Starbucks, If there ever was a incident that sums up white privilege

[brettdale]

This is it, Im guessing no white person in History has ever been kicked out and
arrested at a starbucks while waiting for a friend.

[Mosby]

1. I white lady who did not buy anything was allowed into the bathroom

These two guys were told they couldn't use the bathroom because they weren't customers.

This was before they were kicked out and arrested.

[Honeycombe8]

16. Letting you use the bathroom is different, tho.

Going in to sit down for an extended period of time w/o buying something is different from just using the bathroom & leaving.

Most eateries have a policy of people having to be customers to sit there at their tables for extended periods of time. Nothing unusual in that. And then if they were told they had to buy something, and they refused...that's unusual. As was calling the cops.

[crazycatlady]

38. Starbucks is a place where someone could also camp out all day

Now I know this varies by location, but I know many people (including myself) who have used a coffee shop/Starbucks as an office and there all day. (I never bought more than one drink).

ETA city locations this probably wouldn't work as they're often smaller.

[Honeycombe8]

44. Well, that's what I'm saying. We don't have the whole story.

I don't like jumping the gun. I consistently take this position when something seems to happen that is discriminatory, whether it's a black person, a woman, a Muslim, etc. Things that seem to happen that are bad can happen without it having anything to do with the person being black, female, Muslim, etc. Of course, sometimes things happen that ARE discriminatory.

It depends on different facts about this location and this incident. If I had been told to buy something, and I didn't, but kept sitting there, and I had been arrested, would it be because I'm female? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends. If I don't get a job, is it because I'm female? Or "mature"? Maybe.

In any case, the rule does exist, and Starbucks has apologized for the rule being taken to extreme, which is the appropriate response. If the mgr hadn't called law enforcement, this wouldn't have happened. If the guys had followed the rule & bought a cup of coffee, this wouldn't have happened, either. Why wouldn't they buy a cup of coffee? I keep coming back to that. If they had told me to buy something, I would have. Why wouldn't someone do that? Makes no sense. It's sort of like flipping off the mgr.

[Beartracks]

76. Good post. n/t

[Iggo]

89. Here's the story.

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2018/04/14/philadelphia-starbucks-arrest-video/

[heaven05]

45. racism

Pure and simple. If manager and worker who did not like those two 'threatening' AA males sitting in their place of business were white. Welcome to the 50's and massa and Missy in charg again, they think. Trump unleashed this venomous hatred running through the veins of his hardcore base and to be truthful, a lot of 'others' who are getting a taste of the perceived power that their grand parents, great grand parents had over AA life..

Hundreds of black people should start sitting in Starbucks. One or two get a small regular coffee and tell the coffee shop they are waiting for someone.

I hope they sue Starbucks and the INDIVIDUAL'S who took umbrage with their being there. He'll Danny's had the same situation with two AA Secret Service people a while back. AmeriKKKa is finally showing it's true nature that has always been explained away with bullshit no one believed.

I am glad to see this hate exhibited so openly now. At least the AA can really see how far we have come since 1865 and emancipation

[Honeycombe8]

47. You're jumping the gun and assuming things that you don't know yet.

You could be right. But you could be wrong. You don't have all the facts yet.

I always ALWAYS want all the facts before I judge. Just because a person is female or older does not mean that's why she didn't get hired at Starbucks. That may be the reason, and that's discrimination (they don't want those "slow old people" working there, or "we have enough women, and they're not as reliable&quot . But maybe there was another reason. Unless you have all the facts, you don't know for sure.

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon to assume the worst, or to assume the best. But to some, no set of facts will suffice. This is discrimination. Or this is not discrimination. Same thing, either way, when a judgment is made w/o all the facts.

[BumRushDaShow]

52. ...

[heaven05]

71. I know ameriKKKa in this era.

Just like the 50's. With you there is benefit of doubt, with me there are many, many years of experience with ameriKKKans. Every word is expected in ALL making excuses for their brethren. This is so typical of those "who wait for ALL the facts, when modern media does not give you that or any way out in videos such as this. Have a happy day.

[BumRushDaShow]

48. "I am glad to see this hate exhibited so openly now."

The sad part is that even when that happens, you still have people in complete denial that it could possibly be happening including posting in this thread. They try to find every excuse in the book regarding how it can't be what we just saw.

And Lordy since one of the guys had corn rows they had to be thugs!!111!!!!!11!!1

[heaven05]

72. true

Always

[DonCoquixote]

75. in some starbux that is worse

Because the ones in the "less suburban" ends of town are often plagued with drug addicts (of all shapes, sizes AND colors.) For them to just let you in was a big jump, the sort that was never extended to anyone4 with any skin pgment. Now, to be fair, the Starbux I speak of was plagued with really violent people (again, of all colors, especially the nasty Gothic pale whose daddy was a lawyer.)

[BigmanPigman]

2. I can't believe this happened in Phila of all places.

When I lived there the city was 40% black. A person's skin color didn't matter at all. Where was this Starbucks located?

