General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould we blame Trump voters? Should we just give up on them?
While some argue that we should blame Trump voters, I think we should recognize that all humans are tribal, and that propaganda works.
I dont think we should blame Trump voters. We should blame the propagandists and billionaires that manipulated public opinion. Mercer. Murdoch. The Koches. Ryan and McConnell.
I will always be able to find a way to welcome a GOP voter who repents.
But I blame GOP billionaires and their propaganda for lying to the GOP voters.
This puts it well. (And if you havent seen the hateful anti-Islamic ads that Bob Mercer paid for, please watch this video. Its an eye opener.)
Link to tweet
Mercer video:
Link to tweet
?s=20
JI7
(89,281 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)JI7
(89,281 posts)They heard and saw him attack minorities and they voted for it.
It's not bigots that are the victims.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Because not just Fox but also Maureen Dowd told this lie.
And they think Dems are baby killers because the right wing media machine says so.
And they hear many other lies about Dems- every night on Tucker Carlson and every day on Rush Limbaugh.
Check out The brainwashing of my Dad. Even good people can be corrupted by propaganda.
JI7
(89,281 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Propaganda works.
Check out The Brainwashing of my Dad.
Fox and Limbaugh and the Russians are highly skilled propagandists. They can fool people. Mostly people who dont follow the news closely. But people can be taken in without wanting to be.
TrishaJ
(798 posts)ridicule a handicapped man and voted for it.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)One key propaganda technique of Fox and Limbaugh is to ignore things that hurt the GOP.
Fox barely mentioned him ridiculing a handicapped person. Just like they barely covered the Mueller indictments.
Thanks for bringing this up. This is a really important propaganda technique that the right wing machine uses. First, they ignore GOP negatives.
Second, they falsely accuse Dems of the same. Corrupt? What about Hillary? (A lie, of course)
Third, they minimize or excuse the negatives. Just locker room talk
JI7
(89,281 posts)and they did see the other stuff. they excused it.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Yet a majority supported Hitler, even till the end of the war. Was that because Germans were some sort of morally defective race of humans? Hitler and the Nazis were badly defective.
But the German populace was propagandized. Propaganda works. It worked in Nazi Germany, it works in Russia and America today.
Every dictatorship works to co-opt media because they know propaganda works.
We should recognize that. A decent number of Fox watchers will be so brainwashed they won't WANT to go to other news sources. That happens in every culture where propaganda exists. Humans are susceptible to propaganda.
And the people most responsible are the GOP propagandists.
JI7
(89,281 posts)supported the horror happening to the jews.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)If that was Americans exposed to the same propaganda, they'd have done the same thing.
That's why the Milgram psychology experiments in the 1950s were SO POWERFUL. (That's where he showed Americans would deliver painful shocks to other humans as long as someone was telling them to.)
Americans had thought the Germans were defective. That there was something deeply morally wrong about them. And Milgram showed Americans were capable of the same thing. The conclusion is that all humans are basically the same. And that it's society, culture, and propaganda that turns people into monsters.
The Nazis were masters of propaganda. I fear the modern American GOP is too.
JI7
(89,281 posts)and Americans were bigots also which is why many did not want to allow jews to come here.
many who support trump hate jews and others.
it's hate , bigotry, vileness.
they are not victims of propaganda.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Historian Karl Dietrich Bracher argued that the success of Nazi ideology can only be understood via the role of propaganda in the Third Reich. The Nazis modern techniques of opinion-formation in order to create a truly religio-psychological phenomenon1 made the propaganda especially powerful.
