Gal Gadots Seemingly Innocent Tribute To Stephen Hawking Pissed Off Some People

[Proud liberal 80]

Last edited Fri Mar 16, 2018, 08:11 PM - Edit history (2)

Really? Ableism is really a thing. I am all for protecting people from discrimination, but this is ridiculous. I normally hate when someone says “people are too easily offended”, but I am with them on this one.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5aaa9cb1e4b073bd8292b0ae

Edit: after some self reflection I realized that as a person without a disability that I was acting just like how some white people act regarding racism. I was dismissing ableism based off of my privilege of not having a disability.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

1. Ablist?

That's a new one

[Proud liberal 80]

2. Yeah I know

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ableism

[Hekate]

6. That critique of Gal is right down there with the one we had here slamming the people who...

...climbed up on a Gun Day billboard and hung 17 crosses from it. See, whoever it was who climbed up there at personal risk and created a very pointed memorial to the dead kids in Florida was just showing their very blatant (and I quote) "Christian privilege," because they failed to find out which grieving families would not actually bury a loved one under a cross.

So it is with Gal Gadot's comment. According to the bitter, she is evidently just thumbing her nose at everyone who is not physically perfect. According to some she must just be a thoughtless airhead.

Our own DUer, n2doc, collected numerous Toons memorializing Prof. Hawking exactly the way Ms. Gadot did -- leaving his wheelchair behind and taking off for the stars. What the hell, the man was not merely "disabled" and "living life to the fullest" -- he was 100% dependent on other human beings and a host of machinery for the most basic functions of life including breathing.

So let me say what is in my heart: Stephen Hawking has gone where all hurts are healed, and may the Cosmos he so vividly described open itself to him like a lover.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. Excellent post-- it's amazing how some people can take a simple thought and turn it around.

[leftynyc]

27. It was the FIRST thing I thought

when I heard he had passed. That now his body was released and his soul was soaring. If anyone finds that insulting, fuck them. I'm tired of the perpetually outraged.

[Pachamama]

80. Exactly my thought too!

I saw it as a reference to the soul being without the physical realm and since he was a scientist who studied the Universe, he would be in another dimension that wasn't the physical one.

Ableist? Wtf....

[EffieBlack]

129. How cruel and insensitive!

I am an African-American woman who deal almost daily with racism, prejudice and insensitivity - and has to constantly weigh and consider whether to respond to it and, if so, how and when to do so in order to try to avoid being criticized and attacked for being overly sensitive and worse. I usually try to bring it up in a careful way to create a learning moment - and more often than not am still told that I’M the problem and if I just weren’t so damned sensitive about everything, things would be better.

Given this life experience, I also strive to be more sensitive when others bring up their own concerns about things that may not have affected or offended me personally. This is one of those instances. I was initially touched by by the comments and cartoons suggesting that Dr. Hawking is now “free.” But when I heard some of the responses pointing out the insensitivity of such comments, I realized, like the OP, that I was viewing this from the narrow perspective of a person without physical disabilities. When I considered what these comments - however innocent or well-meaning - really said to someone in that situation, I knew that I should, in the future, approach this differently. I learned something important that I didn’t understand before.

It’s a shame you didn’t take the opportunity to learn from people who have a different experience and perspective than you do, but instead just said “fuck you” to them for expressing their view. Telling you that something is offensive is not a personal attack on you and it doesn’t deserve such a nasty response. And asking you to be more sensitive is not an effort to restrict your freedom - any more than asking that someone not use racial slurs is.

Being sensitive and empathetic to others is not “political correctness run amok” as conservatives like to call it. It’s just plain human decency.

[leftynyc]

137. Sorry, but it's those

who don't consider the INTENTION of the person making the statement, then they're every bit as guilty as the one saying they're offended. Did you happen to read what was posted to Ms. Godot as a result of that tweet? Pretty fucking ugly response to someone who was OBVIOUSLY not trying to be hurtful. I've seen how people of faith are treated right here on DU. And I've learned to suck it up. I don't demand anyone cater to my feelings.

[EffieBlack]

138. People who point out that something is offensive are NOT responsible for others' hateful responses

Moreover, they didn't criticize her intention. She was obviously well-meaning and didn't intend to offend anyone. But that doesn't mean it wasn't offensive or that the people who were offended should just shut up and not let her know.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been attacked for pointing out that something someone said or did was racially insensitive because the person didn't INTEND to offend - i.e. "I'm not racist so how DARE you call me one!" I'd be relaxing on the tropical island I bought.

Her intentions are irrelevant. If people really are decent, and their intentions really are good, they will be willing to learn and not attack people for pointing out instances of insensitivity.