[vi5]

3. It's still very diverse...

....there is also a lot of racial animosity and suspicion. For as integrated a city as it is, a lot of the white people I knew from Philly were and are fairly racist.

[oberliner]

4. 18th and Spruce

[BigmanPigman]

6. I lived a few block away (13th and Lombard).

That area was integrated and not racist when I lived, went to school and worked there. I guess things changed for the worse. That sucks.

[Tree-Hugger]

5. Philly is racist AF

Source: born and raised, visit there several times per week.

There are many pockets of Philly that are fairly racist. The part I am originally from is Trump country. There are times I feel like I am in Militia-ville Berks County when I drive through certain neighborhoods. Don't get me started on many of the cops I know.

This was at 18th and Spruce, which is pretty froofroo. They probably scared of those brown folks.

I have sat in many a Philly Starbucks waiting for a friend before ordering. Shit, I just did it today in the 'burbs. Never had a cop get me.

That said, there's plenty of progressive values in Philly and it's a lovely town overall.

[jberryhill]

10. A lot of weird up there in Berks

[Tavarious Jackson]

22. Portland Oregon is a super progressive city that is also racist as fuck

It has a severe racist history. In the primary it went heavy for Bernie, why? Because they believe liberals are for civil rights ad equality for lgbt and women. They hate the word. They want to be called progressive and focus on economic issues only. I live here. I know the ugly of my city

[defacto7]

70. I've lived in Portland since the '60s

I have no idea what you're talking about. You must live in Clackamas Co. or something. This has no resemblance to the Portland I know. There's racism and discrimination in every city but comparatively speaking, Portland is mild.

[Tavarious Jackson]

87. Nope. I live in Multnomah County.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portland-race-against-the-past-white-supremacy/

[flibbitygiblets]

80. I would not call Portland racist today, just very gentrified

I know Oregon as a state has a racist past, but most Portlanders are not racist today, that I've noticed. Now, get outside of Portland, anywhere in Oregon except Eugene, and then, yes you're talking 'racist as fuck'.

I've lived here since '04, and would never live in a city that's "racist as fuck". There's just not a lot of non-whites with whom to be friends. Part of this is because housing costs have skyrocketed, and that tends to mean "whiter", unfortunately; but I think it also has to do with weather to some extent as well. I do know that the Portland police have a bad track record with regard to people of color. But in my experience that does not reflect the vast majority of Portlanders.

[TomSlick]

7. Has Starbucks responded to this?

Starbucks as a chain needs to get in front of this.

[BumRushDaShow]

9. They responded because it was their manager who called the cops

I am just coming in from being out with family all day and just saw this story.

Here is a local news story with the Starbucks response -

Starbucks issues apology after video of arrest in Philly store goes viral

Updated 43 mins ago
PHILADELPHIA (WPVI) --
Starbucks has issued an apology for the incident that led to the arrest of two men at a Philadelphia location earlier this week.

The company released the following statement Saturday:

"We apologize to the two individuals and our customers and are disappointed this led to an arrest. We take these matters seriously and clearly have more work to do when it comes to how we handle incidents in our stores. We are reviewing our policies and will continue to engage with the community and the police department to try to ensure these types of situations never happen in any of our stores."



Video of that arrest, which took place on Thursday, was posted to Twitter. It now has more than 2 million views and has prompted an internal investigation within the Philadelphia Police Department.

Link to tweet

(TEXT

Melissa DePino @missydepino

@Starbucks The police were called because these men hadn’t ordered anything. They were waiting for a friend to show up, who did as they were taken out in handcuffs for doing nothing. All the other white ppl are wondering why it’s never happened to us when we do the same thing.
5:12 PM - Apr 12, 2018 )

http://6abc.com/starbucks-apologizes-after-video-of-arrest-in-philly-store-goes-viral-/3342007/

I have only been to Starbucks maybe 4 times in my life. I'm done.

[TheBlackAdder]

12. Normally, seating & restroom rules apply when parades, festivals & 100% crowded. Empty seats here.

[BumRushDaShow]

27. This particular chain store is in the Rittenhouse Square area of Philly

which includes the residences of the old gentry.

When they (or their "hired help" ) complain, the police respond.

This is why up a ways from there in North Philly, activists and the NAACP demanded that Temple University's proposed football stadium be moved from the residential North Philadelphia neighborhoods to the Rittenhouse Square area of the city instead. With that pronouncement, arms started flapping, the huffing and puffing vapors ensued, and the audacity of making such a ridiculous suggestion was pooh-poohed (of course). Tut tut.

[TheBlackAdder]

86. I would visit the 16th & Walnut store. Rittenhouse is fully developed, no football field possible.

[BumRushDaShow]

88. North Philly where they want the stadium is fully developed too.

after Temple (my mother's alma mater) bought up buildings and homes along and just off Broad St. and let them sit vacant and left to rot for 30 years until the city finally cracked down on them to clean up THEIR mess and construct on the property or get out.

And Rittenhouse Square has a big park sitting right there and you can bowl down buildings around it to make it so. Nothing stopping them from doing that except. White people.

And I have only been a couple times and now, no more. My Maxwell House instant, my little Keurig, or Wawa coffee if I must, does me just fine.

