If you believe Russia hacked our voting machines but didnt change votes,

[onecaliberal]

I have the worlds largest bridge to sell. And if you want to blame Obama for this, fuck you. Dump has done NOTHING to prevent it from happening again AND is refusing to impose the sanctions the congress practically voted in unanimity to pass.

[PJMcK]

1. Right on!

The only reason to hack the voting machines would be to change the votes. Otherwise, why would Russia or anyone else do it?

Blaming Obama is the Right's default position and it has no intelligence or logic behind. Each State sets up their own voting rules and methods and the president has no control or influence over that.

Trump, of course, has done nothing to stop the foreign influences into our government and that's a completely different issue than hacked voting machines. This is because the Russian activities go far beyond than the hacking.

His refusal to implement the sanctions that were passed nearly unanimously by both Houses must be imposed. Congress should force Trump, one way or another, to act.

[Fred Sanders]

28. Since the FBI investigation uncovering the Russian 13 did not start until early 2016 and was not

complete what could Obama have done but go to the Republicans and ask they jointly announce this interference....why oh why did Obama not for instance ask Mitch McConnell...wait a minute....

Fucking Foxxx.

[Cha]

126. President Obama, PJMck

[brooklynite]

2. There has been NO ACCUSATION of Russia hacking voting machines....

...there has been an accusation that Russia hacked (or attempted to hack) voting databases where voting registrations are stored.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/09/23/what-we-know-about-the-21-states-targeted-by-russian-hackers/?utm_term=.b37fac10ce28

[PatSeg]

52. Yes, that was my understanding

No doubt they could have done plenty of damage that would have affected the election, but I haven't heard anything about voting machines.

[Ms. Toad]

66. Correct - which is why I jump in with a clarification every time this gets rehashed.

They are two entirely separate systems. So yes Russians tried to (and were successful at) hacking the voting registration system. And yes, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that they would not necessarily have changed votes because they got access into the registration system.

And now I'll wait for my smack-down - which always shows up, even though I have more practical, hands-on experience with both voter registration systems and voting systems than most people on DU.

[Eliot Rosewater]

78. The are multiple KGB or FSB operations going on at once, many have been planned for decades

waiting for a situation like this.

Agents working in politics, at social media sites, for software companies and at voting precincts.

What you can be SURE of, my friend, Putin and his pals did NOT spend years/hundreds of millions maybe billions, no hell many billions, investing in people like trump and others to get THIS close and then leave it up to YOU or ME (as in the voters) on election day.

That is NAIVE!

[saidsimplesimon]

107. Eliot, of course

Naive, no, worse it is not collusion (as rump says) it is a conspiracy to defraud and degrade the US election system.

[mr_lebowski]

128. I understand your frustration ... but Voting Registration systems are 'connected'

As in, these databases are 'part of the internet' ... they are networked in, if you will ... thus making them vulnerable.

Whereas actual voting machines are almost certainly NOT. I think it would be a major breach of security protocol if they were, put it that way.

That doesn't mean they cannot be 'hacked' in some sense, but it does means it has to happen via people in direct proximity to the physical machines at some stage (could be before, or immediately after, the actual voting).

But 'hacking' the actual machines involves risk that's orders of magnitude above that of hacking registration DB's.

Bottom-line, assuming that if Voter Reg databases can be hacked it necessarily means voting MACHINES can be ... is just wrong. It's like arguing your microwave could be hacked ... just because your laptop could be hacked.

[TheFrenchRazor]

98. there has been NO INVESTIGATION of this either, so it's not surprising nobody found anything. nt

[ollie10]

3. Didn't need to actually change votes....

.....if they screwed with registration files, they could have prevented people from voting (people from groups known to vote Democrat).

This would have a similar effect

[onecaliberal]

5. Theyre going to do it again in 2018 with a vengeance.

[ollie10]

15. Yes. I am afraid you are right....

Trump knows about this threat. He has done nothing about it. And has no plans to do anything about it.

This is either cowardice or treason. Either way, Trump is putting Russia first, America last.

[luvtheGWN]

51. Beg to differ.

Trump is putting Trump first. If all I've read about Trump owing Putin and company for billions is true, and knowing that Putin's modus operandi is to force people to do his bidding via blackmail (or "kompromat&quot then Trump's only concern is to save his own ass. He has to know what Mueller is uncovering and he's going to hold out until the very end. Either way he's dead in the water, and so is his family. No wonder he was frightened by learning he'd won the election. He's living on fumes, not hope. There's no way out, bud.