And given your "fuck them" response, you're not really in a position to complain about "ugly" responses from anyone else. Your over-the-top and downright nasty reaction because you were offended because someone was offended by something that doesn't offend you would be amusing if it weren't such a glaring example of privilege trying to dominate and dictate what constitutes appropriate discourse in a diverse society.

Instead of doubling down and defending your reaction, perhaps you should reflect on why you reacted the way you did and why you feel entitled not only to be so offended while deriding others for having the same emotion but why you also felt perfectly entitled to express it the way you did while trashing others for being as ugly as you were.

[leftynyc]

141. You'd be right IF

People actually had been polite to ms. Godot. They weren't. I wasn't offended by the reaction of those attackind her, I was disgusted by some of the outright ugliness. If it offends you that I very much care about intentions, that's not my problem. We're done here.

[EffieBlack]

142. And I'd buy this excuse if you'd directed your "fuck them" to the people you felt attacked her

Instead of to "anybody who's offended." You made very clear that you were disgusted by and lashing out at everyone who was offended by the comment, not just by how some people communicated their objection.

Yes, we are indeed done here. But I sincerely hope, despite your defensiveness - or perhaps because of it - you will think about how you see and respond to other people's views because I'd like to think you're better than what you displayed on this thread.

Have a good day.

[Docreed2003]

33. Excellent post...very well said!

[Cuthbert Allgood]

48. That is Christian privilege

Do we know that all 17 students we Christian? That they were of a Christian sect that would want a cross as a memorial?

And as to the OP at hand, if people with disabilities tell me that the sentiment is poorly worded, I'll listen to them. Same as I would with anyone else.

[Hekate]

49. Then YOU climb up on a billboard, risking YOUR personal safety & itchy-fingered cops...

But before you do that, be sure you call ALL the grieving families to ascertain their desires in the matter. That's right. Butt in on them. Know that the more people you tell about your plans the more likely it is YOU will get a pre-emptive visit from the cops regarding your planned vandalism.

Go right ahead. Make sure your visual statement is so pure that you've made no conceivable error.

Then get ready to be attacked and judged by total strangers on a liberal public discussion board.

Do not go there with me. I have not been a Christian in decades, but I recognize what amounts to a near-universal symbol when I see it.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

51. That's an odd response. How about "why did it have to be crosses"?

They could have done any number of things. Flowers, for example.

I am often shocked at the lack of understanding of Christian privilege on a liberal discussion board.

[DavidDvorkin]

61. Imagine if atheists had put up 17 red letter A's

Or anyone but Christians had put up 17 of their own symbols.

[Mosby]

73. Five of them were Jewish, one was a teacher

I hadn't thought about the crosses, it was insensitive to say the least, though it was done for good reasons that I support.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/12233993

[EffieBlack]

130. Im surprised to see the opinions of disabled people attacked on a liberal discussion board

and dismissed as unreasonable “outrage.”

Replace “ableist” with “racist” or “sexist” and some of these responses could be plugged right into any right wing chat room and fit right in.

A fundamental tenet of privilege is believing you have the right to determine whether something is offensive to other people and to dictate when and how they may respond to it. This thread smacks of it, which is unfortunate for a liberal website.

We all need to check our privilege.

[tymorial]

54. Oh ffs.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

56. If one of my kids died and someone "memorialized" them with a cross

that would be ridiculously disrespectful.

I would never presume that someone wants a cross as a memorial. I know it was easier when the non-Christians just shut the fuck up, but....

[DavidDvorkin]

60. Well said.

[Beartracks]

90. +1

[DeadLetterOffice]

96. If I'm ever killed in a mass event...

... please keep your "pointed memorial" crosses to yourself.

Thanks.

~~A very much non-Christian DUer

[thucythucy]

63. Actually, no.

The term has been used by people in the disability rights movement for decades.

It's the first entry in the Encyclopedia of Disability Rights, written by Fred Pelka and published in 1997. It's been around at least since the mid-1980s.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. She's not the only one. Lots of people were making ablist assumptions about what it means to

Last edited Thu Mar 15, 2018, 11:43 PM - Edit history (1)

be in a wheelchair. ALS is painful and he lived in pain for a lot of his life. OTOH, the wheelchair made it possible for him to get around and see the world. To imply that death is a "release" or "relief" for a disabled person is, in many cases, just insulting.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

4. Speaking as one who's youngest brother died from ALS two years ago

A common phrase was, "At least he no longer suffers from the bonds of the disease."

I did not find the words offensive. ALS is ultimately fatal.

Stephen Hawking lived longer than perhaps anyone else with the disease.

My brother died 3 years after diagnosis.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. My condolences.

I'm glad you were not offended by people saying that to you. Others may be offended by the thoughts behind it.

