Ohio mom with concealed carry permit accidentally shoots and kills 2-year-old daughter

[workinclasszero]

Ohio mom with concealed carry permit accidentally shoots and kills 2-year-old daughter
Martin Cizmar 21 APR 2018 AT 22:17 ET

An Ohio mom who had a permit to carry a concealed handgun accidentally killed her 2-year-old daughter, Cleveland.com reports.

Police said the woman was handling the gun when it accidentally went off and struck her daughter in the chest.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/04/ohio-mom-concealed-carry-permit-accidentally-shoots-kills-2-year-old-daughter/

[Stinky The Clown]

1. Fuck guns. Fuck gun owners. Fuck concealed carry.

I mourn the child.

I hope the woman suffers debilitating pain for the rest of her life.

Fuck YOU, Gunner Woman.

And fuck all gun owners. Simple gun ownership IS the problem.

[workinclasszero]

4. Poor baby never had a chance

in this gun insane country where the victims of gun massacres are routinely attacked by the fascist right wing day in and day out.

That poor baby was doomed from the start.

[Squinch]

47. .

[Stinky The Clown]

59. Thanks!

[Stinky The Clown]

58. Thank you.

[BobTheSubgenius]

90. About that "debillitating pain."

What kind of commentary on our times is it that her feeling that is not a given? Or that perhaps 10's of 1000's of other will sympathize with her.

Oh...and thoughts and prayers for the gun, as well. Often a forgotten member of horror stories like this.

[Aristus]

2. ...

And the gun-nuts still can't figure out why we think certain people shouldn't have access to guns...

Poor girl never had a chance. She deserved a better mother and a longer life.

[Kirk Lover]

3. I just think every gun owner should go on the record after a situation like this occurs and just

answer the question...was it worth it?

[SoCalMusicLover]

26. Their Answer Is Yes

You have to pry the guns from their cold, dead hands.

YAY GUNS!!

[Arkansas Granny]

64. But so many times their hands are not the ones that are cold and dead.

[meadowlark5]

55. I read an article years ago interviewing a family whose child was accidentally killed by a gun

in the house by another family member. The dopes had no change in opinion. Would never give up the guns, would never think anything differently about gun ownership, "it was God's will" they said. "It was their time".

[Kirk Lover]

68. I mean rational people...not people who think everything that happens is orchestrated by a

God.

[louis-t]

69. Reminds me of the father who shot through the closet door

killing his daughter. At the hearing, they were asking family members if it was worth it. I remember some crazy lady saying "we have to have our guns cuz they perteck us!!1!11".

[Crunchy Frog]

82. People who love their guns more than they love their children

shouldn't be allowed to have either.

[treestar]

77. They would just blame the mother

and claim themselves careful with guns.

[Bettie]

101. My gun-humper brother

calls that "the price of our freedom" and says "accidents happen".

I'm a mom. I've lost a child and I understand the pain of losing a child.

I have no sympathy for this woman. She threw her child's life away.

[konnie]

5. Love, Karma

[hatrack]

6. Feel safer now?

Moron.

Whiny fearful stupid fucking thoughtless careless irresponsible little fucking SNOWFLAKE.

[Angry Dragon]

7. deserves to lose her guns

[SidDithers]

11. Deserves to be put in jail for a long time...nt

Sid

[SoCalMusicLover]

27. Not In America

They'll just say she's suffered enough. After all, AMERICA & GUNS!

[Major Nikon]

15. The more guns we proliferate into society...

the more we can expect things like this to happen. It's easy to place all the blame on her. Collective blame is a little harder to contemplate.

[workinclasszero]

74. Now imagine the NRA's wet dream of every teacher in America armed to the teeth

with deadly weapons.

We will have at least one accidental school kid killing a week, I bet.

[Major Nikon]

76. Some won't be accidental

Everyone without exception is subject to losing their shit. The only difference is the threshold. Anyone who believes they are not subject to losing their shit is lying to themselves. Once emotion trumps reason, the law of the instrument takes over.