[TheBlackAdder]

93. There are several superfund sites to the east of Temple, close by. Cheap land, closer to school.

[BumRushDaShow]

95. Temple's ORIGINAL stadium was not far from where I live

which is nowhere near North Philly. It was abandoned when Temple started using the South Philly stadiums instead (first the Vet and later the Linc). They left the building there for decades unused and eventually tore it down and sold the property to a mega church (Enon Tabernacle) that built a huge church facility with stadium seating on the site. The church utilizes the field for parking and youth activities. The place is packed on Sundays.





The school has a campus in Ambler too, which is not in North Philly.

I know that blacks are not allowed to live in neighborhoods with housing. Just. Because. But that's the way this country is.

[TheBlackAdder]

100. Only a moron would suggest Rittenhouse Square. Why not Ben Franklin Parkway? That was stolen land.

[BumRushDaShow]

102. After all these posts

you still miss the fact that the demand was the NAACP head being facetious?

But it was done to teach and make people THINK and "see" what is wrong here in terms of disparate treatment of communities with residences at stake.

None of the city's other large universities have a huge stadium sitting in the middle of the city in this day and time. I.e., St. Joe's, La Salle, Widner & Drexel don't have any such. And the only one that does is Penn, and Penn's Franklin Field was built in 1895 when there was little residential development in that part of West Philly and it's currently the oldest in the NCAA.

[TheBlackAdder]

103. I know they were, based on my last post which is just as absurd. I'm not sure you are.

[BumRushDaShow]

104. Okay. We good.

[HopeAgain]

28. First, they double down on these men being "individuals,"

not "customers," then they talk about an "incident" that lead to an arrest, when in fact, the only incident was a baseless arrest. Starbucks can't just say "we fucked up?"

Their coffee sucks anyway, I'm not ever going back to one.

[BumRushDaShow]

29. Usually more than one black person together is a "gang"

so they probably thought they were being "generous".

[Tipperary]

35. And one of the cops is black.

[BumRushDaShow]

39. The police chief is black too but take note that this is irrelevant

Gonna do a DSB here with this -

Based on the video (and I was born and raised here in Philly and live here), it seems most of the cops that responded to this were bike cops. I.e., they are usually rolling around downtown and in some neighborhoods and probably responded the fastest. Alternately, I expect the black cop was probably coming from a car that eventually arrived.

The chief released a statement (video) that claimed the cops were lawful in their arrest. However I expect that this was based on the word of the manager and what their purported "policy" is (which supposedly is not a corporate policy). So I think as time goes on, there will be egg on this PD's face.

And the LEO organization wonders why WE the citizens elected Larry Krasner (noted former civil rights and criminal DEFENSE attorney) as the District Attorney. He is coming into an outfit that will take some time to break but he is invested into do.

The irony here, based on what I just read (and I posted an excerpt below) is that they "friend" they were meeting was white.

The mayor is outraged -

Philly mayor: Starbucks arrests ‘exemplify what racial discrimination looks like in 2018’

By Katie ColaneriApril 14, 2018

Updated: 5:07 p.m.

—

Philadelphia Mayor Jim Kenney has asked the city’s Commission on Human Relations to review Starbucks’ policies and procedures following the controversial arrests of two black men at a Center City location.

“I am heartbroken to see Philadelphia in the headlines for an incident that — at least based on what we know at this point — appears to exemplify what racial discrimination looks like in 2018,” Kenney said in a statement Saturday evening. “For many, Starbucks is not just a place to buy a cup of coffee, but a place to meet up with friends or family members, or to get some work done. Like all retail establishments in our city, Starbucks should be a place where everyone is treated the same, no matter the color of their skin.”

The incident, which was captured on a Twitter video, has sparked outrage against Starbucks and the Philadelphia Police Department on social media, with many Twitter users alleging that the arrests were racially motivated.

In the video posted by @MelissaDePino at 5:12 p.m. Thursday, police can be seen arresting two black men at a Starbucks located at 18th and Spruce streets near Rittenhouse Square. Another man in the video, who is white, can be seen and heard speaking to one of the officers, saying, “This is ridiculous. What did they get called for, because there are two black guys sitting here meeting me?”

https://whyy.org/articles/philly-police-investigating-arrest-of-two-men-at-starbucks-for-doing-nothing/

[liberalhistorian]

8. That's one of the first things I thought of when

I heard about this; so many times I've gone into coffee shops and gotten settled, gone to the bathroom, done work for awhile, etc., before I ever even ordered anything and NOBODY, not ONCE, has EVER said anything to me at all about it, I was left completely in peace. I've stayed at coffee shops doing work for hours after finishing whatever it is I've ordered and not once, not EVER, has anyone said anything at all.

This incident is beyond infuriating and Exhibit A for fucking idiots who continue to insist that we're in a "post-racial era" and that whites actually experience "more discrimination" (yes, I've heard that shit).