[Tess49]

44. I wonder if they could have added registrations, and then somehow "voted" with those

fake registrations.

[True Blue American]

55. They did get into voter lists

They were not playing tic tac toe there.

If you ever worked at the polls with those machines it is clear how easy it is to get into the,.i did,it takes a small key the size of a tiny locker. We had to take them down, but at least we had a paper trail like an old fashioned adding machine that twisted often,had to be straightened out.

[uponit7771]

70. +1, like what happened in Florida in 2000

[mythology]

4. If you mischaracterize things it's easy to make absurd claims.

Russia has been found to have gotten into registration systems, not the actual voting machines. Also you'd have to explain how they managed to change the machine recounted counties in Wisconsin in a way that was indistinguishable from the hand recounted counties.

There is no evidence votes were changed. The national polls were more accurate in 2016 than in 2012. The evidence is clear, whether you admit it or not.

[chuckstevens]

6. I have been hammered on this point, but fully agree with you!

Even if they did not actually change Clinton votes to Trump, they were probably able to knock thousands of voters off the roles which delivered states like Wisconsin to Trump.

Why else would they have done it?

[onecaliberal]

7. Exactly. The assertion that they hacked in the machines to do nothing is delusional.

Their base is so stupid they’ll actually believe any ridiculous thing they’re told.

[brooklynite]

9. They didn't "hacked in the machines to do nothing"...THEY DIDN'T HACK THE MACHINES!

[TheFrenchRazor]

99. you don't know that. don't act like you do. nt

[questionseverything]

108. we don't know because no one ever checked

... Desi Doyen said on 10/17/2017 @ 4:00 pm PT...

Hi, Karen --- It was actually DHS, specifically acting undersecretary Jeanette Manfra, who acknowledged that DHS had not conducted a forensic examination on any individual voting machine during her testimony at a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on June 21, 2017. The relevant segment starts at about 58 minutes:

https://www.c-span.org/v...ted-russia-2016-election

Here's Brad's article on it: http://bradblog.com/?p=12192. More on it can also be found here.

Desi

///////////////////////////////////

[stonecutter357]

110. you don't know that.

[brooklynite]

114. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be discounted without evidence"

There is documentation and testimony that voter registration databases were compromised.

There is NO documentation and NO testimony that voting machines were compromised.

Moreover, NO LOSING CANDIDATE, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, PARTY LEADER OR ELECTION OFFICIAL says it happened.

[TheFrenchRazor]

116. i'm not saying they DID hack the machines, only that it is very likely, given what we know about

the vulnerabilities of the machines, the unlimited resources of Putin, the willing, treasonous GOP tools, and the fact that the presidency of the US is at stake. to me, when you put those things together, it is virtually guaranteed that machine hacking took place, but there is no proof EITHER WAY at the moment. however, there has also been no meaningful investigation into whether machine hacking/vote switching occurred, so it is not surprising that proof has not been found.

[diva77]

124. Computerized voting/tabulation is non-transparent. Our votes cannot be guaranteed to be

counted as cast with this mode of "voting." Germany has banned the use of computerized voting.

This might be of interest:

The Constitutionality of Electronic Voting in Germany

https://www.ndi.org/e-voting-guide/examples/constitutionality-of-electronic-voting-germany

The German Constitutional Court upheld the first argument, concurring that the use of the NEDAP voting machines was unconstitutional. The Court noted that, under the constitution, elections are required to be public in nature and

that all essential steps of an election are subject to the possibility of public scrutiny unless other constitutional interests justify an exception . . . The use of voting machines which electronically record the voters’ votes and electronically ascertain the election result only meets the constitutional requirements if the essential steps of the voting and of the ascertainment of the result can be examined reliably and without any specialist knowledge of the subject . . . The very wide-reaching effect of possible errors of the voting machines or of deliberate electoral fraud make special precautions necessary in order to safeguard the principle of the public nature of elections.

----------
I think it will take more than Mueller's investigation to deliver the US from the blight of rigged voting machines.

[FBaggins]

17. Speaking of believing any ridiculous thing you're told...

... your OP presumes that voting machines were hacked.

Were you going to back that up at some point?