[Hekate]

7. Hawking did not have MS; he had ALS.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. Thank you!

[LuvLoogie]

8. He wasn't just in a wheelchair. He couldn't speak.

I don't know, but he may not have been able to dress or bathe himself, take himself to the bathroom and clean up.

We all end our struggles in death. She mearly wished that he rest in peace.

[Hekate]

14. Or breathe

[EffieBlack]

127. The responses to your thoughtful post are very troubling

Feeling entitled to say “fuck you” to someone who is offended by something that doesn’t offend you is the very epitome of privilege.

Thank you for being so open and empathetic.

[LuvLoogie]

5. Anyone who dies is freed of physical constraints.

It was a spiritual message. Some are wanting to make it political, some are accusing her of bigotry.

She is expressing belief in an afterlife where we are made whole and healed from all our injuries, spiritual, mental, and physical.

[Farmer-Rick]

10. I was thinking the same thing

All dead people are free from physical constraints. At least in the sense that anything physical is not going to affect you because you are dead.

[Bettie]

53. That was my first thought too

But, people get really ticked off about anything and everything.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

64. An afterlife Hawking rejected clearly.

Kind of insulting in that level, too.

[LuvLoogie]

71. He affected a lot of people with all kinds of beliefs.

Many people who only have good thoughts for him.

If there is no afterlife, as he believed, then the sentiments are irrelevant and the ones being insulted are being self-centered in projecting an injury upon Stephen Hawking.

I mean what does/can/could he care, really? How presumptuous of you.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

76. Presumptuous of ME?

That's rich. All I'm doing is all that people respect his clearly stated beliefs and not use him to foster some religious concept he rejected clearly.

But, yeah, I'm the one being presumptuous.

[LuvLoogie]

82. You seem to be taking offense on his behalf. That

is very presumptuous. He cannot be offended. He no longer exists, correct?

[leftynyc]

118. That you OR Dr. hawkins

Know everything about the universe is what I think is presumptuous. Don't need a belief in a direty to believe in eternal life. There is much about the universe that is not known or understood. I think Dr. Hawking would have been the first to admit that.

[Pachamama]

81. Exactly!

[nini]

11. Some people just need to be pissed off all time

I'm disabled - not to his level - but I have issues. I completely understand what she means.

[Hekate]

15. Thank you -- for understanding

[nini]

18. I worked with disabled college students,while in college myself

I know that type all too well. One guy in particular would say stuff like that one minute then throw a hissy fit the next because someone wasn't moving fast enough to do domething for him. I finally called him out over his mixed messages. Hawking was indeed limited by his disability in many ways. That does not mean he still didn't achieve a lot and was one of the most brilliant minds ever.

[DeadLetterOffice]

97. WTAF

SERIOUSLY???

"I worked with disabled people and let me tell you how awful they can be! Why aren't they more GRATEFUL?"

SERIOUSLY???

[nini]

101. That wasn't what I was saying at all

I am saying they are like everyone else..some are jerks.

Most of the students I worked with are great people and have been my friends for years. I have helped them many times deal with crap they shouldn't have to.

Let me add in case you missed it - I am disabled myself. I understand physical limitations.

Calm down.

[Skittles]

86. THANK YOU nini

[nini]

102. Skittles!

[Skittles]

104. HOWDY nini!

[IluvPitties]

16. Some people look for ways to be offended.

[Skittles]

87. WAY too many people

I try to imagine if I was offended by every freaking blonde joke I have heard over the years - it's just fucking ridiculous

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. Why are objections from people *living with ALS* or *similar to how Hawking lived* seen as being

"too easily offended"? What do we gain by telling them that? What do we lose if we let their objections stand?

[cyclonefence]

19. Hear, hear

I quickly scanned through all the replies to see if there were any from a person with a significant disability. Nope. I continue to be amazed that so many good people refuse to allow the person who is offended to determine what is offensive. As in, white men saying team names like "Redskins" are not offensive--because it doesn't offend *them*.

[MicaelS]

21. Why are you amazed?

People get tired of having to parse everything single thing they say, less someone, somewhere, gets offended.

[cyclonefence]

50. I don't see it that way

I see it as people excusing themselves from making unkind remarks--without meaning to be unkind--because they don't feel the particular hurt that is inflicted by the well-intentioned words. I'd like it if Gal Gadot would say, "I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings; I honestly didn't realize that what I was saying was hurtful. Thank you for educating me."

And the "gosh, you can't say *anything* anymore sounds mighty close to "I'd be *flattered* if men whistled at me on the street."

[moriah]

22. But even then one can't take a single similarly affected individual's opinion...

... to be representative of everyone's opinions.