The Third Reich represents the evolution of a partnership between masses and demagogue, a co-productionfor example, the invitation to believe the idea that the Jews had simply been removed to external work camps, and not murdered. What the Nazis were really saying was that their truth lay deeper than their lies and that their lies were merely a permissible methodology since the end always justified the means. In historian Aristotle Kallis view, the identification of propaganda with falsification is misleading: Propaganda is a form of truth reshaped through the lens of regime intentions.7 From the perspective of the Reich, the Nazis were selling German truth rather than British falsehood.8
The idea of people willingly misled offends our notion of man as rational. A more accurate representation of the psychology of the Third Reich would be to conceive of a partnership in wishful thinking in which the masses were self-deluded as well as other-deluded. Persuasion in such cases offers an idea of solidarity and the target of that persuasion is more co-conspirator than victim, an invitation to share in the creation of a hyperbolic fiction.9 Successful persuasion in business, media, or government, does not make the error of asking for belief. It makes no pretense of objectivity. The notion of persuasion as manipulative evokes a passive recipient and a hypodermic or stimulus-response form; but a more sophisticated idea is that of an invocation to partnership.10
Thus, the Third Reich was the emanation of a collective as well as an individuals imagination. Submersible parts of the ideology, such as the antagonism to religion, the euthanasia campaign, the massacre of Jews, could all have been discovered by the determined enquirer. One theory advanced as an explanation of this is that of group narcissism, which is described by historian and psychologist Jay Y. Gonen as one of the most important sources of human aggression: In a world that is seen through a narcissistic tunnel vision, only oneself or ones group has any rights.11
The purpose of Nazi propaganda was not to brainwash ordinary Germans, and it was not intended to deceive the masses even though it did enable the movement to gain new recruits. The principal objective, according to historian Neil Gregor, was to absorb the individual into a mass of like-minded people, and the purpose of the suggestion was not to deceive but to articulate that which the crowd already believed.12
Exactly the propaganda used on the GOP base, and their behavior, is what the article says Hitler's regime used.
The Nazis wouldn't have killed millions without propaganda. Trump wouldn't have been elected without propaganda.
Regardless of what the root cause is - we must work to stop propaganda if we want to take the ocuntry back.
JI7
(89,281 posts)were ok with it. no amount of propaganda will make their support for that ok.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The lies don't work on people who aren't open to them.
brush
(53,944 posts)abuser. They made that decision, and don't try it with the brainwashing/propaganda.
The rest of the population was subjected to that crap and rejected it.
elleng
(131,253 posts)and figure out a way to minimize the damage to us and the world. Won't be easy, but
https://georgelakoff.com/2016/07/23/understanding-trump-2/
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)This time maybe even vote?
fucking right!
Gothmog
(145,751 posts)The former head of the Texas Democratic Party spent years and a ton of money focusing on winning white East Texas Voters. The former chair was from east Texas and was convinced that the state party could win statewide races if we just focused on white voters in east Texas. East Texas has places like Vidor (look it up) and there are still sun down towns in East Texas (which means that a non-white needs to be out of that town before sundown). These voters are motivated by ignorance and racism.
The Texas Democratic Party is now making progress with a new Chairman named Gilberto Hinojosa and a new vice chair Fredericka Philips. Chairman Hinojosa and the party are now focusing on areas other than Vidor and east Texas and we are making progress. Trump won Texas by only 9 points (Romney won by 17).
Based on what I have seen, the Democratic Party should not waste time on white trump voters.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)In 2020, they will be a minority of Americans under 18 years old. The future is diverse and colorful and that is a good thing. White men overwhelmingly vote republican, a majority of white women too, and Trump is their attempt to keep their privileges. They'd like nothing more than formalize apartheid in the USA.
Any white people who have a problem with not reaching out to Trump voters instead of helping to overcome disenfranchisement of minorities is, to be frank, a part of the problem. We have finite resource. Let's not waste them on Trump voters.
Gothmog
(145,751 posts)The voter id law was designed to suppress the vote
mountain grammy
(26,662 posts)who think we should just shoot libruls. Yes, these folks are a waste of time.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not just Trump voters, but also Cruz voters, Bush voters, Rubio voters, etc.
jalan48
(13,905 posts)Democrats, that's their choice.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)What's important is that the other 80% are kept well-informed and politically active.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)If Trump voters or hardcore Bernie or bust voters chose to vote with us, so be it, but they get nothing to vote with us. That is where I stand on it all.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Luckily, we don't have to persuade anyone to win elections. This is a dem-majority country and we need to stop the GOP from cheating and GOTV. And we will win.
