Just want to say that catfight is a sexist term

[G_j]

There is no acceptable usage for it, unless referring to actual cats.

IMHO

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. Agreed.

[Sinistrous]

2. Nonsense.

Unless tomcats aren't really cats.

[George II]

4. But it certainly should not be used to refer to a discussion between two women.

[Orsino]

91. Yeah. No matter how egalitarian the intent...

...it's gonna read as sexist when the parties involved are women.

Even with men, though, it will carry overtones of emasculation and toxic feminization without clear context.

[pnwmom]

77. It is a fight between women, according to dictionaries.

Similarly, the word pussy is only connected to women, even though the term pussycat applies to both genders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catfight

Catfight (also girl fight) is a term for an altercation between two women, often characterized as involving scratching, slapping, hair-pulling, and shirt-shredding. It can also be used to describe women insulting each other verbally or engaged in an intense competition for men, power, or occupational success.[1] The catfight has been a staple of American news media and popular culture since the 1940s, and use of the term is often considered derogatory or belittling.

[democratisphere]

3. Excuse me while I walk on some eggshells.

[trof]

128. I know. jeez

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. It's only used to describe arguments between women,

who are presumed to be hissy and screechy and scratchy, like cats - small, furry animals who make a lot of noise without doing much damage. (Yes, tomcats also, or especially, fight, but they are also hissy, screechy and scratchy.) To describe an argument between two women in those terms is insulting and sexist - women are quite capable of arguing, even vehemently, without screeching or clawing. I love cats but I hate that term.

[EffieBlack]

9. Bingo

[Abu Pepe]

15. Cat sex is the most disturbing thing that has ever happened

on the planet. I like cats too but holy crap.

Also. Your post is spot on. It means to females fighting and is often used as a sexist metaphore for professional women disagreeing in the work place.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Cat sex is very loud.

But the noise obviously does not deter them, since there are a lot of cats.

[Abu Pepe]

20. Oh god the noise is what I mean

Well the act istelf is pretty shocking, the ear biting combined with the demonic sound.

Dog sex, though, is kind of funny.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. Dogs sometimes get stuck, which is even more disturbing than noise.

[Abu Pepe]

24. That's when your grandmother turns a water hose on them

not saying that's cool. But an early memory.

[B2G]

48. No damage?

Last edited Mon Apr 23, 2018, 09:50 AM - Edit history (1)

You've evidently never been on the receiving end of a pissed off cat

[G_j]

99. That is exactly why

I feel the term is inappropriate used in that way.
Thanks.

[mountain grammy]

117. Agree.

[A HERETIC I AM]

6. .....

[angel823]

22. oh yeah

spot on

Angel in Texasperated

[Iggo]

7. Yep. Grow up, people. (n/t)

[EffieBlack]

8. +1

Thank you.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. I don't agree. It's a common (and sexist) trope used in TV and movies

and one should at least be able to use that term to call out or identify that trope. JMHO.

[pnwmom]

11. So is pearl-clutching.

[pintobean]

33. How ironic

[Odoreida]

12. Agreed but I haven't heard it in years.

Just lucky?

[ProudLib72]

13. You missed the thread about the Kellyanne interview then

That's what this is all about.

[Odoreida]

14. That explains it. Just lucky.

[blake2012]

16. Not true. Most cats fighting are male

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Most cat fights involving actual cats are between tomcats.

But the term is used as a metaphor for fights or arguments between women, because fighting cats of both genders hiss, screech and claw - attributes assigned to women. Have you ever heard an argument between men described as a cat fight? Me either.

[Igel]

74. Yeah.

Not mostly, but yeah.

The problem is that any derogatory term applied to describe a negative feature or behavior is viewed as negative and a bad thing to be on the receiving end of, whether it's you or your group. When it's applied mostly to one sex, it's obligatorily sexist (where a positive term applied to one sex is still positive). Even if it's not applied to one sex in practice, it's easy to overlook--it's especially easy to ignore occasional counter examples once there's an argument to be won by denying they exist. We don't like bad things said about our identity, in other words.