For example, my two youngest half-sibs have special needs and were adopted by the same family. I found them after my father's death, and was surprised to hear *them* use the word "retarded" to describe what most people mean when they use the r-word colloquially -- someone fully mentally abled doing something stupid. And even moreso when they used it to describe things *they* did when they should have known better.

I spoke to their mom, asking her about them using it, because I was honestly worried the latter was a sign of low-self esteem. My little brother himself set me straight -- "Oh, no, we're just disabled. It's when you know better but do it anyway that you're retarded."

That reassured me about their self-esteem, but doesn't mean I should take their interpretation of the colloquialism to mean that it's fine to throw the word around.

[cyclonefence]

52. Think of "retarded" like the N word.

[frogmarch]

119. I lost the use of my legs forever a few years ago,

and I was not offended by Gal Gadot's tweet, nor by any of the cartoon tributes to Stephen Hawking - and even though I'm an atheist, that includes the one showing the empty wheelchair beneath the stars. In fact, I thought the sentiment it expressed was beautiful.

I'm not going to spend what's left of my life taking offense at everything I can.

[cyclonefence]

132. No one is suggesting you "take offense at everything I can"

but surely you can understand how people with disabilities perhaps more serious than yours would be offended by the suggestion that their lives were not being lived to the fullest, especially a person with the accomplishments Stephen Hawking had under his belt.

And, once again, I do not understand the reluctance to allow people who are offended to express their hurt. Do you not believe the many people with disabilities who posted that they *were* offended--not at DU, of course; this place apparently has the sensitivity of a dead rhinoceros when it comes to understanding that people not like you may be offended by things that don't offend you--and I am tired of the childish rant of "I can't say *anything*" which is of course total bullshit.

When people say they are offended, it's only polite to believe they are offended, even if you yourself are not offended. And it would be nice if you could refrain from whining about not "being allowed" to continue to offend them. Because this is what it's about, isn't it? To be allowed to say things that you have been told are hurtful?

[frogmarch]

134. I don't need a lecture from you

criticizing me for expressing my point of view just because it doesn't fall in lockstep with yours. Did I suggest that the lives of people with disabilities aren't being lived to their fullest? No. Did I express reluctance to allow people who are offended by even well-meaning tweets, cartoons and so forth, to express their hurt? No. I simply said I won't take offense where none is intended. I'll save my disgust for intentional insults.

End of conversation.

[OneGrassRoot]

26. I agree. Of the comments shown in the HuffPo piece...

I thought they were mostly very respectful, simply trying to get Gal (and others) to look at this subject and the words we use in a different way.

I've become much more mindful of ableist language over the last few years and it's pervasive. I totally get how word usage can feel overwhelming, with some people being offended no matter what we say or how we say it (that applies to many issues, obviously), but I'm grateful to learn how common words have been hurting many people for ages and those of us not in that marginalized group have been oblivious to it.

What I dislike is the mob mentality of social media but, at least with the selections at the link, that wasn't happening. It was more educational.

The biggest takeaway is people trying to push back against the notion that people with disabilities are better off dead. That's a big fucking message. An important one too. It's easy to see how that view has influenced both culture and policy, and the growing awareness of "ableism" is trying to counteract that.

[OneGrassRoot]

29. Also...

while it may not be fair, it stands to reason that celebrity statements often invite such education. It may come across as the person being attacked when so many people are responding, but it's often simply a good opportunity to get a message out given the platform of celebrity.

[Javaman]

20. oh for fuck sakes. I read as existential.

"we flee our mortal coil to dance among the stars"

[TheBlackAdder]

41. +1,673,285 That seems to be her intent.

I've read that Twitter feed and people were hijacking it to paint him as anti-semitic, and a lot worse.

Others seem to have a view that he would be in heaven, in the final state of his body, which would really suck if he fell into a meat grinder. While others forget he was not born with impairments, that they started to manifest in college. Stil others were saying he was more mobile in a wheelchair than he would have been if not. Obviously, fame and wealth played a part in that equation, which most others can not partake.

He was apparently very abusive to his caregivers, which might have been due to long-term pain, discomfort and humility of having basic functions performed by others. But, none the less, as an energy form, after death, is one bound by their earthly appearances?

[Mosby]

74. he supported the BDS movement

Which involves the destruction of Israel.

Some people find a sentiment like that to be Antisemitic. Go figure.

[TheBlackAdder]

75. But that just show how people can not transcend base tribal instincts with a moment of compassion.

Gadot was able to, being an Israeli citizen, but those who were looking just to devolve her comments did so, with whatever means possible.

[Mosby]

136. gadot probably knew about his support for bds

Most Israelis are very well informed, but as you said she was able to rise above the political stuff and used the moment to make a heartfelt, compassionate comment about his passing.