But on a personal level, when you talk to a Trump voter, I think it's useful to remember most are deeply propagandized, and it's not totally their fault. It's Rupert Murdoch's fault. It's Rush Limbaugh's fault.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)CountAllVotes
(20,878 posts)They are a waste of air. Why bother with them and their demented/greed-ridden minds (a quality I've noted with every stupid one of them)?
We need to DUMP TRUMP ASAP!!!
Squinch
(51,072 posts)What does giving up on Trump voters look like to you? What does not giving up on them look like to you? You say you will "welcome a Trump voter who repents." What the hell are you going to do? Send flowers? They're going to do what they're going to do. You have little to do with it.
Am I going to specifically spend a lot of effort on Trump voters, begging them to change their ways? Of course not. Why would any of us do that? It would be stupid.
Am I going to GOTV as much as I am able, but concentrate on likely Democratic voters? Of course I am.
So what is it you want to know? Do I blame Trump voters for the fact that Trump is president? Of course I do! They voted for him!
This question is inane and silly. Get out the vote.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)This is the situation where the question matters.
I walk up to a Trump voter. Do I think this guy is a fool and an idiot and is unredeemable and I hate him?
Or do I think I feel bad for this guy, who has been duped by right wing propaganda?
Of course its not totally binary. But i think its much more the latter - the propaganda - than the former.
And that affects our interactions with people. It means I have a lot more understanding and sympathy. Its not that the GOP base is entirely evil, hateful, and destructive of America.
Its that the GOP base has been lied to by billionaires. In pursuit of tax cuts for the rich.
JI7
(89,281 posts)Look at his attacks on womenand minorities.
That shit appealed to them so they voted for it.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)There are two propaganda tacks taken to get people to vote for an open bigot.
1. The right has spent decades telling white Americans that minorities are to blame. Lies that say minorities take jobs through affirmative action. Lies that say minorities take college places away from whites. So GOP propaganda has TURNED people into bigots.
2. The right wing propaganda machine also tells people that no matter how bad a Republican is - the Democrats are worse! That's why if you go to the Daily Caller right now you'll see an article saying that Democrats are racist.
Here's a good video showing this GOP propaganda at work - saying that Democrats are racist (Ben Shapiro)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=Vdl6zuSToO8
We have to stop the right wing propaganda if we want to save America. Most GOP voters are not to blame.
JI7
(89,281 posts)Hillary was worse because she thought innocent black people being shot was a bad thing.
Hillary was worse because she viewed a Muslim woman as being like a daughter to her.
Squinch
(51,072 posts)I sincerely doubt they do.
This question has been asked over and over and over and over and over. It has been shown to provide a bonanza of divisiveness every time it is asked, so I do tend to wonder why some still insist on beating this horse.
"I think they're venal idiots" vs. "I think they are poor misguided souls." Over and over and over and over and over. The fact is that none of them gives a rat's ass which side of that argument you or I fall on.
Your sympathetic thoughts when you meet Trump voters are not going to change their votes any more than my antipathy toward them. They are going to do what they are going to do. You have little to do with it.
The whole question is just a big honking navel gaze.
Get. Out. The. Vote.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)First , the most important thing we can do is GOTV.
But second, we have to attack the right wing propaganda machine. Thats the WHOLE reason the president is still in office and not impeached.
Lots of Trump voters - not all - are just brainwashed and we can reach them.
The first step is telling every GOP voter you know that the right wing propaganda machine is lying to them to get votes for billionaires. We can break the propaganda hold by talking to people we know face to face.
Squinch
(51,072 posts)propaganda machine?
And when you go up to your GOP friends and tell them they are being fooled, they are going to call you an elitist liberal, and tell you to go to hell.
So we're back to the start: this is an inane conversation and amounts to nothing more than a navel gaze.