The style of arguing and fighting termed a "cat fight" was, however, very similar when it was between men. Or between men and women.

[Equinox Moon]

18. Could you use it in a sentence?

I'm not sure how I feel about it.

[Vinca]

23. Oh, good lord. Soon we'll all need fainting couches in our homes.

[cyclonefence]

32. Go ahead and use the term, then

Just know that women will consider you sexist and the smart ones won't want to talk to you at all.

[Vinca]

37. Then I guess I won't have to worry about talking to myself.

[A HERETIC I AM]

38. But the ones with a sense of humor will...

And that’s just as good

[cyclonefence]

43. Maybe

but they'll just think you're an asshole.

Now that was nasty, and I apologize, but I think it's pretty funny, so I'll go ahead and post this.

[A HERETIC I AM]

49. Thats ok

I AM an asshole, and I’m not too big to
Admit it

And I’m not offended. And if I was, so what? It’s not as if I’ll wake up with the Black Plague tomorrow

“What happened?”

“Well, someone on the internet called me an asshole (or used the term ‘Catfight’) and I was offended. And this morning I woke up with the Black Plague “

“Well, you’re fucked, mate”

[cyclonefence]

106. I'm an asshole, too

Drunk at a recent party I belligerently told the amateur magician how his trick was done. But I did apologize, to his delight, because what I'd pointed out was supposed to have been obvious. Now that kind of action requires a *real* asshole, and that's me.

[Squinch]

51. Because calling women's arguments cat fights shows a sense of humor?

Did someone tell you that? Or is that your own conclusion?

[A HERETIC I AM]

58. First of all, not all fights between women are referred to that way

And secondly, there are some actual fights between women that do resemble a fight between cats, hence the reference, just as there are fights between men that resemble fights between animals of other sorts and are characterized that way In movies and other media.

Frankly, none of the women I have been close to in my life, the vast majority of intellect and good humor, would be offended by the term to the point that they would make an issue of it, because they would have seen the expression for what it is - a stereotype - NOT because they are so wrapped up in the silliness in which this OP is predicated.

Bill Maher made a great point;

It isn’t just that some folks won’t walk into a room full of sharp objects, they want everyone else to wear bubble wrap.

I don’t go out of my way to hurt anyone’s feelings, and I certainly have used the term before because it’s part of the lexicon.

But....

This is the internet, for fucks sake! You don’t have the right to not be offended and if you are, so what?
NOTHING BLOODY HAPPENS TO YOU!!!

I’m still waiting for your argument

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

61. Thanks for the mansplanation about why a sexist expression shouldn't offend me,

and so what if it does?

If that's the rule, why can't we use all the other words that offend some people, like "n-----" and any number of others that are "part of the lexicon"? Because the people to whom those words are applied don't have the right not to be offended either, right? And if they are, so what?

[A HERETIC I AM]

62. Gotta love that! Edited;

Mansplaining, eh?

Offering my opinion on a word is mansplaining.

Fascinating

As far as the rest of your post, well shit. What can I say? You got me. Because using the “N word” shares the exact same history and has the same offensive potential.

Yup.

I see how you have convinced me.

Jesus Hornblower Christ burning a thesaurus

Just for fun, the thesaurus entry;

catfight [ kat-fahyt ]
Main Entry: quarrel
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: disagreement
Synonyms: affray, altercation, argument, battle royal, beef, bickering, brannigan, brawl, breach, broil, catfight, combat, commotion, complaint, contention, controversy, difference, difference of opinion, difficulty, disapproval, discord, disputation, dispute, dissension, dissidence, disturbance, dust*, falling-out, feud, fight, fisticuffs, fracas, fray, fuss, hassle, misunderstanding, objection, rhubarb, row, ruckus*, run-in, scrap, set-to, spat, squabble, strife, struggle, tiff, tumult, vendetta, wrangle
Antonyms: agreement, peace

They even list Catfight as a synonym

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

63. The "n" word is not anywhere near as offensive, obviously,

although lots of nice white men will be happy to explain that "n......" is just a mispronunciation of a perfectly harmless Spanish word for "black," and wonder why people take such offense.

