Tony Schwartz (co-author of Art of the Deal) explains why reasoning with trumpsters doesn't work

[flibbitygiblets]

I saw him on "The Beat" with Ari Melber today. What he's saying makes a lot of sense about why people continue to support trump despite clearly knowing full well that he's a lying crook:

"What Democrats and opponents of trump get wrong again and again is they try to argue the merits, to prove that the lie is a lie, instead of recognizing that what they need to appeal to is bias of the people who are supporting him. What they need to do is say 'we'll do a better job of getting those bad guys who are after you than donald trump is'. And to have them FEEL that. Because Trump is so aggrieved, so angry, that they can relate to him as 'one of them', because they're angry too. So reason actually becomes undermining to your argument."

I'm pretty sure a lot of people are going to think or say "fuck them", but the fact is, that isn't working. And none of us are interested in coddling them either, but what Schwartz is suggesting is a different approach. Appeal to what they want. Make them believe we can give it to them.

Thoughts?

[Squinch]

1. How do you do that? What they want is for the wimmins and the POC and the gay people to get back

under the thumb. You know, where we all belong.

So how do you appeal to that emotion and tell them we'll provide that when we clearly won't?

[flibbitygiblets]

9. I don't think we should give in to any of those things

Sorry I wasn't clearer but assumed that was obvious, otherwise why would I be on this forum.

I also don't personally think that's all they want (to repress women/POC/gays); I think those biases are symptoms of being left behind financially. They want to blame someone, and those groups (plus us "libtards&quot are the red meat they've been offered.

I think Schwartz was talking more about tapping into the "we can help your lives be better, better jobs, education etc." meme. Putting a face on a bogeyman that is worse than the one they've been offered (i.e., the 1%).

I mean hey, if all this site is good for is bashing trump supporters, then enjoy I guess; I was just passing along a thought about a way to change the paradigms we're all stuck in. Believe me I haven't got this all figured out, but can't we even imagine an alternative that neither gives into their biases and "deplorable-ness" if you will, nor continues to do the same thing (trying to get them to "understand" that trump is a lying crook)? I'm pretty sure they KNOW that and don't care, and it's not just because they inherently hate women/POC/gays.

[Squinch]

13. I never said you were saying that. But, then enjoy I guess.

PS. We DO make their lives better. That doesn't appeal to them. That isn't what they are after.

[unblock]

2. wrong, we've been appealing to what the really want: good jobs, better pay, better health care, etc.

yes they've got anger, constantly stoked by donnie and foxnews and hate radio.
yes reason doesn't work, but we can't appeal to the same anger that republicans do.

instead, we need to *redirect* that anger. show them that they've been conned.
show them that it was all about the tax cut for a tiny few billionaires.
show them that they never believed in fiscal responsibility.
show them that they never believed in morality.
show them that they never believed in any of the crap they spew.
show them that donnie and putin and all the washington republicans played us all for suckers.

make them angry at hannity and donnie and the rest of them.


yeah, i know, that sounds hard, but i guarantee every other way of getting through to them is harder.

[C_U_L8R]

3. So we are supposed to appeal to their fears and prejudice ??

Just like Trump, the GOP and Faux/Breitbart/Infowars???
Yeah... fuck them.

[Solly Mack]

4. Playing to their prejudices, and a bias is a prejudice, is coddling them.

By abandoning everyone else in favor of them and their prejudices.


The "bad guys" (to their thinking) that are "after" them include immigrants, all people of color, women, and "the" gays.

So, fuck that.

[ConnorMarc]

18. Basically.

The proposition that the OP is putting forward is a total non-starter, certainly for people like me, read black.

The question the OP has to ask, themselves, is what if Obama were to put on the same exact campaign at the same exact time, everything else being the same. Would those same exact voters vote the same exact way for him?

Your answer will reveal if your OP's premise has merit or not.

[Solly Mack]

19. Yep

[Scurrilous]

5. @#$% them.

[dalton99a]

7. In other words, kiss their ass and make them feel better

Fuck that shit. Trump supporters will not vote for a Democrat - they are a waste of time.

GOTV.

[flibbitygiblets]

11. Nope, I did not say that. Thanks in advance for not incorrectly paraphrasing my words.

Here's another thought: Let's say we GOTV and blue wave ourselves to all three branches of government. Fantastic!

Now along with fixing all the shit that trumpCo f*'d up, what are we going to do about the trump supporters, because they're still there, waiting for their turn again. Are we going to continue to ignore/hate these people in this us vs. them way? Continue to let them wallow in poverty, ignorance, lack of education? Because, and I could be wrong, but I have a hunch that's what got us in this mess.