Get. Out. The. Vote.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)(And stand up for yourself. If someone tells me to go to hell I can defend myself. You can too.)
If you want something else to do, other actions to take, look at the three items I just posted below.
And Ill add two more to that: go to
- http://republiconradio.com and take action there. A DU member runs that site which aims to push back on Limbaugh.
- buy Dems in your life a copy of Lakoffs Dont think of an Elephant which covers right wing propaganda.
GOTV. And fight back against propaganda. Propaganda has a huge effect and we can do something about it.
Squinch
(51,072 posts)work any better on allies than it does on opponents.
No, I'm not going to campaign against Fox and GOP propaganda, because "campaign against Fox and GOP propaganda" is a meaningless phrase. Your instructions to tell Trump voters that they are being fed propaganda is not "doing something about" propaganda.
I'm not asking you for suggestions of "something else to do." I'll have all my time taken up with getting out the vote.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)If you see Fox on, ask the owner to turn it off.
And GOTV!
Squinch
(51,072 posts)it are glib, and none of them are actually going to reduce the proliferation of propaganda.
Telling republicans that they are having the wool pulled over their eyes will entrench them in their dedication to that wool.
Writing to newspapers about Fox and Limbaugh are not going to stop Fox and Limbaugh.
The original question of "should we blame or give up on Trump voters?" is a navel gaze.
The way we win is to get out the vote.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)I gave concrete suggestions you can do TODAY.
Letters to the editor have HUGE impact.
You cant win an argument you dont make. Make the anti propaganda case.
Squinch
(51,072 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Good night
peggysue2
(10,845 posts)on them, completely, no excuses. They were led into the darkness?? Makes them sound like a bunch of bewildered children. Would that apply to White Nationalists, the Bretibart crew, Alt-right fanatics? KKK members?
People voted for the Trumpster because they wanted to stick it to the rest of us: Libtards, women, people of color, gays, the educated, the people who had more than they had, immigrants, etc. Pick your scapegoat. They certainly did.
All those vile ads worked because the people who responded had an underlying ability to buy into the lies, the deceit, the hate. Just like the Germans did once upon a time. The Trumpster and his acolytes legitimized the rage, social media amplified it and the Russians flooded the campaign with money, laughing with absolute glee.
Trump supporters walked into the darkness. It's their choice to stay there or walk into the light.
In the meantime, the rest of us should concentrate on winning elections. Because right now? That's the only thing that matters.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)You're saying it's all the Trump voters' fault.
No way. I'm saying they were propagandized.
Propaganda works. Many Germans during WWII supported Hitler too. HITLER. Why? Because propaganda works.
The GOP base believes that Hillary is the devil, because their media bubble tells them that.
Here's why the GOP base supports Trump. Because Fox is propaganda.
We need to blame the propagandists. NOT all the average Americans who don't pay that much attention to news and are propagandized. The 10% of deplorables -- they are at fault. But a good number of GOP base voters are just propagandized.
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)They picked their tribe. I'm not going out of my way for people who hate, but don't even know me. I guess I'm a fail on the liberal scale, but I'm using my eyes and unlike trump voters, I can see.
The ostrich thing, with the head in the sand was during Obamas reign. We are the majority and the unafraid, without Russia they are nothing but losers. Like the population of Russia, who allowed thugs daily to steal their hard earned income.
peggysue2
(10,845 posts)But they can now see with their own eyes and lives that the Trumpster has done nothing to improve their circumstances.
Has King Coal come back to its days of glory? No. And it won't.
Has their healthcare become what Trump promised? No. And it won't because Trump is a total ignoramus when it comes to healthcare.
Are their children being better educated. No. In fact, in Red State Oklahoma, the teachers are striking for a living wage and school supplies. Just as the teachers in West Virginia did.
Are they rolling in money after the cut, cut, cut Tax Reform. No. Because the benefits went to the highest earners.
Has The Wall been built with Mexican money? No, because it was always a fairytale.
And the Beat goes on.