Likewise you can give me all the thesaurus definitions you want, "catfight" when applied to an argument between women is still sexist. Is it in the same league as "c..."? No, but it's still sexist. You can use it if you want but you can't tell me how I should feel about it.

[A HERETIC I AM]

66. Where did I tell you or any other person how they should feel about it?

What I said was you don’t have a RIGHT to NOT be offended.

It doesn’t exist.

Now I certainly appreciate how words can be hurtful and demeaning and cruel and many other things, and if you have ever read anything I posted with regularity over the last 15 years, since we both became members here only weeks apart, you would know that I am not the type of person to be intentionally cruel or disrespectful. Sure, I’ve had
My moments over the years, and I regret them, but it isn’t my habit.

So I resent the implication that I am somehow guilty of that general insensitivity

But I’m sure as hell not going to start a bloody thread about it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

67. It's not a matter of having or not having the right not to be offended.

But everyone does have the right to call out language that is sexist, racist, or otherwise offensive to them or to someone else. If you want to call me an oversensitive snowflake with no sense of humor, that's your right. Women get that a lot when they object to sexist language and behavior.

[A HERETIC I AM]

69. Oh, come on, maam!

I used NONE of those terms toward you or anyone else, and you most certainly have the right to call out language you find offensive

What you DONT have is the right to demand everyone else live (or type, as the case may be) as you deem fit.

Is that fair?

And if you haven’t already, please re-read my above post, as I hit post before I finished it earlier

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

72. I did nothing of the kind. I simply called out the use of a sexist word.

If you want to use it that's your (male) privilege. If you don't get why it's sexist I can't help you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

76. If you want to call me an oversensitive snowflake with no sense of humor, that's your right.

I didn’t call you anything of the sort

And I also never said I didn’t think it wasn’t sexist, but since it is clear now that you prefer to put
Words in my mouth, I’ll just end this here

[kennetha]

81. mansplaining is such a sexist term

It just shouldn't be used. Ever.

See, two can play that game.

[leftynyc]

93. Well done

I'm sick to death of so many on the left wasting their time on this BULLSHIT. So you're offended - move the fuck on and grow the fuck up.

[leftynyc]

92. Just freaking STOP IT

I'm a woman and agreed with each and every word in that post AND also completely agree with Bill Maher. Go wrap yourself up in bubble wrap and leave the scolding for kindergarden teachers.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

96. I am sorry I offended you.

[leftynyc]

98. Don't apologize

because you didn't offend me. I can't be bothered to give a crap about what each and every person finds offensive.

[Squinch]

116. You seem upset.

[leftynyc]

119. I've been shaking my head

at this entire thread since yesterday. If you think this is what anger looks like, you need a better barometer. Feel free to focus on the BS all you want.

[Squinch]

115. Hmmm. That seems like you are scolding that poster and demanding that they

honor your opinion about what's appropriate. That's irony there.

[leftynyc]

120. Except I'm not demanding

a damn thing. Or telling them I'm going to think less of them. Or telling them they need to agree with me or else they're obviously a racist, misogynist, bigot, etc. Are you getting the difference yet?

[Squinch]

122. "JUST FREAKING STOP IT" seems like a demand to me.

[leftynyc]

125. I can't control what you think

That was helpful advice. I don't like the left being labeled whiners and that's all that nonsense like this does.

[Squinch]

70. You're just digging and digging, aren't you? You're waiting for my argument?

Wow.

[leftynyc]

90. SOME women

I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest and have used it recently myself to describe the battle between donnie and stormy daniels. Just more bullshit about what we can and can't say because SOME people spend their lives looking to be outraged about something.

[G_j]

124. Have you ever heard men express excitement over

the potential of two women getting into a “cat fight”?
That is the common usage I have heard during my lifetime. The most generous way to describe it is stupid,
though it’s obviously sexist also.

It’s not about being thin skinned or overly sensitive. It’s more about evolving beyond stupidity.