[think4yourself]

125. Can you prove otherwise?

[FBaggins]

130. Never heard of the burden of proof fallacy, eh? nt

[triron]

41. I think they may have accessed central tabulators as well.

[meow2u3]

50. I think so, too

Why else would tRump win in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsyvlania by precisely the margin necessary to avoid a mandatory recount?

[forthemiddle]

54. Wisconsin has same day registration

So even if they knocked thousands off the rolls, those same people could have reregistered and voted.

[LanternWaste]

82. Unless of course, they vote later in the day because they work.

Unless of course, they vote later in the day because they work, or go to school, or...

[dflprincess]

122. Even if you vote later in the day you can still register the day you vote

at least that's how it works with Minnesota same day registration. And, as long as you were in line at your polling place before 8 PM you get to vote - even if you have to register again.

[kairos12]

62. The robber cracked the ATM but didnt

take any money. Sure.

[uponit7771]

71. +1, cause they just want a big list of American names ? / sarcasm

[Hoyt]

8. I don't believe they hacked voting machines. Someone locally might have, although I think vote

tallies were likely pretty much accurate.

We lost because people didn't vote, lies, Comey, we weren't prepared to counter lies, some voter suppression although there is not a lot of evidence lots of people were turned away from polls, confidence Clinton would win, protest votes for trump and third party, etc.

We do need to be vigilant, but we win in places like Alabama and Maryland when we GOTV.

[onecaliberal]

10. They DID hack 8 states. Im watching the reporting on it right now. My state was one of them.

[Hoyt]

11. They "hacked" registration systems poking around, but I've not seen any evidence they changed votes.

[onecaliberal]

12. Yeah they hacked for shits and giggles.

[brooklynite]

13. You can't change votes in the voter database...

[ollie10]

16. But you could delete people's names from the lists?

So when they came to vote the would be turned away?

[FBaggins]

18. And then assasinate them all before they reported it?

They would "come to vote" and "be turned away"... but then wouldn't join hundreds of thousands of others in lawsuits?

Plus there's this:

"All state and federal officials who spoke to NBC News agree that no votes were changed and no voters were taken off the rolls. "

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/u-s-intel-russia-compromised-seven-states-prior-2016-election-n850296

[uponit7771]

73. You mean like they did in 2000!?!? Please with this bullshit line of thinking

[FBaggins]

84. Was that supposed to make sense?

Are you saying that voter registrations were hacked and deleted in 2000 in a way that kept them from voting yet they failed to make a stink about it?

[uponit7771]

87. Plenty, in 2000 Florida voters were purged and we didn't know till after the election

... because few of them said anything until they were notified.

It's BS that the voters would've spoken up then.

[FBaggins]

90. "Didn't know until after the election"??

We ARE 15 months past this last election. They would have been "notified" when they walked into the polling place and couldn't vote. Yet you're seriously trying to claim that this could have happened to tens of thousands of people in a handful of states and not say anything about it?


It's BS that the voters would've spoken up then

Just the opposite. We hear on election day when there are cops near a polling place and some people are worried about voter intimidation... yet you think people wouldn't speak up about something like this?

Save some of whatever you're smoking for the rest of us.

[uponit7771]

91. "news organizations" haven't dug into those states like they did in Florida. Again

... Few if any where speaking up in Florida until these organizations dug into the information

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/jun/09/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-revisits-floridas-2000-and-2004-vo/

After the election, news organizations and other groups tried to figure out how many people had been denied the right to vote

[FBaggins]

95. Sorry. Your memory is faulty

The voter purge in FL2000 was in the news quickly because people who were unexpectedly told that they were no longer registered DID pitch a fit.

Also keep in mind that in 2000 it was quickly public knowledge HOW people had been purged (individual counties did the purging based on a statewide list that they had been provided). In this case the story would be MUCH larger, because there would be no formal process that could be tied to the removal. People would have voted in 2014, but be purged in 2016... but not have any trail explaining why they were removed. It would only take a handful of such events for the story to explode.

[uponit7771]

97. I didn't know about the FL purge until nearly a year after the 2k election when it was confirmed

I'm not sure I'd put money on ... NO ... eligible voters being purged in 2016 seeing how screwed up crosscheck was.

After hearing the Russians hacked into voter rolls and state and local election systems it's rational to think there were some pulled off in very very small numbers.