Yes, Fox News is a total propaganda machine as it's been for the last two decades. As is right-wing radio. But Republicans lap it up willingly because it confirms all their biases, fears and latent rage. They like the authoritarian spin, the 'I can fix everything' nonsense coming out of Trump and his enablers. They also like that Trump has no respect for anything or anyone.
There are Republicans who have had enough, who recognized the Trumpster BS for what was and continues to be. They will vote with Dems because the only way this ends is for the GOP to lose everywhere. A number of Republican writers, lawyers, intellectuals, pundits have said exactly this: that no one should vote Republican, not even for the position of dogcatcher.
It's the only way the Republican leadership and resistent, heel-digging GOP electorate will wake from the stupor; they get locked out of all levels of power and influence.
Then we can have a conversation.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:20 AM - Edit history (1)
activism goes, and if they think they can make progress one on one or local organizations- then they should stop yapping about it and do it already. From what I see, theyre all trying to convince other people to do this! LOL- this is not a job for women and POC. They hate us, its a waster of time talking to them if youre a woman.
So have at it guys but spare those of us who have been leading the resistance without enough of your help.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)First we all can attack propaganda. Anytime you see Fox on anywhere, tell the owner its bad for America and ask them to turn it off.
Second, theres activism everywhere in every demographic. Men and women and white and black and straight and gay, minorities and wealthy white guys all alike. Lets stay together and support each other.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)GOP ass. Its really all to easy for white men to ignore the threats against us- and against POC. Because they dont hate you- their ignorance and fear is not of you.
But this is why these suggestions to court these assholes come from white men. You never hear women or POC suggest this- because its an insult to the core of who we are.
Every big protest- starting with the airports fighting the immigration has been 2:1 female to men- look at pics of any march and youll notice that after the first few rows of men upfront- the vast majority of people doing the work is women. We vote a good 15% more Dem than men do- and do so reliably. And POC are the most reliable Dems of all. To suggest that any of us should cow tow to those that hate us is ridiculous and deeply insulting. Dont test our patience to suggest this is an actual viable strategy for us to put energy into. Nope, these assholes are not going to be reliable Dems- and you dismiss the most reliable Dems of all when you give these bigots your time and energy. Just no.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)And in every era.
Propaganda was core to Hitlers regime. To Putin. To Chavez. Mao . Stalin.
And Today the Chinese control their media for propaganda purposes.
Dont kow tow to anyone. Tell them they are full of shit because they believe lies from the GOP propaganda media. But dont sleep on Fox and Limbaugh. They have a huge effect and we can stop them.
And you and I and everyone else at DU will stand together.
Ps at the march for our lives the male / female split was approx 1:1. Tons of support from parents and grandparents with their kids. It was inspiring to see.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And I took a close look at a few dozen pics of many of the March for our Lives marches, and its not even close to a 50/50 split. Go enlarge some pics, the only pace where it looks evenly balanced is if you look at the front few rows. Beyond that, its definitely a majority of women. Were reliably showing up for the fight.
treestar
(82,383 posts)or lies. People are not helpless to believe whatever they hear. They have to want to believe it more than they want to be objective.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,028 posts)in supporting this illegitimate president.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)I blame the GOP for building a systematic propaganda machine to influence ignorant people through fear and division.
Some trump voters are truly beyond redemption. But most are just deeply propagandized.
This comment alone shows why this discussion is important to have.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,028 posts)vulnerabilities as humans - that ads work, that repetition of falsehoods will convert to truths for some, that we are so tribal, that humans can be inflicted by greed, lust for power...
As I like to say, humans v 1.0 are pretty flawed - we need some major fixes for v 2.0.
We certainly are engineering our own destruction, however.
american_ideals
(613 posts)from book
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1849043523/
I thought the above was really good. Discusses why and how propaganda works.
One key point that the author makes. Propaganda works best on the UNinformed. On the low-information voter. On the voter who doesn't pay much attention to politics.
So maybe that's a guideline. If you're a GOP voter who pays a lot of attention to the news, we should hold you in contempt. And if you're a GOP voter who doesn't pay much attention to the news or politics, we should feel somewhat bad at how you are fooled and instead hold in contempt the propagandists.