[workinclasszero]

81. True

And teachers are going to forget it and leave it in the toilet for a kid to find, or a kid will sneak up and grab it off them, or the teacher will be showing it off and it fires, etc.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

109. Agreed

Been saying it for years. Background checks don't mean shit.
Just as none of us can predict our physical health a year or even a week from now, same goes for emotional/psychological health.

[SidDithers]

8. Jail her...

A discharge is either intentional or negligent. There's no such thing as an "accidental" discharge.

A negligent discharge that causes death needs to be punished with tens of years of jail time.

Sid

[Amimnoch]

10. This! +1

I couldn’t agree more, and was my first thought as well.

[old guy]

22. Well said!

[cstanleytech]

35. What exactly would jailing her accomplish though? She just lost her child due to her

own neglect with the gun and she is going to have to live with that fact the rest of her life.
Oh and btw I am not pro concealed carry nor pro gun nor do I own a gun incase you were wondering.

[SidDithers]

41. Why shouldn't she be jailed?...

She was negligent with a deadly instrument, and caused the death of another person through her negligence.

If she'd been driving a car at 100 mph through a school zone, and killed a pedestrian, who just happened to be her own kid, should she be excused from the consequences of her actions, just because she's in mourning?

Sid

[Ferrets are Cool]

48. +1000

[SidDithers]

53. Further...

What if she was handling her gun, in her hotel room, and negligently discharged it through the window, killing an hotel employee that just happened to be walking past the room?

Her actions prior to the discharge were exactly the same, with the only difference being that her 2 year old is now crying from the loud noise, instead of bleeding with a hole in her chest.

Should she not be jailed for the death of the hotel employee?

Sid

[TeamPooka]

66. You jail her as an example to others so they don't do what she did and kill a child

by negligence.
If you let her go who learns anything from this?
"Oh well if I kill my kid I won't go to jail because people feel sorry for me."

[moriah]

70. There must be felony conviction even if suspension of sentence.

Because she needs her gun rights removed.

And for at least a final search while she's still under the "consent for search" in a probation conditions agreement timeframe to make sure she has none in her possession. And if she ever is found with another, revocation of the suspended sentence.

Hopefully she'd happily agree and doesn't want a damn thing to do with guns ever again. But obviously she passed CCL classes and still did this. More education will not make her safer with a firearm.

[cstanleytech]

87. "Because she needs her gun rights removed. " I am not arguing with you there or really anywhere

to be honest but my question was what good would jailing her bring for something that was not intentional?

[SidDithers]

88. You didn't provide a reason why she shouldn't be jailed...

She should be jailed because she committed and act that should be illegal. Whether that's good or not is immaterial.

Intentional or not, she's responsible for the death of another person.

Sid

[moriah]

89. Message? Even suspended-imposition on those conditions would send one.

I still want to figure out how the hell she did it, though. Because allegedly she'd passed her class.

She didn't have it improperly holstered, for it to fall out like the drop discharge or "trigger pull by clothing" possibility that explains exploded toilet incident (which in that possibility safety was off).

How the hell was she "handling" her gun and managed to have the barrel covering her daughter's chest and the trigger being pulled? Safety off? Cleaning it in a hotel seems unlikely.

Given the fact she'd had the CCL training, it might actually increase her "culpable negligence" liability. If she knowingly did something stupid with her deadly weapon, it's pretty damn similar to people who get drunk and knowingly get behind the wheel. When they kill people, even their own kids, they go to jail for it.

[cstanleytech]

92. Hmmm not all drunk drivers go to jail for killing someone though.

Ethan Couch for example got parole not to mention Alice Walton are two well known examples of drunk drivers that killed someone but that did not get sentenced to jail though Couch ended up there eventually but that was for being even stupider and violating the terms of his parole.

[mythology]

96. So thus obviously we should never punish anybody ever

She decided to own a gun, presumably capable of understanding what it was capable of and still decided to not handle it safely. In doing so, she caused a substantial harm to another person.

[cstanleytech]

107. Now you are putting words in my mouth.

[Mariana]

108. They were prosecuted and sentenced.

This woman needs to be prosecuted, too. If the judge decides she doesn't need to go to prison, then so be it.