[yardwork]

11. What happened is inexcusable. Somebody needs to be fired.

[lame54]

13. they should have been working on their screenplays...

then they would have left them alone

[uponit7771]

14. Jus ... wow !!! Why would the police even get involved in something like this !?!?!?!?

[Honeycombe8]

15. I used to loiter at a place with friends, when I was a teen.

They came and told us to leave. We did. When we showed up again, they called the cops on us, who told us to leave and not come back, unless we were there to buy stuff...and then leave.

We were all white. Most businesses expect you to buy stuff when you use their facilities for any length of time.

[EffieBlack]

18. People sit in Starbucks all the time without buying anything

Even the white patrons of that particular shop have said they sit in there without buying anything.

And because YOU at some point in your life were asked to leave someplace somewhere does not make this situation ok. These weren't teenagers "loitering." These were two grown men sitting quietly in a public place waiting for a friend.

Too many people are making excuses for unacceptable behavior. And pointing to some incident that happened to you somewhere sometime in the past does not mean that THIS situation wasn't wrong and that this kind of thing doesn't happen too often to black men in America.

These men should NOT have had the police called on them and the police should NOT have arrested them. And I don't care what happened to you in your youth - those men would NOT have been arrested and marched off in handcuffs had they been white. Period.

[Honeycombe8]

51. Not in any Starbucks I've been to. So it depends on THAT location. nt

[BumRushDaShow]

64. Do you sit in a Starbucks to use the wifi and chat with friends

or do you go in for 5 minutes to get a coffee and leave?

[EffieBlack]

65. It happens I every Starbucks Ive been to - and Ive been in plenty

Especially in big city Starbucks, the baristas and managers are far too busy to go around policing the customers to determine who has ordered something, who is planning to order, how long ago they ordered, etc. If the place isn’t so crowded that people are standing in line waiting for tables, they don’t care, as long as the people are not disruptive.

And considering other patrons - all white - were also sitting in that Starbucks without buying anything and weren’t accosted, much less arrested, the arrest of these men is unacceptable.

Please stop making excuses for the inexcusable.

[dalton99a]

56. Absolutely.

http://abc7chicago.com/what-a-witness-says-happened-during-phila-starbucks-arrests/3342444/

"The two men stayed calm and did not raise their voices once. Everyone else in the Starbucks, however, was appalled," she added.

Lauren said another woman had entered the Starbucks minutes before the men were arrested and was given the bathroom code without having to buy anything and that another person in the restaurant at the time of the incident "announced that she had been sitting at Starbucks for the past couple of hours without buying anything."

[tonedevil]

20. Why weren't you arrested?

Would your white self care to speculate? My white self knows exactly why and it doesn't involve you being morally superior.

[Honeycombe8]

53. I see the truth hurts.

I wasn't arrested because I did what I was told to do. Immediately and respectfully. If the mg had said buy something, I would have, to pay for the privilege of loitering there. But since this was a repeat of my being there, they didn't warn, they just called the cops.

I wasn't arrested because there was no cause to. The mgr hadn't told us to leave that time. The point was to scare us away permanently. Plus, I was 17, I think.

Maybe the Starbucks incident was discrimination. Maybe it wasn't. You don't have all the facts yet. I prefer to withhold judgment until I have all the facts.

[yardwork]

59. You aren't withholding judgment, and you don't have even the minimal facts.

You're behaving exactly like many white people behave in situations like this. You are assuming that there must be a "good reason" that doesn't involve racism, you're ignoring the evidence that is known, you're applying irrelevant and anecdotal experiences, and you're working hard to avoid recognizing what this is. You're posting over and over your point of view, which is the opposite of "withholding judgement."

I'm sorry to be harsh but this is a problem.

It is laudable to wait until you have more evidence before passing judgement. That means waiting silently.

[EffieBlack]

67. Exactly

[ChubbyStar]

69. Thank You

That so needed to be said!

[EffieBlack]

66. Bullshit

I am sick and tired of hearing this kind of crap from white people ”Nothing bad happened to ME because *I* behaved myself,” i.e., when it happens to black people, it’s because THEY did something to DESERVE it.

You can’t be blamed for your white privilege - you didn’t ask for it, and it’s not your fault we live in a racist society. But your refusal to even acknowledge it - and, on top of that, your insistence on blaming black people for being victims of situations that don’t happen to you (and using the fact that they DON’T happen to you as some kind of justification for blaming us) is really disgusting.

You need to do some serious thinking. And in the meantime, I suggest you do less talking and more listening. You have a lot to learn about the society you live in, the people who inhabit it and the dynamics that inform it.

[yardwork]

73. This white person agrees with everything you just posted!

And I would like to add something - if this country survives, it will be because of black women. Black women with clear vision, strength of character, and courage who go to the polls and vote for Democrats.

You're helping save me, and I appreciate it.

[Iggo]

82. .

[BumRushDaShow]

74. "I did what I was told to do."

[BumRushDaShow]

23. Here is what is different from the olden days...

(that I was part of at one time)

With the onset of the "modern" internet of the '90s, the idea of the "Internet/wifi cafe" came into existence to cater to the up and coming millenials. Private and chain shops shuffled their interiors (in many cases, to include sofas, lounge chairs, and some even added board games and a mini library) to accommodate patrons who would stay for awhile with friends, which usually resulted in them ordering a good amount of (expensive) specialty coffee/tea & food (usually bagels, sandwiches/paninis). This is part of the business model of the "internet cafe".