Ace Rothstein
(3,195 posts)We need to identify them and work on getting their votes in the future. The majority are a lost cause, unfortunately.
populistdriven
(5,644 posts)american_ideals
(613 posts)Love the Maza videos - he is really good at conveying the power of right-wing propaganda.
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)the angry haters, the ideologues, the craven cynics or the willfully ignorant
Among your political opponents distinguish between those who care about both facts and fairness and those who respect neither
Be charitable towards those who really want to be fair but may get their facts wrong: most people are that way sometimes and might still be reached
Be very wary of those who can get their facts right but have no concern for fairness: they are our political sociopaths.
american_ideals
(613 posts)You're right. But that means that 10% of America today are political sociopaths. The GOP and their media machine has done great damage to America.
The good news is that 25%+ of voters supported Nixon when he was impeached. We don't need everyone on board.
Demsrule86
(68,735 posts)Time to put the big tent back...only way we get a majority.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)The Republican Party has birthed a monster. A modern day Frankenstein.
haele
(12,686 posts)While I can pity a Trump voter, I can't sympathse with them and I can't brush away the responsibility they carry for their own fear, immature and narrow-minded certainty, or their hateful Glee at sticking it to anyone who doesn't belong to their little clans of true believers.
On edit - their snowglobe existence is filled with the emotional opaites of authoritarian control over their bodies and minds, and they eagerly choose to hand over their individual rights and autonomy just to let the rich or religious leaders take responsibility.
Like all addicts, they have to ride their self-delusions down until they finally have to deal with reality before they'll even consider what they've done and the effects on the real world those actions cause. You can't sympathse too much when you're constantly cleaning up after them and their theiving, cheating "leaders".
Haele
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)How do we fight against the billionaire propaganda machine backed by the Russian State professional propaganda machine? Because in the absence of a viable solution, this argument gets really
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Action you can take:
- Anytime you see Fox on, tell the owner its bad for America and ask them to turn it off.
- Tell all your friends and family that Limbaugh and Fox are lying to them, acting as an arm of billionaires who need votes for their pro-wealthy policies.
- write to your local paper about Fox and Limbaugh. Say that Sinclair is getting all the attention now, but Fox is owned by a GOP billionaire, and was built by a Nixon operative, with the intent of pushing GOP policies.
Im doing all of those things. Can you do them with me?
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Start a grassroots movement to combat the RW media giants. And that's a fair argument to make if you divorce it from the turning of the deplorables argument. I don't think anyone on here is going to condemn you for wanting to strip SBG of their power. However, you must realize that, until it occurs, it is hopeless to try and recruit tRump supporters to our side. As long as the RW controls the narrative, facts and logical reasoning will continue to fall on deaf ears. That's just my 2 cents. There have been isolated cases of former tRump supporters seeing the light, but not enough to convince me there is a straightforward solution or that it is a winning strategy to win back the government.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Its like dealing with cult members, you need to give hem new information. Telling them how the Koches donated $500k to Ryan the day after the tax cut for billioniares, and telling them Fox and Limbaugh stoke fear to get votes for GOP billionaires does work. A common response is both parties do it, and then you can come back with only one party is the party of billionaires. Look at how the GOP tried to cut everyones healthcare to give tax cuts to the rich. And Fox and Limbaugh propagandized for those cuts. Why? Because the right wing media machines goal is to help GOP billionaires .
You cant win an argument you dont make, is how I feel. Lets not assume these will fall on deaf ears. Lets make the argument, to the group who are merely brainwashed and not hard core racists or selfish and greedy.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)impairment. However, they've done great harm to our country and they must not be allowed to forget that.
Forgive? Perhaps, but only if they are genuinely contrite and admit that their decision to vote for this disgrace of a human being was motivated primarily by their own hate, fear and bigotry. It needs to be made clear to them that they need to come to terms with the poison inside of them if they are ever to be forgiven on any level. Then, and only then, should one even consider forgiving them.