[cstanleytech]

112. I'm not arguing for her to not be prosecuted either I simply asked what would it accomplish to send

her to prison after this.
I know some things it will not accomplish though and that is it will not bring the child back nor will it really stop such things from ever happening again because the only thing that would do that would be a total ban on all guns which is currently about as likely as me hitting the powerball this week is.

[Mariana]

114. It'll prevent her from killing anyone else.

She is dangerous. If it really was accidental, she exhibited an appalling lack of concern for the safety and the lives of other people. However, it may not have been accidental. It is possible she killed this child on purpose and made it look like an accident. Let's wait and see what the investigation turns up.

[SidDithers]

115. And I asked you several times why she shouldn't be put in jail...

and you've neglected to provide a reason.

Sid

[cstanleytech]

117. Thats because I do not see what it would accomplish.

It's not like this is case after all of her killing someone in a car while having a number of DUIs in her past and refusing to stop drinking and or call a damn cab to pick her up instead of getting behind the wheel nor is this case of her getting a gun and robbing and then killing some gas station attendant.
In other words she is not an actual active threat nor is she likely to be so again other than punishing her what exactly do you think it would accomplish in this case to send her to prison Sid?

[SidDithers]

118. It would take an irresponsible gun owner off the streets...

and it would put other irresponsible gun owners on notice that they're responsible for all of the consequences of their actions with firearms.

Why do we prosecute anyone who commits a crime? To prevent them (temporarily) from again committing a crime, and to deter others from also committing that crime.

Is the person with zero DUIs any less responsible than the person with multiple DUIs, if they drive drunk and kill someone? Are they somehow less criminal, because they've never been caught before?

You're arguing that yeah, so she killed her daughter with a gun, but it was an accident, and she's never done it before, and she's suffered enough because now she has to bury her child, so let's just ignore the fact that she was entirely responsible for someone's death.

Your argument is ridiculous on its face.

ETA: My point is that there should be no such thing as an accident when dealing with guns. You lose the right to say "oops" when you become the owner of a deadly weapon. If anything happens with your gun, then you're responsible, and you need to face the consequences.

Sid

[cstanleytech]

119. There is a difference though between someone that makes a choice to drink and then drive

as the person knows its illegal to get behind the wheel if they are impaired.
Owning a registered gun and handling it near a child is not however illegal, negligent sure but generally not illegal and it may not lead to charges in this case unless of course she was impaired due to alcohol or drugs.

[SidDithers]

120. But handling her firearm isn't all she did...

She discharged her firearm, and someone died as a result of that discharge.

Her state of impairment is irrelevant. She owns a gun. The gun was in her possession. The gun was discharged. That discharge killed someone.

Are you seriously arguing that those actions are legal, unless she was impaired?

Sid

[cstanleytech]

121. "Are you seriously arguing that those actions are legal, unless she was impaired?"

No, but her lawyer probably will and given the reluctance so many pro gun supporters (no, I am not one and I would not mind them being banned entirely as I think we have entirely to many in this country but that is just my opinion) have over the government in general getting a conviction might be difficult assuming a prosecutor decides to even try which I would not be willing to wager money on it to happen.

[Crunchy Frog]

86. We need to start putting real teeth in our gun laws.

We need to show gun owners that they will suffer a major penalty if they kill their child through negligent firearm discharge, since loss of a child doesn't seem to be a sufficient deterrent.

as far as her fee fees about losing her child go, irrelevent to the issue of her guilt. The whole problem is these people who love their firearms more than they love their children. A few decades in prison without access to a gun will be a much bigger deterrent than the loss of a child that they can absolve themselves of responsibility for by saying it was an "accident" or it was "God's will", which is how many of these people think.

[LanternWaste]

123. Odd you seem unaware of what jailing someone for negligent endangerment of a child would accomplish.

Odd you seem unaware of what jailing someone for negligent endangerment of a child would accomplish.

Well, not so much 'odd', as simply 'consistent'. My bad.

[calimary]

61. She should also never be allowed to own a gun again.

She proved she’s not a responsible owner. Not that she wouldn’t ever be able to acquire guns again though.

DAMN guns.