Where this particular store is located is in the toney Rittenhouse Square part of the downtown here in Philly, makes it even more notable as to the bias.

Here are Google review photos of the inside, where you see a long row of sofas and soft lounge chairs, etc.

IMHO, the blowback should be fierce - and should also occur against our handkerchief head police chief here as well.

[radius777]

90. one quibble - the net cafe emerged from Gen-X slacker culture,

which started with mall culture, hanging out at bookstores, at PC cafe shops (where you had to pay for PC or videogame time), etc.

Many popular shows throughout the 80's and 90's (Friends, Seinfeld, etc) centered around hanging out at coffee shops or diners.

And yes you are correct that this 'lounging' atmosphere is what establishments like Starbucks brand themselves on.

[BumRushDaShow]

91. Perhaps with the youngest Gen-Xers

because older ones moved into the craft beer thing... But the "internet cafe" lounge didn't really take off until well in the 2000s when "free public wifi" became a "thing" (where it was ubiquitous in places like Japan) because there was no "web" in the 1980s. I.e., the web "officially" happened in the mid-90s heralded by a new Communications Act and early browsers like Mosaic and Netscape and eventually IE 1.0 (I used to use them back then). The graphical stuff was few and far between and sites were still pretty much generic text (with various backgrounds and maybe some little yellow-highlighted "NEW" graphic next to a series of links ).

[heaven05]

49. so

It's okay this happened then, since it happened to you and your friends. I have your explanation right. Or are you just saying....

[yardwork]

54. They weren't loitering. They were waiting for a business associate.

Several white witnesses have stated that they too were sitting in that Starbucks at the same time, without buying anything, and at least one had used the bathroom. Their business associate arrived while the men were being handcuffed and protested. He was ignored. Watch the video.

These two men were singled out, treated differently, had the cops called on them, were handcuffed and arrested, were kept in jail until 2 am, BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK.

Stop trying to defend this. That's the problem.

[Honeycombe8]

57. That's actually not what the white customers said.

They said they HAD in the past sat w/o buying at some Starbucks.

Maybe these guys were discriminated against. Maybe not. I'll wait to judge when I have all the facts.

If you think waiting for all the facts is "defending this," you don't understand the rule of law. That's the problem.

I was looking for a job when I was in my late 50s. I didn't get most of them. Was it because I was female and "mature"? Was I discriminated against because I was female? Or because I was older? Can you make that judgment? Or do you need more facts?

[yardwork]

60. You aren't withholding judgement. You're pushing your judgement.

[EffieBlack]

68. You made your point.

You really should just stop commenting now since you clearly have no idea what you sound like.

[EffieBlack]

17. Exhibit Y showing why economic equality is not enough.

[BumRushDaShow]

62. THIS

They don't see wealth first. They see "dark skin" first and foremost.

[Beartracks]

79. Very good point. n/t

[JCanete]

94. yes, but who needs to be told this. The point isn't to only focus on economic justice, the point is

to actually make it part of the fight, because it is not sufficient or effective to try to win this fight without actually taking a piece of the most effective fighting tool back from those who have consolidated it, and who USE IT every which way to fight against us whether we fight back or not.

Money is influence. Some basic redresses, which granted hardly level the playing field, would at least start to remove some of that higher ground that puts us at such a disadvantage, and particularly, those of us who have always been least served by our system. If you don't see this component as a fundamental necessity, I would very much like to hear your reasoning.

[EffieBlack]

96. Apparently, lots of people need to be told this

Money is often, but not always, influence. And those men were not arrested and hauled out of that Starbucks because of a lack of money or, for that matter, any reason having anything to do with money. It was their black skin. That’s not an economic problem.

The problem with your argument, in my view, is that many of the people who insist that economic issues must always be included in any fight for racial equality, really have no interest in the latter beyond using it as a hook or bootstrap and using the people who care about race issues to advance their economic interests. But when it comes to the actual fight, they always downplay race, tell us not to make too big a deal about it, first things first, etc. And they use their privilege and positions of power to elbow us and our concerns out of the way.

I can’t tell you how many times folks have tried to enlist me and my colleagues in their economic battles, only to ignore us and our concerns and then, once that particular battle is over, they are nowhere to be found when we need them on civil rights.

I think Sanders is a perfect example of this. He wants minorities to buy into and co-sign his fight against “the millionaires and billionaires” but when we lean in on him to address racial issues, he reduces them to poverty, prisons and law enforcement, as if all black people are poor or facing jail. and when we try to talk about civil rights outside of his narrow economic equality frame, he dismisses our efforts as “identity politics.”