[leftynyc]

126. Like I said

I use it myself - and have very recently - to describe 2 PEOPLE fighting in public. Since we're never going to be able to stamp out all language that someone, somewhere finds offensive, perhaps we should just get better at dealing with it and shrugging it off.

[Squinch]

50. Well, you might. The rest of us are fine, thanks.

[LanternWaste]

97. I too pretend that simple discussion is an antecedent to fainting couches as well.

I too pretend that simple discussion is an antecedent to fainting couches as well. When we have nothing else of real substance, we're forced to rely on petulance... regardless of the furniture you pretend to need in your home.

I'm sure though that you'll pretend your petulance is something entirely different (as who but the honest would admit to petulance?). Maybe Righteous Pragmatism, it seems to be getting traction as a branding effort. Fits on a t-shirt.

[BannonsLiver]

25. Yes, pussyfight might be more acccurate

Though TBH that doesn’t sound a whole helluva lot better.

[Squinch]

44. WTF?

[MrsCoffee]

53. WTF?

x 2

[BannonsLiver]

55. Cats are sometimes referred to as pussycats

Pussy is a euphemism for several things including cats. Try and keep up.

[Squinch]

71. Yes, we all know that. And we all know what you were saying. The WTFs are because we

can't believe someone would be so open with creepy sexism.

[cwydro]

103. Im actually not surprised.

[Tipperary]

82. Wow. Amazing.

[Lunabell]

26. Yes

We are not cats.

[dameatball]

27. I actually tried to breeak up a real catfight years ago. What an idiot! Had to get a tetanus shot

[Merlot]

31. Humans always end up worse for wear in that situation!

I also learned that lesson the hard way and have battle scars.

Catfights are scary mean, but am in agreement that it's a sexist term.

And while we're at it, can we stop calling an undershirt a "wife-beater?"

Thank you.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

123. Me, too - bad idea.

An angry cat is like a hairy chainsaw, and trying to break up a fight is like sticking your hand in a Cuisinart. I'll never do that again.

[whathehell]

28. Agreed. It is sexist and I never use it. n/t.

.

[Loki Liesmith]

29. Eh, Ill say what I want

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

64. And I'll criticize your choice of words if I want.

[cyclonefence]

30. For sure

No fight between men has ever been called a catfight. "Catfight" devalues and disrespects the fight, whatever it's about. "Panties in a wad" is another one.

[dameatball]

36. I quit wearing underwear so people would not be able to tell me that.

[cyclonefence]

42. That would solve a whole slew of problems!

[rzemanfl]

79. LOL. n/t

[kennetha]

39. what you think fights deserve to be valued and respected

by those not engaged in the fight? That can't be a general truth. Most fights are pointless.

[cyclonefence]

41. What if it's a fight to keep someone from hurting someone else?

I agree that most fights are stupid, but if people one respects engage in a fight, I assume the point of the fight would be something worth respecting.

And if men's fights are not referred to as "catfights," does that mean that men's fights are more worthy of respect (through not being compared to yowling, scratching felines fighting over a piece of tuna)?

[kennetha]

45. men's fights are referred to often as cockfights

as a way to dismiss them as about out of control male ego.

[cyclonefence]

107. Have to tell you I've never heard such a thing

but I do often use the term "pissing contest" myself. For which I apologize to all pissers everywhere.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

75. Exactly. It implies that a fight between women is nothing but

a noisy but inconsequential confrontation between a couple of little creatures who are no more important than house pets.

[cyclonefence]

105. What continues to blow me away

here at DU, where I know people are progressive and have nothing but good intentions, is that there is massive resistance to being educated as to what is offensive to some people. Predictably, when anything like this is brought up, there is a segment of our population who will be threatened by the idea and stick to their right to say anything they please, no matter who it offends.

Good luck to them. They will self-identify in conversation, sooner or later, as misogynists or at the very least clods with no concern for others' feelings. At least now they can't claim they didn't know any better.