Forget? Never! They should never be allowed to forget the real damage their abject stupidity has done to this nation, and we better not forget that either. Unless they intend to actually use their pea brains at the polls, they need to step aside and let the adults in the room do the thinking and make all the tough decisions for society. The nation simply can't afford their stupidity any longer.
Beartracks
(12,821 posts)... knew exactly what flavors would be appealing to them.
=========
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Above theres an article on slate by an expert in Nazi propaganda. It talks about how propagandists find the emotional buttons to push.
Iggo
(47,581 posts)Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)The first question is easy to answer. Anyone that voted for trump shares part of the blame for him being elected. I also think that anyone that was eligible to vote, that didn't vote for Clinton, also shoulders some of that blame.
As for giving up on trump voters, I think we already have given up on some of them years ago, and rightfully so. However, there are ones that we definitely shouldn't be giving up on.
When we get somebody that sat out the last election, or voted third party, we put an additional vote in our column. That's good. But when we get somebody that voted for trump in the last election to vote for our candidate instead of trump, that puts an additional vote in our column, AND subtract's one from their's. Thats even better.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)The hardcore deplorables we should hold responsible.
But the people who are really destroying and dividing America are the propagandists.
Murdoch. Mercer. Adelson. Koch. Bannon. Ruddy at Newsmax. Paul Singer at Wash Examiner. Whoever funds the Federalist. Roger Ailes, who is probably in hell right now for the poor and sick people he screwed. Shapiro. Domenech. AshLee Strong. Paul Ryan. Hannity. Carlson. Anyone who considers themselves part of the conservative "media", which is really a propaganda machine that has nothing to do with the strong free American press the founders envisioned.
But when I see a low-information voter who hates Hillary for stupid false reasons, I think "That's mostly Rupert Murdoch's fault."
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)I'd imagine some of the other MS honchos like Paul Allen as well, some of the Apple honchos likely are, Ellison perhaps, even Cuban is a 'never Trumper' though he's not THAT rich, nowhere near the Kochs or Adelsons of the world. Obviously Soros ...
For now, our side is going to have to adopt these strategies until we can get back into power and outlaw some of this chicanery.
To set the stage we should be hammering home the idea that the GOP/Trump are eviscerating environmental and worker-safety regulations NOW, so that when the ads start for November, the public is AWARE of what these fucks are doing to the environment. We need powerful ads with like Pics of Bald Eagles standing on an oil derrick in the middle of a pristine wildernesses, images of cities underwater from sea-level rise, exploding oil drilling platforms, pics of oil-drenched otters, and polar bears on tiny ice islands, all that kind of stuff. That's just a start ...
Additionally we should have some ads featuring the terrible bigotry of the wingnuts ... images of swastikas painted on the side of synogogues and then pics of hateful imagery posted on FB by the perps, hopefully in their MAGA caps and stuff like that. Pics of the NC neo-nazi rally, video of Trump going 'some fine people', etc.
Although unlike the GOP, we'll need to actually FOLLOW THE LAW (which we all know they are exempt from) in terms gathering the info needed to properly target these ads but as long as we do, I got no problem with our retaliating using their 'general tactics' of targeting. You know, fuck 'em, they caught us with our pants down in 2016, and we cannot let that happen again, unanswered, in 2018. This is basically a type of civil war we have going, and the stakes are too high. We have to WIN FIRST to attempt to correct the problems with our elections being caused by dark money and military-grade psy-ops that the GOP are engaged in against our population.
Of course we still need a carefully crafted platform full of promises to help working folk/the middle class, protect unions and worker rights/safety, reasonable gun control measures, and we need to hammer that all home, too.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)I don't disagree with most of what you propose.
BUT. The achilles heel of the GOP is that they are a party controlled by billionaires, that is out to screw the working class. That is why they used to scream "class warfare!!" whenever Dems brought up rich people. The "1%" term finally broke through that bullshit.