For me, the bottom line is that the fight for economic equality is pointless without a strong push for civil rights and dismantling of systemic racism. The problem is that many of the people driving the economic equality train either don’t recognize or so enjoy - either wittingly or unwittingly - the benefits of white supremacy and privilege that they insist on ignoring or subordinating issues of racial equality to their own interests. In other words, the very racial dynamics that perpetuate racial discrimination are also at play within the various classes that are attempting to climb the economic ladder. And unless those issues are dealt with, it won’t matter how much more money people are making or saving - we will still be an unequal society.

[JCanete]

108. I don't think your description fits me. Crap, this got long. Totally understand if you skim or skip.

I do disagree with you regarding Sanders and his statement about identity politics though.
The ONLY thing he referred to as identity politics was "vote for me because I'm a woman..." "Vote for me because I'm latino..." His point wasn't that we shouldn't vote for more women or latinos, etc. in fact he stated nearly in the same breath that that is very important, but his point, which he articulated, was that these people have to actually be standing for issues that affect these groups...they can't just drape themselves in that identity alone and be considered to be advocates for people who share that identity. Hell, I could point out some glaring examples of the truth of that. So you saying that it was about these other non-economic issues of race doesn't fit with what he literally said.

I can understand you still having issues with what he said because from your perspective, he may be piggy-backing on an animosity that already exists in these white voter pockets against a much broader, less defined definition of "identity politics..." I personally think he's trying to judo the term to more positive ends, since it already has momentum, but I understand finding that language troublesome.

And I agree, Sanders puts his foot in his mouth sometimes, and in some ways he may just be too distanced from the black experience in America to not do so. That is a failing, but its a failing that I don't think is reflected in his voting record or his advocacy over the course of his career. He has more often than not been ahead of the times when it comes to issues of civil justice. This is, granted, a privilege he has enjoyed as being a safe congressman and Senator up in Vermont, but his record is still his record.

Regarding money, I meant that an infusion of wealth into black communities...a rise of political influence and a magnification of these voices that comes with purchasing power which can shape media and messaging, better legal representation, etc. would have an impact. You're right, that regardless of class right now, a black individual, whether middle class or upper middle class, can not count on that to protect them against police brutality or worse. That is still a product of a marginalization of power that makes people of color easy prey, and by easy prey, I mean invisibled, ignored, and unsupported by the system and the public at large.

Your argument is that money sometimes doesn't help though, is absolutely true. We only need to look at Germany in the 30's to know that a community fairly integrated economically could be stripped of all of it and rounded up. That Germany was experiencing economic strife was certainly a catalyst. That people were looking for somebody to blame and somebody to take from and that they already unquestionably, had some long-standing prejudices against Jewish people was certainly the powder waiting for somebody to light the fuse.

The ability of those in power, and generally(barring unusual circumstances) it is people with money who steer that boat, to use these deep hatreds to divide us so violently, particularly but hardly exclusively as you know better than me, once we get to these points of particular national crisis, is the very thing that I think we need to deprogram. Its the reason I still think a message of economic justice is most effective because it gives people a common boogie man. It tries at least, to shift the animosities people have off of each other and upwards at the oligarchs.

I do not think for a second that we should set social justice on the back-burner. I don't think people of color or other marginalized communities should sign on to anything that amounts to their up-front commitment, with the promise of addressing their social ills later down the line. I don't think we can even fight for economic justice without showcasing the realities that racism and bigotry plays in keeping the playing field uneven.

What I think is that a loud economic justice message opens the door to have conversations about social justice with people who have otherwise made up their minds or had their minds made up for them. It is a matter of showing them what they could have and soon, showing them who stands in the way of it, and making their prejudices and misconceptions the anchor that keeps them from achieving what they want. Framing those toxic beliefs not in the evilness of those who hold them, but as a tool of those in power to keep them punching in the wrong direction, is I think, how we do this. Get them to let their guard down because we show them that holding onto their beliefs has not gotten them anywhere. I know this doesn't work when you just try to show people that they are voting for their own economic harm. That's why giving them an alternative us vs them narrative is so important. That's why shooting for the stars is better than incrementalism...it is the prize they could have right around the corner.

It is that us vs them that they are holding onto right now that is feeding their stupid choices today, and their inability to see how government is working for them when we propose small incremental changes is not helpful in shaking them out of their sediment of thought.

Now, just because i'm advocating for this doesn't mean that I'm convinced it will work. Its dicey. You actually go after the big money in a big way and there will certainly be a bloodbath. But I have yet to hear a practical alternative that could actually work. What we are doing now and have been doing for the last 30 years as a party, in my opinion, has not shown itself to be working. Would you disagree? I think what I haven't heard when people say the economic justice message is not enough, is how we win without it, and no, tweaking the playing field to help those getting screwed is not a message of economic justice...that isn't a fight for justice...that is advocating charity in lieu of justice. That isn't in the same league. It takes naming the problem to tackle the problem.

How do we win alternatively? What is the magic sauce that gets us to victory, if we don't shave off 5, 10 percent of the constituency that votes republican? How do we win even if we do win, but don't turn that win into an obvious massive public victory in the first 2 years? Doing it the way we are doing it is a backslide. We make a tiny bit of progress, the media destroys us, we do not go directly to the people with a message of populism, we lose seats and sit gridlocked or in the minority for the next 6 years. And then hand it off to republicans, hopefully for 4 this time, but the time before that for 8. Republicans do so much more damage than democrats do good, and being gridlocked into doing nothing STILL benefits the status quo, which is still a backslide. Current laws still benefit the mega-rich to an unreasonable degree. Wealth continues to be consolidated. That suggests to me that we need to be more drastic, not less.