[Tiggeroshii]

69. ..

[phleshdef]

23. Anyone who won't admit that being almost completely paralyzed is a shitty way to live...

...can kiss every single inch of my ass.

[leftynyc]

28. Amen (n/t)

[BannonsLiver]

31. Absolutely right on

Like someone else said people work awfully hard to be offended, almost as if it’s an addiction. Really if you’re not someone who suffers from these afflictions (I sure hope that’s okay to use) it’s becoming quite hazardous to show any compassion. Nowadays if one holds a door open for someone in a wheelchair they’re accused of being an ableist or an asshole. I suppose in some people’s eyes the more beautiful, the more pure thing to do is stand and watch as they struggle.

[DeadLetterOffice]

91. It's not okay to use, actually

"Afflictions," I mean.

Because seriously, you, an able-bodied person, judging how I, a NOT able-bodied person, see and relate to my body? Whether or not I am 'afflicted?' Whether or not I 'suffer?'

Yeah, fuck that.

Also, I'll happily say thank you to anyone who holds a door for me. Were you personally insulted by a wheelchair user for simply opening a door for them? That seems... unlikely, but hey, not all us crips are nice people.

[BannonsLiver]

111. I have heard some get offended if you help

I just try to do the friendly thing. Now I’m wondering if that’s a mistake. You’ve got people here losing their shit over nice words about Hawking and a cartoon so not really much of a leap.

[tblue37]

113. I have seen a person in a wheelchair get really upset when someone opened a door for her.

Though I use a cane now, I will probably be in a wheelchair within 10 years or so. When I am, I will be glad if people hold doors open for me.

[Kentonio]

24. I didn't understand until I read the actual comments.

Their objection is to the idea that being dead is somehow a release from being alive with those disabilities, as if death is better than disabled life.

I understand their objection now.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. Thank you for reading further and being willing to learn.

[leftynyc]

30. I don't think ANYONE is claiming

that death is better than a disabled life. Just that his soul was no longer bound by his physical body and free to soar. It was a spiritual message. For anyone who has ever read the Rainbow Bridge poem and found comfort after the death of a beloved pet, it's the exact same thing.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. Everyone's "soul" is "bound" by their earthly body, but you don't often see those images in

editorial cartoons or hear that language when able-bodied people die.

Some of the tributes that imply he's now "elsewhere" are also insulting, since he was an atheist.

[LanternWaste]

40. Except by Shakespeare, Twain, Euripides, Margaret Cavendish, Dostoevsky...

"but you don't often see those images in editorial cartoons or hear that language when able-bodied people die..."

Except by Shakespeare, Twain, Euripides, Margaret Cavendish, Dostoevsky, Albert Schweitzer, and a host of others.

As for images of death as release, too easy to find if one is sincere... and open.

[leftynyc]

42. Go ahead and be outraged

I don't play those games.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

43. But I'm not outraged.

I'm simply wondering what we gain by telling people who say "that hurts, please think the impact of your words" by responding with derision, and what we lose if think twice before using those metaphors.

[leftynyc]

44. Because everyone is outraged

about something. Unless you really feel the person was INTENTIONALLY being hurtful, I really feel people should just suck it up. There is not right not to be outraged. I see plenty around here that I find personally hurtful, I just shrug and move on.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

45. I'm getting the idea that your definition of outrage and mine are a little different.

If a person says something unintentionally hurtful, and someone else says, "Hey, that's hurtful, please rethink that," is that what you're calling outraged?

[leftynyc]

46. No - I'm talking about

those who actively look for things to get outraged about. If you had read some of the stuff aimed at Ms. Godot because of her tweet, you would understand better.

[Beartracks]

89. Even atheists go to heaven, according to people who believe in heaven.

And Christians don't live an eternal life, according to atheists.

For a heaven-believing person to express thoughtful sentiments regarding the soul of an atheist is pretty much a non-event. Just as it is a non-event for atheists to NOT pray for deceased Christians.

=========

[DeadLetterOffice]

109. Thank you for your open mind.

[Orange Free State]

34. Ridiculous criticism

I wish that was the worst thing anyone said or did today.Ignore.

[Doodley]

35. He had physical constraints like none of us can even imagine. A man with such great knowledge,

intelligence and imagination, unable to do the things we take for granted. Death has freed him from that. In the same way we say when people die things like: "he is at peace now" or "he is no longer suffering" or "he is no longer in pain," - is it also taboo to say things? Are we defining a person and saying a person is better dead than alive if we say about somebody who has had cancer and multiple surgeries for many years that "he is free from suffering," or "free from pain?"