I guess these same people ignore the fact that the N word, k*ke, sl*pe, h*rp, etc. etc. are offensive to some people and feel free to use them.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

112. Yes. That's become evident in this thread.

Granted, "catfight" isn't as overtly offensive as some other expressions I can think of, but the connotation is sexist, and obviously so. Of course people can use whatever words they want; it's not a matter of telling them they must not use certain words, but simply of pointing out their underlying sense. It seems to me that those who are offended by other people being offended, or at least concerned, about that usage, fall into two categories: Those who don't think a certain term is sexist at all, and those who don't care that it is. As to the first, with respect to the word "catfight," it's not only self-evidently sexist, even commonly-accepted definitions make it clear:

Catfight (also girl fight) is a term for an altercation between two women, often characterized as involving scratching, slapping, hair-pulling, and shirt-shredding. It can also be used to describe women insulting each other verbally or engaged in an intense competition for men, power, or occupational success.The catfight has been a staple of American news media and popular culture since the 1940s, and use of the term is often considered derogatory or belittling....

“More than any other aspect of the catfight in today’s culture, the catfight’s sexually arousing potential is exploited for numerous purposes. The phenomenon of catfighting as erotic entertainment for straight men is widely documented throughout the Internet, television, film, and even pornography. On numerous websites … web users are overwhelmingly presented with catfighting as highly sexual, even pornographic. So many websites act as sources of catfights as pornography that it would be hard to believe the catfight can be interpreted in any other way. Venturing onto … these pages (and many others) will lead a viewer to an abundance of videos and images of objectified women fighting with each other by pulling hair, scratching, and even biting each other. The interpretation of the catfight as sexy and gratifying for men is hardly uncommon on the Internet… “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catfight

So one can talk all day about a catfight as being merely a noisy altercation between domestic pets, but the inherent sexism is as obvious as the whiskers on a cat's face.

That leaves the second option, which is not caring that the term is sexist but using it anyway - maybe out of defiance ("You're not the boss of me and you can't tell me what words I can use!" ), or disdain for us bubble-wrapped snowflakes who are actually bothered by sexist discourse - or maybe just plain old sexism, which hasn't gone away, even among liberals.

[kennetha]

34. Fights between men are called cock fights. fights between women are called cat fights.

fights between airplanes are called dog fights.

What of it?

[Dream Girl]

35. It makes me clutch my pearls. Oh wait, that is sexist too!

[kentuck]

46. Depends on the usage, I suppose.

Two real cats were fighting outside my window last night... How could that be sexist?

[tonedevil]

73. Did you miss this in the OP:

There is no acceptable usage for it, unless referring to actual cats.

Your question is asked and answered.

[GusBob]

47. Gonna say what I want when I want

As long as it is within the rules of the forum

If you or anyone else has a problem with it:

1. Boo hoo I don't fucking care

2. It's your problem, not mine

[Squinch]

54. Cause that's what real men do. And five year olds.

[GusBob]

56. Meow

Such a catty thing to say! Don't pussy foot around man!

[Squinch]

68. Getting younger.

[Tipperary]

83. I truly cannot believe this thread.

First I found it funny, but then I saw what we apparently have among us here. Unbelievable.

And every comment you have made to these lowlifes is spot on. I simply did not dare to comment myself.

[Squinch]

84. There are certain subjects where all the creepy sexism crawls out from under the rocks.

Even here among supposedly liberal Democrats, it's hard to escape the fact that our culture doesn't see women as fully human.

It makes me sad, but it doesn't surprise me. And I'm getting old, so it's easier to speak my mind.

[Tipperary]

85. You are right.

This is sad.

[kennetha]

87. stop with the hyperbole

how on earth does the use of a moderately derogatory phrase like 'cat fight' for a certain style of fighting among women suggest that "our culture doesn't see women as fully human." does this of 'cock fight' to describe a fight driven by excessive male ego suggest that "out culture doesn't see men as fully human?"

[Squinch]

89. Yes kennetha. We do understand your position. You have made it clear.

[SidDithers]

57. +1...

How hard is it to not use language that others find offensive?

And to purposefully close your mind to the idea that those words propagate negative stereotypes is the type of behaviour we'd expect from Republicans, not Democrats.