Its rational to conclude on the side that the Russians where looking into voter rolls for shits and grins.

I'm leaning on purging did happen seeing it happened before without great fan fair and that there's no one looking into it like they did in 2k I don't expect to hear about it yet.

[brooklynite]

19. Yes, but that's not "hacking votes" as plenty of folks here bluntly assert...

First, the number of instances of actual penetration of the databases is relatively small.

Second, there were no reports of surprisingly large numbers of missing voter registrations in those states, outside of the purges being carried out by Red State election officials.

Third, if it happened, voters could still vote a provisional ballot, and there would be backup records to support them.

It's far more likely they were looking for voter names to target their social media messaging.

But of course, that's not nearly as juicy a conspiracy theory.

[Hoyt]

22. That's what I think. Blaming our loss on vote changing just sets us up to lose again. We do need

to be vigilant, but getting out the vote will make the biggest difference.

[ollie10]

25. So you are content to figure that when the Russians got into the registration files.....

...they just did it for fun?

[brooklynite]

30. No, I'm content to try to address what ACTUALLY happened and not engage in fantasies...

Flipping votes already cast has been a go-to conspiracy theory without hard evidence or supporting accusations from anyone involved in the actual elections.

[ollie10]

45. What actually happened is that the Russians got into the registration files of several states

Maybe they didn't do anything (yet) once they got there. Maybe they were just trying to see how easy it was to get there. It would be wise to do some protection against FUTURE attacks.....I know, future attacks haven't actually happened, but I hope you can be interested in this

[brooklynite]

56. I absolutely agree...

...what I don't see is how that translates to hacking tens of thousands of individual voting machines to change actual votes.

[ollie10]

58. Didn't say anything about votes changing

....although I seriously doubt if Putin would think twice about doing that if he thought he could get away with it

We need paper trails in all elections....so we can verify if there is ever a question of authenticity.

We can start there.

[uponit7771]

74. +1, the "they didn't do anything that affected the election" line of thinkign is assinine

[Hoyt]

21. And, then, you would have had people turned away from polls. Where I live, the only people turned

away turned out to be those who showed up at the wrong polling place or were purged because they had not voted in years.

We need to do a better job of getting people to check their registration and voting place long before going to polls. In most states, one can vote early and even by mail. No one in those states should wait until the last day to vote. Too much can happen, including sickness, bad weather, sorry you showed up at wrong polling place, complacency.

[brush]

48. But you can delete voter info, or make it so some Dems can only vote with povisional ballots when...

they show up, which of course are thrown out.

trump only prevailed by some 77,000 votes over three states so such small tampering wouldn't even be noticed during all the activity around a presidential election.

Plus in those three states the margin of trump's win was 1%, not 1.2 in one or 2.0 in another or .05 in a third—they were all 1%.

Come on, there was tampering done in trump's favor.

It's naive to think they only looked around at voter role info after all the effort it took to access the information.

[cilla4progress]

67. Here are the percentages

Not exactly 1%.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10201744

The most important states, though, were Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Trump won those states by 0.2, 0.7 and 0.8 percentage points, respectively — and by 10,704, 46,765 and 22,177 votes. Those three wins gave him 46 electoral votes; if Clinton had done one point better in each state, she'd have won the electoral vote, too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/donald-trump-will-be-president-thanks-to-80000-people-in-three-states/?utm_term=.ed9ce46c2c27

[brush]

68. My point was trump got just enough votes to swing those states. Seems pretty well calculated...

if you as me but some insist the Russians were just looking around when accessing voter roll info.

Nah, I still say the election was stolen.

And it's come out that they were looking into voter info in 39 states, not just those 3 states or the 7 states that was reported.

[stonecutter357]

112. you seem very concerned !

[pnwmom]

29. They affected the vote counts where they changed some registration information.

So when people arrived, their ID didn't match and they had to vote on provisional ballots. If they didn't jump through hoops after that to prove their identity, their votes didn't count.

So that did affect the vote counts where they did that.

[FBaggins]

34. "no votes were changed and no voters were taken off the rolls."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/u-s-intel-russia-compromised-seven-states-prior-2016-election-n850296

[pnwmom]

35. That doesn't say that REGISTRATIONS weren't altered.

http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/

The hacking of state and local election databases in 2016 was more extensive than previously reported, including at least one successful attempt to alter voter information, and the theft of thousands of voter records that contain private information like partial Social Security numbers, current and former officials tell TIME.