This is getting ridiculous. We can't be so careful about what we say, so worried that somebody somewhere will be offended, that we all express ourselves in the same way and are all constantly worrying we might say the wrong thing. If people are offended this easily, get over yourselves.

[DeadLetterOffice]

92. Death did not free him from a damned thing.

He is DEAD.

Dead is not free, dead is DEAD.

I am disabled. I do not want to be free by your definition, thank you very much.

Most of us don't see ourselves as needing to be freed.

Y'all are so incredibly tone deaf it hurts.

[Doodley]

112. I won't be freed from the pain of cancer when I go?

[DeadLetterOffice]

122. I'm so sorry you're going through that.

The idea of being free after death only makes sense if you believe in an afterlife.

If you do, and if you're right, then I guess you will be free.

(Stephen Hawking didn't.)

Wishing you all the best possibilities.

[ebbie15644]

36. I am disabled

and no I was not "offended" by what she said. This is ridiculous and why people hate liberals

[Adrahil]

37. Sometimes this place pisses me off. This is one of them.

Yes "ableism" is a thing. It has been thing for decades.

The problem is this: do not assume that what YOU value in a life is what a disabled person values.

Do not assume that a disabled person, even a person as disabled as Stephen Hawking would see death as a release. The LAST thing disabled people need to hear is that there life is a hell.

Instead, let's try to ensure disabled people can speak for themselves. Let's try to ensure public accommodation is made for disabled people so that they can pursue achievement and a fulfilling life.

Let's not tell disabled people who seek to change the ablist public discourse on disability that they are being ridiculous, even if you think they are. Listen to what they say, and maybe try to understand WHY they might say it.

Full disclosure: My wife is a disability rights advocate and I am partially disabled.

[Proud liberal 80]

38. You are right

I guess the problem I had and the reason I started this thread was because of the definition of ableism

discrimination or prejudice against individuals with disabilities

At first I was like “Really, are people really trying to lump this with racism and homophobia? No one hates people with disabilities, ableism doesn’t exist.”

But then I realized that me as an abled person was doing the same thing that some white people do regarding racism. I had my blinders on, and my abled privilege.

[Adrahil]

39. Cheers and thank you!!!!

One thing I love about this place is the people willing to re-examine their position when they are called out.

[Ms. Toad]

66. Thank you.

This thread has been eye opening - and the post to which you are responding was the first in this thread to leave me shaking my head.

I was gobsmacked that someone on DU would not be acquainted with ableism. Then I kept reading. I'm glad you spoke up.

[Adrahil]

83. Thanks for your support! NT

[DeadLetterOffice]

108. THANK YOU!!!!

The responses to this OP made me feel ill...

[Doodley]

114. Nobody is saying that. Do not assume the worst possible interpretation when somebody gives respect

to somebody who has passed.

[Adrahil]

120. Please read the posts in this thread...

A large number of posts read like my sister's redneck in-laws talking and trans people, and how ridiculous the idea is that atrans person deserves rights. Or that white privilege exists. The same kind of language. The same kind of dismissiveness. One dude even telling ,e I have "delicate sinsibilities" in as an insulting manner as he could get away with.

[uriel1972]

140. I am disabled...

And my quality of life is crap, I had been suicidal for most of my life.
However as far as I can tell dead is dead, you don't come back.
So, no matter how shitty your life is it's the only one you got.
To hear someone say you're better off dead is not helping.
In fact it's quite insulting.
Someone who has never met you and doesn't know you from soap,
gets up and says on international media "You are better off dead".
Yes, they didn't intend it to be that way, but in that instant it still hurts.
I am hurrt by that comment, whether that was the intent or not.
Why would anyone choose to criticize me for saying to them,
"Please don't say that kind of thing in the future, it is very hurtful."?
Why would anyone protest about not being able to call someone,
crippled, deformed, useless?
My mind boggles, but I am not surprised really.
Prejudice

I

[dansolo]

143. Except that isn't what she said at all

You are taking other people's interpretation of her words as meaning that. Stephen Hawking did have physical constraints - quite severe ones. He was able to overcome them, but they were there nonethelesss. Saying that he was freed from those constraints is not the same as saying that he was better off dead.

[Tiggeroshii]

47. I think it is a touching image

[Cuthbert Allgood]

65. It assumes an afterlife Hawking absolutely rejected the concept of

Last edited Fri Mar 16, 2018, 07:46 PM - Edit history (1)

He's dead. That's it. He made his thoughts on that beer clear, too. He had been freed of nothing except life.

[Tiggeroshii]

67. Not to sound depressive, but

I dont think that kind of freedom should be discounted.

[DeadLetterOffice]

93. You have no idea how he felt about that chair.

Yes, most of us would prefer to be able-bodied, if for no other reason than shear convenience.