Now the goal of the GOP is to use bothsidesism. "Both sides take money from billionaires!!"
That is BULL. SHIT. The GOP is the party of billionaires out to screw average Americans.
There are D billionaires. Gates is one. They tend to spend money on helping improve the world.
And then there are GOP billionaires like Koch and Adelson and Mercer who spend money on helping their own bottom line. Helping put money in their own pockets. Helping screw the working class.
Here's the bottom line. There is only ONE party controlled by billionaires. Only one party that wants to screw average Americans by destroying government to cut taxes on the rich.
And that is a political winner issue. The GOP is the party of billionaires out to screw average Americans. That statement is KRYPTONITE for republicans. Because it is true. Conor Lamb ran on that statement and won in a hugely red area. That's a political winner issue.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)The trick is ... we have to show now OUR billionaires are not acting out of 'self-interest', not like THEIR Billionaires are.
Bill Gates won't expand his fortune by protecting the environment. The Koch Brothers, OTOH, literally enrich themselves by promoting GOP policies to that enable them to destroy the environment.
I know it's a distinction likely to fly over the heads of the 30%, but they're lost anyway.
MOST Americans, I'd like to think, are smart enough to understand the distinction. And we'd be on the side of right here, so that makes it easier.
IOW, I really don't know that we are in a position to be able to beat the evil Billionaires ... without help from the good Billionaires ... at this moment in time. Not when we're up against the military-grade psy-ops bullshit that evil ones are unleashing upon our Nation. Too many of the People are too ignorant is the bottom-line.
I think we pretty much have to resolve ourselves to the kind of propaganda campaign their side is engaged in (but of course, on the side of what is good and right), at least for now. Evil ... has gathered too strong a foothold.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)That's the summary of our current situation.
And on Dems courting political donations, I thought Hillary put it well. She says she asks for money, but she tells the donors that her policies might hurt them. And if they still donate, she takes the money.
And just tell people: There is ONE party that is the party of billionaires. One party that wants to cut middle-class healthcare to give tax cuts to billionaires.
We can attack the real problem - American Oligarchs, otherwise known as GOP billionaires - without compromising our principles.
elocs
(22,622 posts)because they didn't like or hated Clinton, or that they wanted a Republican to nominate justices to the Supreme Court and judges in general (oh that more on the Left had grasped that concept) and they would certainly be open to voting, or choosing to stay home, rather than voting for Trump again.
Of course there were many thousands on the Left who didn't like or hated Clinton and couldn't bring themselves to vote for her either. Unfortunately the stark reality was that either Trump or Clinton were going to be the next president. Clearly if the choice is between bad and terrible the rational person will do what they can to prevent terrible from prevailing, and this time there can be no excuse for claiming ignorance.
exboyfil
(17,865 posts)Criticize individuals and their actions. Always try to sell yourself within the confines of your platform and belief system.
LuvLoogie
(7,062 posts)Relatives that may have voted for him just get kind of sheepish around me these days. They know they screwed the pooch, cooked it breakfast, and took it home to meet the parents.
Got no time to figure them out or argue with them. What's the point? They chose a bigoted nihilist to run the country. They showed their ass. Not my job to turn them into compassionate humans. I've got two daughters to raise.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)support in spite of the rampant pedophilia and child abuse.
We can only be responsible for our choices and smart enough to know when we are being bullshitted.. remember trump got elected by "smart people" who "refused to support the lesser of 2 evils" and did not vote or voted for stein
Bettie
(16,138 posts)poorly animated circus peanut have already realized that they made a huge mistake.
They don't need us to reach out to them, they know that this is not working, that they were wrong.
The true believers? The ones who still declare that he's their guy? Fuck them. There is no reaching them.
I say this knowing that many of my relatives are these people. Many of my neighbors are these people.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)But most Trump supporters have been steeped in bigotry for so long that it's less a question of are they propagandized and more a question of can they be reached at this point. Or, rather, is it worth the effort given we all have limited time and energy? Or is it better to focus on GOTV and educating young voters while they are still pliable?