[CaptainTruth]

93. It's negligent homicide & child endangerment, at a minimum.

[brewens]

9. If we applied what the NRA does to drunk driving, we would have had, DAMM. Drunks Against

Mad Mothers fighting for our rights to drink and drive. Look at all the businesses that will close, bartenders and cocktail waitresses and bands that tougher DUI laws would put out of work! Not to mention ruining everyone's fun. Is saving a few lives really worth all of that?

[Motley13]

12. guns don't kill people. Thoughts & prayers

[JDC]

17. The police statement threw in the obligatory Ts and Ps.

It's a pathetic joke of a commentary that all we can do in our society is mew our Thoughts and Prayers.

This story is heartbreaking

[MineralMan]

13. Yes. Legal firearms often kill innocent people.

There are stories similar to this one that appear shockingly frequently in local news. I can't imagine how anyone deals with shooting their own baby, or having another child find their gun and shooting a sibling. I truly cannot imagine it.

While it might seem tempting to call this woman in Ohio stupid or some other epithet, the horribly tragic incident was a predictable accident. Predictable, because many, many firearms owners and permit carriers don't really know how to handle firearm safely. They took a course, maybe, if it was required in their state, but a short course on firearms safety doesn't mean that the lessons are retained.

So, this woman, while staying in a hotel, pulled out her handgun for some reason and was "handling it." It "went off." The reality is that she was handling it unsafely, and she killed her baby. She now gets to spend the rest of her life dealing with that. It wasn't an "accident" that killed her baby. It was her lack of training and knowledge of firearms safety that killed her baby.

She might have thought she had that firearm to protect her and her child. That's probably why she had a handgun. She was quite obviously wrong in what she thought. How she will deal with this, I cannot imagine. It's yet another incident that joins so many other, similar incidents. When will people learn?

When will people understand?

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Agreed. We don't even know if she was a nutter. She might

have been an abused woman who was in danger.

There are two tragedies here. One, a toddler is dead at the hands of her own mom, and two people aren't waiting for the facts.

[malaise]

42. And we also don't know if she

murdered her own child.
I well remember one women drowning her two kids and blaming a black man.

[GreenPartyVoter]

65. Also true. Without more information, we only know that

a child is needlessly dead.

[workinclasszero]

75. Thats true too

and needs to be investigated.

[RhodeIslandOne]

14. She will do no time....

Oh, wait, is she black?

[Historic NY]

16. She violated all the rules in gun ownership...

1. never handle a gun in the presence of children. Leave the damn thing alone its not a toy or an accessory.

[onethatcares]

23. but, but, but

she was fondling her gun when it went off.

whoops, my bad. She was handling her gun when it went off.

Why the fuck do these people think they have to caress their damn guns all the time. Can't we send them to Afghanistan and let them fondle and caress weapons all they like.

[Stinky The Clown]

60. Actually the FIRST rule about gun ownership is just one word:

D O N ' T ! !

[workinclasszero]

79. 1. Always assume the gun is loaded. Always. Even if you just got done emptying it.

2. Never put your finger on the damn trigger unless you are actually going to shoot someone.

3. Never point your gun at a person unless you mean to shoot him/her.

[Kaleva]

18. I hope the woman suffers a lifetime of emotional torment

The two year old didn't have a chance.

This wasn't an accident. It was cold blooded murder as she ignored very basic safety rules.

Sadly, the local DA will not press charges and will label this as a tragic accident as the article already does.

[SoCalMusicLover]

30. Tie Her Tubes

Give her a choice, her guns or the ability to have kids.

I know, pure fantasy in the land of Guns.

[Hoyt]

62. Unfortunately, way too many gun-lovers think they are careful, but they aren't.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

111. "I hope the woman suffers a lifetime of emotional torment."

You hope she suffers?

"Beware of those in whom the urge to punish is strong." - Goethe

[Kaleva]

122. That is what any cold blooded killer of a defenseless child deserves.

This person will never go to prison to pay for what she did.

[TheBlackAdder]

19. I'm amazed! With an omnibearing spherical radius, how many 'accidental discharges" hit the chest!

.

A bullet could fly on any path, up, down, over there, anywhere.

But, so many of these discharges, that would seem to damage property, always seem to hit vital areas of people.

It's almost like the people said, before the shooting, "If you don't shut the fuck up, I'm gonna bust a cap in your ass!"