But maybe he liked his chair, because it gave him some independence. Maybe he hated the damn thing. Maybe it was an integral part of his self-image. You don't know, I don't know, only he knew.

When so many of the messages are "well yes, he's dead now, and that's sad, but hey, at least he's not disabled anymore," some of us crips start to feel a wee bit tetchy.

[Doodley]

115. I have not seen any messages that say that. Are you trying to find the worst messages, or are

you looking for the worst possible interpretation?

[DeadLetterOffice]

125. What do you think that touching image above said?

It says, Dead Stephen Hawking got to leave the chair behind and walk away.

Which, hello, sounds to me pretty much like "Yes, he's dead, but hey, he's not disabled!"

Can you see where that might sound a tiny bit Not Good to a disabled person? Can you imagine that we might be legitimately upset by the idea that no longer being disabled is a consolation prize for being dead?

[Doodley]

128. That is your interpretation. I don't see it that way at all. I doubt the artist intended it to

suggest he is better off dead than in a wheelchair. It is a tribute to the life of Stephen Hawking. It isn't an attack on people with disabilities.

[Tiggeroshii]

133. His wheel chair was not representative of his disability as much as it was his greatness

And that picture emphasises he gets to leave this greatness behind onto the next great thing that is the cosmos.

[Hoyt]

55. Christ, as someone who pushed my FIL's wheelchair for 3 years, that's BS. I think her statement

was far from wrong.

Hawking was a remarkable man, including his recent comments about trump. But Jeeez.

[Nac Mac Feegle]

57. Just an observation:

There are two classes of people that I have seen in great numbers recently; Trolls and what I call The Professionally Offended. Could this be the work of one of those? Ms. Gadot is Israeli, and there has been a bit of an uptick in the anti-Semitic rhetoric in the last few years. Could we have a (possibly Russian) troll throwing their crap around to sow discord?

Then there are those who seem to be offended by anything. If you were to say "Have a nice day." They would angrily retort "Don't tell me what kind of day to have." to paraphrase the great George Carlin. There are those that will take any statement and twist it into an offence to serve whatever obscure purpose.

Don't feed them. Don't feed the trolls. Laugh at their pitiable machinations, hold them up for the richly deserved ridicule and consign them to the dustbin of being ignored. They may learn their antics are not socially acceptable if lucky, but don't let them control the narrative. That's how they win.

[Loki Liesmith]

58. Oh God this is so deeply stupid

The internet outrage machine never shuts down.

[ebbie15644]

59. my thoughts exactly

[Skittles]

88. yup

[NutmegYankee]

62. Some people are just ignorant and stupid.

It’s a spiritual message. Everyone is free of their constraints after death.

[Generic Brad]

68. Now I'm glad I didn't post the first thing that came into my mind when I heard the news

My daughter texted me that Stephen Hawking has passed away. I asked her if they were really sure because there might be a chance someone forgot to change the batteries in his voice synthesizer when we changed the clocks last weekend.

I am certain I would have offended more people than Gal Gadot did. Glad I did not post something that insensitive anywhere on the internet.

[Exotica]

70. we do not go to BST/DST until Sunday, 25 March

Hawking died in Cambridge, so your humour attempt didn't even have a factual premiss.

[Oneironaut]

72. I can say with confidence that this absolutely did not piss anybody off.

HuffPo is shit-stirring for clicks again. It’s a common media tactic. Nobody heard about, nor do they care about this tweet.

[DeadLetterOffice]

94. Thank you so much for speaking for the entire disabled community

We really appreciate having our voices stripped away.

Keep up the good work.

[Oneironaut]

107. This has nothing to do with "the disabled community."

If you want to voice your opinion here, nobody is stopping you. For what it's worth, I understand and agree with your point. It's absurd to say that death would be a better option than living. On the other hand, I do not agree with dog-piling on someone who clearly did not have bad intentions. This will be my last post on this thread, but feel free to respond.

[DeadLetterOffice]

110. You said you could guarantee no one was pisssed off

Lots and lots of people in the disabled community were, in fact, upset. Some were even pissed off. Me, I figure it was an uneducated mistake. A learning opportunity, if you will. Doesn't make it ok, and it doesn't make some of the comments on this thread even vaguely okay.

Speak for your own experience, but please don't negate the voices of those who were genuinely upset/angry/sad about the underlying sentiments expressed in her statement.

[HopeAgain]

77. She meant well.

This is where people want to put their outrage? With everything else that is going?

[Skittles]

78. Hawking would not have been offended

[Adrahil]

84. Thanks, Mr. Hawking's Spokesperson.

For fuck's sake... it's not just about Hawking.

