of the anxiety with assurance and hope. Enough to make the difference that always diminishes and disempowers extremism.

It should have continued Obama's start, of course. At least somewhat more people now believe and are receptive to what thousands of our politicians were talking about when they promised to use government to fix problems, create opportunities, and steer our nation through the shoals.

[DonCoquixote]

14. This is where we have to part ways

Which leaves those others. The way to battle the relatively few hateful, violent scum among those is -- as it always is -- to decrease the negative pressures that empower them by adding support.

It is not just a matter of decreasing negative pressure. If that were the case, even the people who hated Obama would at least remember that they had more money during the Clinton era. No, there are far too many takers of the lie that if the browns and blacks are doing well, they are taking what they think is rightfully theirs. And yes, there are the white women who voted for trump because they wanted to punish the Hillary voters. Merely removing negative pressure wil not make them move, indeed, they will interpret the fact that you do not want to confront them as WEAKNESS.

And to answer your question:
View profile
really believe "For every "I cannot live like my dad" part, there are three parts "kill and punish those people you should hate!" I don't. Most of the despicables who moved to Trump are reacting to what they see as too much change at their expense and wanting to halt it going further, also to undo it somewhat. "

YES, YES, and hell yes..and if you do nto understand,go sit in a restaurant where fox news is at full blast,the sort of place you felt comfortable in before people started to look at you and make a judgement "is he one of us, or THEM?" You may believe some of these folks are nice people who just want a job, a wife,a kid and a dog, but then the maga shirts would not sell, nor would places like even DU always reliably come up with some posters who say "well, Men have it worse then women" or"Trayvon Martin deserved to get shot."

Yes,there needs to be kindness,and fairness, but to allow fools to use malice and lies is not kindness,it is allowing them to continue killing,raping,and burning until there is no one left to give kindness to,which is unkindness. Please remember, for all the focus on Hitler,Himmler, Stalin and other shoy tyrants,it was common people,so called good people, that not only supported them,but were very happy to do the killing that could NOT have happened without them.

To quote Lou Reed: "you can't depend on the goodly hearted//goodly hearted made lampshades and soap." And yes, I do see in the eyes of many of these so called passive Trump supporters the same look as one would see in the old WWII films, which no doubt the current GOP will call fake news.

[Hortensis]

15. :) To freely paraphrase one leader to another, you

destroy your target group your way, I'll destroy them mine. (Lessening their identity through prosperity and assimilation, versus pogrums, etc.)