In one case, investigators found there had been a manipulation of voter data in a county database but the alterations were discovered and rectified, two sources familiar with the matter tell TIME. Investigators have not identified whether the hackers in that case were Russian agents.

The fact that private data was stolen from states is separately providing investigators a previously unreported line of inquiry in the probes into Russian attempts to influence the election. In Illinois, more than 90% of the nearly 90,000 records stolen by Russian state actors contained drivers license numbers, and a quarter contained the last four digits of voters’ Social Security numbers, according to Ken Menzel, the General Counsel of the State Board of Elections.

[FBaggins]

43. It says that they werent altered in a way that kept anyone from voting

Which is your unsupported scenario.

[pnwmom]

47. It says in "at least" once case, leaving the possibility open that there were other cases

in which the alterations weren't discovered.

[FBaggins]

86. Which still leaves your imagined scenario... entirely unsupported

Keep in mind that you didn't claim that maybe something was possible (despite a lack of any evidence)... you said that they DID affect the vote counts.

[uponit7771]

72. +1, NO ONE hacks for shits and giggles !!!

[JohnnyRingo]

53. I believe you're correct.

They didn't have to alter votes after their successful mission to tar & feather Hillary and promote Bernie and Jill. I was working a precinct in Ohio and was freaked at how many in this democratic UAW stronghold changed to republican in the primaries. We don't see many voters under 30 BTW.

When asked which ballot he wanted, one smart ass asked me what Hillary was, then requested a republican ballot.

[procon]

14. It's quite likely that Russia's long term goals are more widespread

than anyone knows. It's very possible that the 70K votes in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin that gave Trump the presidency were results of a direct Russian cyberattack. But that was only the tip of the iceberg.

We don't know how far the Russians encroached into our local, county and state elections to deliver votes to the Republicans. But today's news reports that "U.S. intelligence had evidence that voter registration systems or websites in seven states - Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Illinois, Texas and Wisconsin - were compromised by Russian-backed operatives".

Still unknown, and far more insidious, is that the Russians may have left behind all kinds malicious code that will come alive in the 2018 elections, once again tipping the vote to keep Russian loving Republicans in office. Worse, the Russians need only to disrupt the voting systems, trigger a state or even nationwide failure of electronic voting to create chaos and disruption throughout the whole country.

[cilla4progress]

20. My tinfoil hat conspiracy theory:

1. They hacked
2. Authorities know
3. They will not divulge to us because, stability is their most important value across the boards - Dems and Rs. In fact, isn’t this why Obama didn’t disclose Russian interference to boost trump in 2016? The appearance of Dem bias, ie, if HRC won? Needed to have a united front and when McConnell wouldn’t participate, Obama backed off?

I believe this tracks back to Gore’s concession in 2000 also. He should have stayed and fought. But national politicians always put the preservation of the republic first. A peaceful transfer of power. It’s one of the top indicators of a stable democracy.

[Clarity2]

26. I'm wearing the same tin foil hat

And I seem to recall early after the election a video clip going around that someone in the know claimed certain touch screen machines were manipulated. It was a video of someone testifying in court. It was just a blip in the media and disappeared out of our collective consciousness.

[think4yourself]

36. Youd have to wear a tin foil hat

to believe they DIDN’T attack any computer system they could get their hands on.
Seriously, anyone saying these Russian hackers have limits or that they “only fucked with the registration rolls but absolutely nothing else” is dangerously naive.
This is not conspiracy theory stuff, it’s mature logic.

[triron]

40. Exactly!

Exit polls also point to election corruption.

[brooklynite]

57. Now THERE'S a Conspiracy Theory worthy of a tinfoil hat...

EVERY election official and losing candidate, State or Local, Red State or Blue State, Democrat or Republican SINCE 2000, is hiding "the truth".

[cilla4progress]

103. Sorry, my point didn't come across clearly:

I'm not intimating a cabal. What I'm trying to see is I think MANY politicians, including some of our most forthright (Obama, Gore) believe that it is true patriotism to take their lumps and move on. That stability and a peaceful transfer of power trumps (ugh, sorry) all.

So, for example: do you think Obama would have come out with this after the election and before the inauguration (he didn't, of course, as we know), where he could have risked a revolution, rather than a "peaceful transfer."