[Skittles]

85. for fuck's sake

*** **** ********

deleted lest I offend someone's delicate sensibilities

*DONE HERE*

[Adrahil]

105. Why not call me snowflake? NT

[Doodley]

116. My thoughts exactly.

[LisaM]

79. I had a situation like this crop up on a bus ride recently.

There was a woman with crutches (that kind you hold in your hands), sitting near the front of the bus, though not in a seat for the elderly or disabled. I missed the initial exchange, but apparently another woman, also sitting near the front, had offered her some assistance when she reached her stop.

I ended up feeling sorry for both of them. The disabled woman absolutely went off on the person who'd offered assistance, shouting that she was the same as any other fully abled person, her independence was important to her, and that she didn't need any help getting off the bus.

The other woman was taken aback, and said, "I was just trying to be nice", and that set up a new round of attacks...."no, you're not being nice! I don't need your help! I live my life independently!" to the point where people were kind of shrinking in their seats.

Like I said, I felt sorry for them both, for the woman with crutches because she probably just wants to blend in, and for the person who'd volunteered to help her get off the bus. I don't know the correct answer to this (other than maybe you make the offer discreetly and then you reject the offer discreetly). I felt as if I learned something from the encounter, though. I've been tempted sometimes to ask a person in a wheelchair if they needed a push up an incline, for example, but now I won't ever do that.

[Demit]

98. I think the thing to do is to ask a person if you can help.

It sounds like the second woman wasn't waiting to to see if the first woman might need help, so she was being presumptuous. I can see why that would make the first woman angry. Also how it would feel like an invasion of privacy, like she was being observed. Nobody likes that feeling, being observed by a stranger.

I think if the second woman had waited, to see if the woman was having any difficulty, then asked if she could help, things might have gone differently.

[LisaM]

99. True, but she was generally contentious.

And because she chose not to sit in the designated seating, it took her a good five minutes to get off the bus, where 30 people were waiting to board.

[nini]

103. Don't stop offering others help

When I was in a wheelchair.. then crutches for years I appreciated a bit of help getting through doors etc.. If I didn't need help I thanked the person and told them I got it. There was no need to bark at them. I don't want to live in a world where we ignore those in need either. What a sad story.

[Doodley]

117. We end up with good people not offering to help people who might need help, or good people

not giving their condolences for fear of upsetting people. I already feel like a bad person each time I hold a door open for a woman.

[VOX]

139. Nowadays you need a script stating how not to offend any given person on any given occasion.

You say something with the best of intent, from the heart, but somewhere, some individuals take offense, justified or not.

Makes one less likely to wish anyone well, for fear of being judged as somehow offensive.

[DeadLetterOffice]

95. I am so disappointed...

... by the attitudes evident in this thread, and people's willingness to decide what is or isn't hurtful to some persons with disabilities.
Some of you expressing disdain towards those who were upset by Ms. Gadots' post? You're posters I've admired for years, and I'm really sad to learn that the words of your disabled fellow humans are so easily and nastily dismissed.

If you'd done this about any other group, y'all would've had your heads handed to you on a platter.

I think it's gonna be awhile before I feel comfortable here again, knowing now that some of you are so eager to deny us our realities and our voices. But it's certainly been an eye-opener, so I guess I should be saying thank you for the lesson.

DLO

[Adrahil]

106. I'm not just disappointed. I'm outraged.

People in this thread are doing things we would absolutely condemn if someone said it about racism. Or sexism.

This is absolutely unacceptable.

[Devil Child]

100. More needless poutrage journalism

To encourage clicks and fuel profits. I'm hard pressed to twist and turn Gadot's tweet into something offensive. But as many have noted there is a strong desire to be outraged at many seemingly trivial things. I doubt Hawking would give a shit. Ooops I just assumed on his behalf, my apologies for potentially offending anyone.

[Adrahil]

121. Well, you know us snowflakes, easily offended, amiright?

It's eye opening to see that kind of rhetoric used here.

[BannonsLiver]

123. Well I sure dont see anyone calling you crips either

And yet your buddy in this thread has used that exact term multiple times which I find offensive. Doesn’t take much imagination to see what would happen if someone not using an alternative means of conveyance used the same term.

[Adrahil]

124. Ah yes... and why can black people say the n word? Amiright?

The right wing rhetoric on display is revealing.

[BannonsLiver]

126. And Up go the deflector shields.

[Ferrets are Cool]

131. I thought she was trying her best to say something wonderful about a wonderful man...

and probably, like me, had NEVER heard this word "ableism" before. We live in a sad world where someone can't genuinely express their feeling without being chastised as she was.

[leftyladyfrommo]

135. That is how I feel, too. nt