[kcr]

98. Who needs to be told economic justice is necessary?

Not the ones who know that economic justice is tied to social justice. The only people who need to be told anything are those who don't know about social inequality. They're ignorant of history when they believe that the fight for economic justice alone will lift all boats. They're the ones that need to be told.

[JCanete]

106. but that's mostly a straw-man. I very much do think people need to be told that economic justice has

to be fought for...that getting in a room with bankers and figuring out a compromise is not ever ever ever going to come close to righting this playing field. That it is actually going to take fighting. That its actually going to take naming the rich the problem. That is certainly not what most democrats are doing. Social justice on the other hand, who is actually not advocating for these things but just for economic justice? Did somebody say "daca's not my problem, if we raise the minimum wage that will fix it...?"

[kcr]

109. So. You don't think anyone needs to be told about social justice

But those who fight for social justice need to be told about economic justice. Because they wouldn't know anything about that.

Okay then. No, I don't see any strawman here, sorry.

[JCanete]

110. I don't know what politician you would be talking about who is fighting for economic justice,

but thinks there's no need for social justice. If there is one, then point to that person. Maybe there are some I'm just not very familiar with.

[EffieBlack]

19. "When I stand, I'm loitering. When I walk, I'm prowling. When I run. I'm escaping"

Melvin Van Peebles.

[MariaCSR]

24. Amazing quote.

[dalton99a]

50. +1

[Initech]

21. Oh if you think that's bad- check out the assholes on Twitter.

There's some pretty atrocious stuff coming from the hardcore racists.

[EffieBlack]

30. The racists are one thing. The "I'm not racist, but there's must be more to the story" apologists

are another. THEY'RE the problem. They're the one who make excuses for the cops, who reveal an underlying belief that black people are inherently criminal.

[Blue_Adept]

25. It's pretty clear that this isn't corporate policy

Though Starbucks makes for an easy larger target. The demands for instant apologies is understandable but frustrating because they have to find out what happened first and that DOES take time.

The main culprit will come down to two things; the cops that shouldn't have arrested them and the manager/shift lead that made the call to them (or whoever instructed them to).

[samnsara]

34. starbucks is a seattle company with seattle values..this isnt one of them...

[Blue_Adept]

36. There are 13,930 stores as of 2017

And managers for each of them. Some are gonna have some real assholes in charge just because of human nature.

[BumRushDaShow]

40. Then they should be removed.

This is what we call "institutionalized and systemic racism". It is "institutionalized" and "baked into the system", whether that "institution" is a school district, a set of chain stores or other business, or a government entity.

[Blue_Adept]

41. I agree completely

I'm in no way saying keep the people who made the decision. I'm simply saying that the top level corporate side has to do their proper due diligence to find out what happened less they open themselves to more liability.

The internet age demands instant responses and that doesn't always happen.

[BumRushDaShow]

46. Starbucks corporate has a problem

one of which was doing like Boston Market and expanding beyond their ability to manage the franchises, let alone realizing how there is a need to manage staff training. What is about to happen to them is a case in point.

I recall some time ago where there was a photo circulated about an intersection in NYC with 4 Starbucks - I think one as a standalone, another in a department store, another in a pharmacy, and I think a 4th in a bookstore.

[JNelson6563]

26. I think it shows

Way too many whities are pants pissing scared. Why do you think they voted for the racist? Having a black guy at the top for 8 years terrified many. Idiots.

[bdamomma]

99. plus the black guy

that we had for 8 years was intelligent too, racists don't like intelligent black people.

[JNelson6563]

101. I believe the term is "uppity".

[Croney]

31. Well, in all fairness to the worried white manager,

I read that the two men arrested were commercial real estate professionals. You know how criminal those people can appear. 🙄

[heaven05]

55. I'm waiting

For the "he had an outstanding ticket in 1990" crowd to show up..

[no_hypocrisy]

32. 911 for a "disturbance" and "trespassing"?

OK, having been "escorted" off a college campus by police for no justifiable legal reason MYSELF decades ago, and having suffered the humiliation too, and in Pennsylvania to boot, here are my thoughts.

First, here is the closest criminal statute I could find, Disorderly Conduct, as the police were allegedly called b/c of a "disturbance": https://law.justia.com/codes/pennsylvania/2010/title-18/5503 As you can see, just chilling in a public place and using the toilet doesn't fall into any of these situations.

Next, 9-1-1 call b/c young guys won't leave your store. REALLY? THAT'S an emergency these days? Where were their AK-15s like Parkland? And "trespassing"?

Next, I think the Civil Rights Act discusses whether ANYONE can accommodate public places including restaurants. If the police had just TALKED TO them, those guys would have explained they were waiting for a third guy. But the police were focused on making Starbucks happy, and not defending the Constitution. Even the police supervisor didn't get it.