Truth be told, I think he SHOULD have come out with it, notwithstanding Mitch's objection. He should have just trusted us with the truth. However, what would have been the outcome, do you suppose/

[uponit7771]

75. +1

[TheFrenchRazor]

100. can't disagree. politicians are "team players," if they're anything. nt

[rzemanfl]

105. What we have now is a "stable democracy?" What we have is

an oligarchy with false indicators of democracy and stability.

[TheFrenchRazor]

111. ain't it great? haha. nt

[cilla4progress]

115. Yep

[librechik]

23. absolutely

why on earth wouldn't they? And why wouldn't (Republican) election officials cover it up?

[pnwmom]

31. Maybe because they could fool us better by "merely" changing the registrations of some.

or deleting registrations, which we know they did. And most of the voters with changed/deleted registrations ended up with their votes not counting, because they were given provisional ballots and then had to make the effort to get prove who they were and take it to the elections office in the days that followed.

[librechik]

96. yep our system is full of holes

and they all get abused by those with the access.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. I completely agree.

[spanone]

27. K&R...

...and if you don't think they will change votes this coming fall, i'll sell you the 2nd largest bridge

[Chakaconcarne]

32. Recall right after the election, Trump sent his minions to key states to thwart any effort

to look at actual voting records....

That was my tip off.

[LenaBaby61]

33. "If you believe Russia hacked our voting machines but didn't change votes ....

I have the worlds largest bridge to sell."

Did we EVER investigate to see specifically IF the ruskies didn't change votes?

Because for me, until there's solid evidence that they didn't change/remove Democratic votes, then I won't feel comfortable that they didn't in 2016 or won't do it this next set of elections. Lastly, who knows WHAT they've come up with to screw Dems out of their votes for the NEXT 2 election cycles? The sanctions Pres. Obama put in place to punish them for meddling in our elections more than likely won't EVER be enforced as long as the treasonous, racist, sexist, self-described pussy-grabbing, putin-loving HOG is president.

[Orsino]

37. Who says voting machines were hacked? n/t

[TheDebbieDee]

38. I have been right where u are since just after

The Nov 2016 Elections! It's moronic to even infer that the Russians hacked these voting systems but DIDN'T change vote totals...

I've been PISSED since Nov 2016 while waiting for the rest of America to catch up with me!

[ehrnst]

39. They didn't need to hack voting machines - just the voter databases

If you can stop the vote from happening when they check in and are not on the list of registered voters, that's much easier than trying to change or erase the vote after the fact.

[Demsrule86]

42. Of course they changed votes...Trump was not elected. He is illegitimate.

[brooklynite]

59. Proof?

[Demsrule86]

65. Look at the numbers out of Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin...I don't know there will ever be

definitive proof...I hope someday there is...but I believe it was hacked by the Russians and that there was good old vote stealing in Pennsylvania in rural GOP districts...I think actual votes were flipped by the Russians.

Also, It is a common belief here in Ohio that the GOP managed to cheat and win in in 2004 as well and had something planned in 2008 too (only close elections are easily stolen)...both Democrats and Republicans will tell you that.

[brooklynite]

79. Right, white working class voters in the rust belt NEVER vote Republican...

I was in Ohio...I know the Party Chair in Ohio...I know why Clinton lost, and it has nothing to do with vote hacking.

[Demsrule86]

104. The number were suspect...you know statistics pretty well... take a look.

I am telling you some of those numbers were cooked.

[saidsimplesimon]

46. imo, many timid democrats in Congress

seem to suffer from an inaction syndrome of epic proportions. Cowards hiding behind walls expecting reelection? You may find yourselves on the streets looking for a new home come the next election cycle. Stand Up or go away, imo

[Botany]

49. All those places across the country where the vote did not match the exit polls is a real clue.

Also two programs that targeted the vote and developed in Russia have been identified
and they are Lurk and Wanna Cry.

[brooklynite]

61. Tell me, why do we bother to vote? let's just go with the exit poll.

[Botany]

63. Whatever

[TheFrenchRazor]

101. hate to break it to you, but exit polls USED to be accurate; something changed in 2000. go figure.

[Honeycombe8]

60. Of COURSE that's what happened. And NOW...the fed has a list of reg. voters to give them...

or for them to hack. Remember that bigly list of all registered voters in the U.S. that the administration "required" the states to give them? Some did not comply. But many did.