Sid

[tammywammy]

60. +1 n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

80. Bingo.

[brer cat]

86. Well said, Sid.

Thanks!

[leftynyc]

94. Because it's beginning to seem that

EVERYONE has a problem with SOMETHING. And instead of just sucking it up and moving on, SOME people feel they have to show everyone how enlightened and above it by proclaiming what THEY find offensive is offensive to EVERYONE AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED EXCEPT WHEN THEY APPROVE OF THE USAGE. I'm tired of this bullshit and don't blame comedians from refusing to play in certain places. When did we become such pathetic scolds?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

104. Apparently you are more offended about people being offended by something

than the people who are offended by that something. Would you like to borrow some bubble wrap?

[leftynyc]

108. I'm sure that babble

sounded better in your head. Perhaps you just give far to much thought to the language other people use rather than concentrating on things that are actually important.

[flibbitygiblets]

109. Women are tired of "sucking it up and moving on" because silence is seen as permission

Casual sexism is death by 1000 papercuts. Women are pointing out things they've been "sucking up" for years now, and this post is one of those things. Is it really so difficult to respond in a less hostile manner, such as "wow, I never realized that my language contributed in some way to keeping women down in our society"? I'm certainly not telling anyone what they can or can't say, but we just thought you might want to know why some of us think it's offensive to categorize women as cats when they engage in a fight. Personally I think if you don't get that then you're part of a problem.

Also the "everyone has a problem with something" fallback position is a favorite trope of misogynists and racists, aka "let's make America great again" by saying whatever we want, even though (especially because?) it keeps those uppity women and POC in their place.

It's okay to grow and learn and change and evolve. Some of the things we used to think were okay to say in public, are now considered highly offensive. Stubbornly clinging to language that offends others is your choice. But don't delude yourself into thinking you're not hurting anyone by doing so.

[leftynyc]

113. First, I'm a professional woman

so I focus FAR more on things that effect my life on a daily basis. Having to work harder for less money for the same recognition. I simply can't get myself worked up over whether saying two people are having a catfight (which I've always used for ANY two people having a public fight). Just like I call men pricks, dicks and dogs and I don't see them (or anyone here) having a problem with that. THIS is why companies feel perfectly justified in simply NOT hiring women. And to compare something like this to use of the "n" word is nothing but bullshit - catfight hasn't been used for hundreds of years as a SLUR against people who were originally brought here in chains and the comparison is nothing but an attempt to put people up against the wall - I don't accept that. No wonder comedians refuse to play college campuses these days.

[Squinch]

114. Nah. Not sucking it up. Why should I?

Men don't.

[leftynyc]

118. Shrug

Then don't.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

59. "You're not the boss of me!"

OK, got it.

[alphafemale]

88. No. You're not the boss of him or anyone.

And making cat fight the equivalent of Nig-er is flat out ridiculous.

[flibbitygiblets]

110. Gonna block who I want when I want

Adios Gus. (Guessing a lot of women say that to you?)

[left-of-center2012]

52. What's your opinion on dog fights?

[nolabels]

111. Some people like to start fights, some people like to dehumanize, some people like to .......

It's also a good idea to make them engage in it so they are able to bring them down to their level.

[tonedevil]

65. Like I did, you might...

not think it would be necessary. Then, like I did, you might look through the comments on this post and realize it is probably futile.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

95. Honest question

Because I genuinely don’t understand. Why are cats sexualized as female?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

100. There are many reasons that go back centuries.

Here's a discussion of why they shouldn't be. https://www.bustle.com/articles/144945-6-reasons-cats-are-not-just-like-women-because-the-stereotypes-have-got-to-go

[Phentex]

102. Who is doing this?

The term itself refers to a fight usually between women. This is what you will find if you look up the definition. Apparently first used in 1854. I don't think anybody here is sexualizing cats one way or another. The objection is the use of a term that is by definition sexist.

[NCTraveler]

101. +1

Pretty obvious to most.

[maveric]

121. PC is killing us.

[Squinch]

127. You don't seem dead.