For just sitting down, these young men were ARRESTED and LED OUT IN HANDCUFFS WITH CAMERAS RECORDING IT, broadcast to their families and friends. The Police Commissioner needs to D.C. to the African-American History Museum and the Holocaust Museum for a "refresher".


And FWIW, I would PAY these guys to be their ATTORNEY! HOLY EFF!

[tblue37]

37. The white guy talking to the cops is the person they were waiting for, but even when he

explained, the cops still insisted on arresting the men because, as the cop said, it was "too late," because they had not left when told to, so they were committing "defiant trespassing. "

It took SIX cops to arrest two men who were not doing anything wrong and who made no effort to resist. And then even after learning they were mistaken, the cops insisted on following through with humiliating and drastically inconveniencing these innocent men.

[BumRushDaShow]

42. The Police Commissioner here is black.

[samnsara]

33. im surprised anyone was busted at starbucks...

[blueinredohio]

43. Hope they get millions when they sue

[meadowlark5]

58. Me too - I am so sick of these scared, paranoid white people

It must be miserable living day to day worried and frightened everytime you come into contact with anyone who isn't white. Such a scary place this country is - not knowing if at any second that black or brown skinned person will take out a machete and cut your head off or grab you and rape you or steal your stuff. Especially when sitting in such a questionable place like Starbucks

[yardwork]

61. As a white woman, I share your disgust with the delicate snowflake whites.

They need to grow up and stop listening to hate. They are being brainwashed into acting like terrified little zombies. Their behavior is ruining our country. Literally.

[Takket]

63. so, is anyone going to starbucks anymore?

the left is outraged over the racism...

the right is outraged over... well.... "Happy Holidays" on the cups.......

so who is left?

I wonder what will upset right wingers more..... blatant outright racism, or the happy holidays thing. going to place my bet on the latter.

[Blue_Adept]

78. Of course they are

There are the millions and millions who will never hear of this story.

[EffieBlack]

83. Or wont care because they think it does not affect them

Or think “there must be more to the story.”

[democratisphere]

77. Tables and chairs are for paying customers, regardless of your race, religion

or the way you part your hair. If you use the bathroom, use it and leave. If you have to wait to use the bathroom, wait standing, use it and leave. If one takes advantage of an owner or manager they are going to be pissed.

[EffieBlack]

84. There were people in there that day who did not buy anything and THEY were not arrested

There was a woman who came in, used the bathroom (after getting the code from the barista), sat down, didn't buy anything and SHE wasn’t arrested. She’s one of the white people on the video demanding to know why these men were being arrested. (Apparently, the white customers that day didn’t know the Starbucks “Rules to Avoid Being Handcuffed, Arrested and Jailed” that you so unequivocally and confidently laid out for us.)

Your suggestion that these black men were arrested because they did something wrong - and that’s exactly what you’re suggesting although you didn’t come out and say it - is terrible for anyone to do. But coming from a Democrat on a progressive board, is not only reprehensible, it’s absolutely mind-boggling.

[uponit7771]

85. You're kidding right? There were white people there who did similar to the black men and weren't

... arrested.

[Iggo]

81. Let me know when they fire the manager.

'Til then, fuck Starbucks.

[PCIntern]

92. Literally one block from where I'm living.

Just saying....

[Johnny2X2X]

97. Fear and racism infects most

As a white man who grew up with friends and family from many backgrounds, I can say that the constant barrage of propaganda about young black men is incredibly difficult to be immune to. The message broadcast 24/7 in all forms of media is that black men are to be feared. I can't count how many times I've noticed that minors accused of crime have their pictures shown in print and on the local evening news exclusively only if they are black or Hispanic. White teenagers who commit crimes are never shown on camera and their stories will be talked about in different terms than if a black teenager is in trouble. White kids who commit crimes are "troubled teens who need our understanding." Black teens who commit crimes are are portrayed as "predators and monsters." The portrayal of adult black men is equally as skewed. And we know the court system treats blacks far differently than whites too.

This constant messaging is incredibly harmful. It's exactly why someone calls the police on these 2 men for sitting at Starbucks. This manager might not be overtly racist, but they have succumbed to the fear that is being drilled into them whenever they consume any form of media.

It is our responsibility to expose and root out this latent racism whenever we see it. Write letters to your local media, there are good people that work there, make sure they are aware of the different standards they are applying based on race.

[BumRushDaShow]

105. Thank you for your post.

Last edited Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Everything in it is spot on. And the sad thing is that young males in the black community are not immune from it either, and internalize it.

This is why Barack Obama was so special to the black community because he embodied the opposite of that. And since he and his family had to walk on a tightrope through landmines, they provided 8 years of a counter-argument to the pounding negative messaging so at least some segment of the greater population and a good chunk of the black population, could see some positive.

[Johnny2X2X]

107. Agree

You see fear and distrust between minorities more than you would think too.

The country has been programmed to be afraid of young black men. The first step towards fixing it is to recognize it and fight to stop the programming. There is a ton of work to do.