[dalton99a]

20. Most people who voted for Trump did so not because they were poor

but because they agreed with his white nationalist beliefs. Evidently Schwartz believes in the economic anxiety hypothesis, which is not supported by data.

[Cicada]

27. Trumpeters think minorities get govt help denied to them so promise them govt help

We need to help those losing out to low wage foreign workers. We need to stand up for hard working Americans getting screwed. Subsidize employers hiring those in dying Swing state rust belt towns. We can bash those abroad who cheat in trade. We can rail against foreign governments who cheat, who steal our jobs. Not by tariffs but by wage subsidies for those hiring in high unemployment zones in rust belt Ohio, rust belt Michigan, rust belt Wisconsin. Who agree to hire in growing wind energy jobs, growing solar jobs. Ohio needs factories cranking out wind mill components. Gosh I hate those darn foreign leaders who cheat on trade!

[procon]

8. You might be right, but here's the thing...

If Dems do as you suggest then we are just the Republican Lite Party, little different from the Republicans we abhor. No, we can't do that. We are not the sort of people who support biases. We are not agreeable to lying to voters, or fake news, conspiracy theories or alt realties. As Dems we've fought for equality and opposed those who wanted to divide us, to discriminate and segregate us with dividing lines to keep "us" from the scary "them".

No, your ideas, however well intentioned, is a giant leap backward. Don't take us there again, not when we've worked so hard to get this far and are barely hanging on by our fingernails as it is.

[Tatiana]

10. He has a point. These people also respond to perceived strength and not backing down.

If you take a look at the recent wins by Conor Lamb and Doug Jones, they are people who didn't get frazzled and stuck to their positions without apology. Think about it. A pro-choice Democrat just got elected in ALABAMA. And he didn't get all mealy-mouthed when questioned about it. He firmly stated his position and moved on.

We need more of these kinds of candidates. I'd put Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Joe Kennedy III, and others in this category.

We also need to support suitable candidates we find that might not win elections the first time. I don't want to give up on the Jason Kanders.

[OhNo-Really]

12. I just say "If Jesus was a Democrat, you'd vote against Him". Always shuts them up

[frogmarch]

17. And they would. It's

because the words "Democrat" and "Liberal" are buzz words to them. Any person or idea associated with either is BAD in (what passes for) their minds.

[EffieBlack]

14. The problem is that, to many of the people, the "bad guys" are people like me.

They vote Republican because they think the Democrats are to open to racial and religious minorities, LGBTQ, etc.

So if the only way to appeal to them is to convince them that Democrats will "do a better job of getting those bad guys who are after you," then I'm all about just saying "fuck them" and leaving them to themselves.

[Arazi]

15. Yup. It's all in the framing. Plenty of Dems are worried about tax reform

*please note this is different than tax cuts*

We must seize the semantics game. There's an ocean of difference w these language games that we can exploit

[Snotcicles]

16. The man made a lot of sense to me. I think I came away with a better understanding of it all. nt

[BobTheSubgenius]

21. And the beauty is....

...all you have to do is convince them you will, you don't have to deliver. They're used to that.

[robbob]

23. Umm...or we could aim for creating a political system that actually DOES make our lives better?

Get the big money billionaires out of the politician buying game, use taxes for universal health care, education and infrastructure repair and job creation?

Seems to me like a better plan then just telling more lies to get people to vote for you...

[More_Cowbell]

22. My plan is to fight to fix gerrymandering, and wait for most of them to die

Trump's supporters have an outsized importance because of gerrymandering. They're not a majority and I really think that this is their last hurrah. A lot of them have realized they were fooled, and I get through to them (a bit) by acknowledging that they thought they were voting for change, and they were lied to. (I have to bite my tongue not to tell them that they were idiots for believing obvious lies and unsupported assertions.)

Lots of them are lost to any attempt at reason, and I don't waste time on them.

[JI7]

24. they need to Feel that we will kick out the mexicans, lock up the blacks, condemn the gays etc

[BigmanPigman]

25. I watched the interview and he did make sense.

One thing that he mentioned was that the fucking moron is a salesman and con artist who repeated the same shtick over and over until it became the cult's mantra. It is based on human emotion (anger is a good motivator and is universal).

[zaj]

26. This may be true, but is HORRIFYING

Maybe I just can't picture the path that doesn't lead to a race to be the worst people on earth. Someone has to stand against the fears rooted in the biases so many people carry about the cause of their difficulties.

We have to find the path that allows us to persuade many of these people without enabling their worst actions and beliefs.

[ConnorMarc]

28. I Agree

Wholeheartedly.