.

[PaulX2]

21. They Don't Count The Ones That Go Into The Floor

Just the ones that kill the kids.

[TheBlackAdder]

25. When you look all about, the small area of a child is a minute surface area, less than .25%.

.

Just SWAG statistics would place 400 accidental shootings per one chest shot. And, those numbers just go up based on the distance the victim is away from the shooter.

The probability of damaging so many other areas, bystanders, people in other units, other people's property, or just the sound of gunshots would warrant calls to police. But, there doesn't seem to be those calls, of someone firing a gun in a hotel or in a car, except for the ones that "accidentally" hit someone.

.

[Fullduplexxx]

20. "Accidently went off " see guns DO kill people

[calimary]

67. Just won the internet, Fullduplexxx!

I’ve GOT TO remember this the next time somebody yowls or whines that “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” I usually throw in an immediate “...with guns!” retort to that one. I like yours better.

[lapfog_1]

24. Would this count as a Darwin Award?

but only if that was her only child and she spends enough time in jail that she does not become pregnant again.

[SoCalMusicLover]

32. No, She Would Have Had To Kill Herself

What she did is Manslaughter.

[lame54]

29. Hey that's her god given right

[ooky]

31. This is a danger to everyone walking around in the "concealed carry" USA.

These concealed carry permit holders are supposed to be trained in gun safety when handling their guns. Looks like the training didn't work in this case.

Every time we go shopping, go to the grocery store, the movie theatre, etc. we are in the presence of these trained conceald carry permit holders all aound us, and we are relying on their training to carry these instruments of death wherever they go, without them discharging accidentally. You might be standing in a checkout line behind a woman fumbling through her purse and be shot dead. Or someone you love. The thought is chilling.

[workinclasszero]

83. Missouri has constitutional carry...no training required

Missouri

SB 656 allows for permitless concealed carry for anyone 18 years or older who may lawfully own a gun. The bill was passed by the legislature in 2016 but Governor Nixon vetoed it on June 27, 2016. The legislature reconvened for the veto-override session on September 14, 2016. The Senate voted to override the veto with a 24 – 6 vote (23 required) and the House followed through shortly thereafter with a 112 – 41 vote (109 required). The law went into effect on January 1, 2017.

Anyone can carry a deadly weapon with zero training required.


Constitutional carry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_carry#Missouri

[Iggo]

33. The gun accidently killed the kid? No. Mommy did it.

Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people.

[pwb]

36. Anyone who keeps a round in the chamber had poor weapons training. Or none.

It takes about one second to cock a pistol and chamber a round. There is absolutely no need to have a round in the chamber especially around a child. Send her to jail for endangering and taking the life of her child.

[VOX]

37. At least she didnt have an abortion.

Because in Dumbfuckistan, this tragic waste of life is an acceptable loss, according to the Holy 2nd Amendment.

[Fla Dem]

46. Pro lifers only care about embryos and fetuses in the womb.

Once the child is delivered they don't care about their welfare anymore

[workinclasszero]

84. Bingo

[USALiberal]

38. Lock her up as an example to other idiotic parents. nt

[SidDithers]

43. Abso-fucking-lutely...nt

Sid

[Iggo]

49. And as an example to other gun owners. Control your shit or lose your shit. (n/t)

[S.E. TN Liberal]

39. Response from the NRA...

This is why 2 year olds need to be fully armed and prepared to shoot first for their own protection.

[Me.]

40. What Was She Doing Playing With A Gun

In a hotel room at 11pm with her sleeping child close by?

[NCTraveler]

45. This can no longer be described as accidental.

“handling a firearm when it discharged and the child was struck in the chest.”

If you are holding a gun and it goes off while aimed at someone it is not an accident.

[Iggo]

50. Yep. That's not an accident. That's negligence. (n/t)

[LisaL]

73. She claims she dropped it and it went off.

[NCTraveler]

105. Neglince. Nt

[Freethinker65]

51. Thoughts and prayers

[mokawanis]

52. Police said the woman was handling the gun when it accidentally went off

Why do they phrase it that way? She accidentally fired the weapon but if didn't accidentally go off.

[guillaumeb]

54. What will Wayne LaPierre say about this?

Or any of the other NRA shills?

[workinclasszero]

85. That the two year old is a crisis actor

and the whole thing is a false flag set up by the left, bankrolled by George Soros so godless communist Muslim hordes can takeover American.

You know, the usual right wing shit IOW.

[guillaumeb]

116. A perfect explanation.

[Snackshack]

56. Sad to read this.

Hopefully the woman is charged accordingly with whatever the investigation turns up and this will not be deemed as a “tragic accident” because it isn’t.

[rocktivity]

57. Legally owned or not, she shouldn't have been handling it in the presence of a child

unless she was in a situation that made it necessary to use it.

According to the police department's Facebook page, the crime scene was a hotel room. To be hit at chest level, the child was probably either sitting on one of the beds in the room -- or was "handling" the gun herself.


rocktivity

[LisaL]

72. She claims she dropped the gun and it went off.

[rocktivity]

91. Dropped it where -- in her lap? On the floor?

Last edited Sun Apr 22, 2018, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)

We can only hope that the angle at which the bullet hit the child backs her up.


rocktivity

[KG]

63. no accident.

[lindysalsagal]

71. Manslaughter. Pure and simple. No excuses. Prison, and no more custody of any other kids.

Flame away.

[Crunchy Frog]

78. No such thing as a "gun accident". Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Ergo, she killed her toddler via negligent discharge of a firearm. Unless she actually did it on purpose.

She's very likely to get away with it too, since it will probably be written off as a "tragic accident".

[blake2012]

80. Arm the 2 year olds. They need to defend themselves

[lindysalsagal]

100. You know they've discussed that option at the NRA: At least give them squirt guns as soon as

they can hold a cup.....

[SunSeeker]

94. Keep your home safe, don't own a gun.

[EffieBlack]

95. This is sad. And so unnecessary.

[Jake Stern]

97. What is so thoroughly maddening about this situation, to me,

is the DA almost certainly won't lay charges on the mother saying it was a "tragic accident".

That same DA, however, would likely throw the fucking book at the mother of a child who got under the kitchen sink and ingested some household chemical.

[Demsrule86]

98. Jail her. It is called manslaughter...involuntary.

[John Fante]

99. One more kid that will never go to school.

Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool.

Europe is looking more and more attractive to me every day.

[ecstatic]

102. I think she did it on purpose.

The hot car excuse is hit or miss, so she tried the accidental shooting route. Parenting can be extremely difficult, especially during the toddler/tantrum phase, and when you mix that with postpartum depression or some other mental illness, you get incidents like this.

[Exotica]

103. She needs to go to prison for at least a decade, hopefully more.

This is a far too common outcome with guns in the house. This person deserves all the pain she will feel for the rest of her life. What a despicable human she is. What a despicable group of people ultra gun fanatics are too. They constitute a culture of death and misery.

The NRA is a domestic terrorist organisation as well. It needs to be charged under the RICO Act and shut down, with its leaders joining this child killer in prison for decades.

[struggle4progress]

104. Just think how much worse everything could have been if Mom hadn't been armed!

They might have encountered a teenager carrying a bag of Skittles and a can of watermelon juice cocktail! And what then? Does anybody ever think about that?

And the Mom might have been in reasonable fear for her life! Toddlers are dangerous! Just look at these frightening stories:

Toddler shoots her mom
Mercedes Leguizamon, CNN
Updated 12:27 AM ET, Fri April 20, 2018

2-year-old fatally shoots mother in back
April 27, 2016

How an Idaho toddler shot his mom
By Terrence McCoy
December 31, 2014

Remember: guns don't kill people -- toddlers kill people!

[Takket]

106. another family successfully defended!

[Blue_true]

110. There are so many non lethal means that people can use to protect themselves.

I just don't understand the fascination with guns.

[nadine_mn]

113. How easy is it for a gun to accidentally "go off" - sincere question

I have never handled or been around guns so I honestly have no idea

But this type of incident seems so freakishly common - people accidentally shooting themselves, the kid who was able to fire an officer's gun by reaching into the holster, kids who are playing with guns shooting other kids or parents.

Are triggers that light to pull? That is frightening.