How HANDY for the Russians to have ONE YUGE LIST to hack, rather than a separate one for each state!

[Lithos]

64. There are several layers to the "voting process" which could have been hacked

Some of which deal with the actual votes, others with machine availability, others with voter rolls.

The issue at hand is there is not enough information at hand to be definitive as to what the Russians did.

Some options:

* Change cast votes either by machine hacks, or post machine summaries changes (delete/additions, etc.).
* Change voter rolls to deny eligible voters (prevent voting)
* Crash machines in specific areas (prevent voting)
* Data mine voter information


All of these depend on the machine and/or point of hack. Personally I think they did a little of all the above, but given the atrocious data and audit trails in place, it's impossible to determine from the target source. The only place where you could definitively know is likely on the Russian (hacker) side.

L-

[FakeNoose]

69. Thanks this is helpful

A lot of the voting machines in use now were programmed during installation as long as 20 years ago. They haven't been reprogrammed so maybe the original software was faulty or somehow gave a slight advantage to the GOP. It's a tiny, ever so slight advantage that has never been noticeable until the 2016 election, when it seems all the voting machines were doing it. Then it did make a difference and it threw the election by flipping small rural counties that nobody was looking at. But enough of them flipped that it changed entire states. And now this is what we have.

Can we blame this on Russian hacking? Maybe not, but somebody wrote the original software and somebody gave the tiny advantage to the rightwingers. Somebody decided to install the machines in most of the counties in every state. Guess which party has been behind the electronic voting machines since Day One? Guess which party has benefitted for the last 20+ years? Guess which party has to cheat in order to win?

[Botany]

80. Ever since HAVA ... Help America Vote Act* .... we have seen a red state shift in the vote even ...

.... though the population demographics have been in favor of the Ds.

* Everybody votes on electronic machines

[triron]

81. 2016 was the worst I believe.

[FakeNoose]

83. Yes and that tells us a lot

A few states are switching back to paper ballots, and Democrats are seeing big wins.
For example Doug Jones beat Roy Moore in Alabama last month - it was on paper ballots.
Also the recent Virginia and New Jersey state elections voted in Democratic governors. Virginia used paper ballots, and I'm not sure about New Jersey.

Certainly there's something going on with these voting machines, and this needs to be stopped immediately.
Impound the machines in every state and mandate paper ballots until we can figure out what the problem is.
If the President doesn't do it, maybe the Supreme Court can enact something. (?)

[Botany]

85. KY's 2015 Governor's race was really egregious

The state's AG was 5 or 6 points up going into the election and lost by 9
which is a 14 point swing for no real reason.

[FakeNoose]

92. Didn't the same thing happen when Mitch McConnell won in 2014?

I don't know all the details but I do remember that it looked very fishy.
Of course, nobody's talking about it now.

[Botany]

93. I don't know about McConnell's win but Scott Walker's "win" in the recall race smelled really bad.

Funny, how time after time all these "things" help the GOP. Random chance says that
it should be split equally.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

76. I agree, it doesn't make sense Russian hackers didn't do the one most effective thing - change votes

[uponit7771]

88. +1, or even more effective is to purge voters like was done in Florida 2000. GOP is greasy

[uponit7771]

89. So after all that's come out in regards to what Russia did with DNC emails and social

... media and the Trump campaign meeting with Russians multiple times even once clearly to get dirt from the Russian government

You still think all of this is on HRC?

REALLY?!??!

Damn

[Demsrule86]

106. This is why they have to fight the notion that the election was stolen...because they can't blame

Hillary and 'centrists' which is anyone who is not 100 pro- Senator Sanders and agrees with him (and them) on every issue.

[uponit7771]

109. +1

[Bonx]

94. I oftem wonder if they hacked MY vote!

[AJT]

102. I don't recall any hacking of voting machines, only voter rolls (registration).

[TheFrenchRazor]

113. do you recall any forensic examination of machines, hard/software, or comprehensive, state-wide hand

hand recounts? yeah, i don't either.

[bluestarone]

117. this is what i say too!

To my way of thinking, if there's a possibility that SOMETHING could be wrong, it needs to be checked out! We won't know UNLESS machines are checked and verified. (not even sure who i would trust to do this) BUT why do we have BILLIONS to build a fucking wall and CAN'T do this? I CANNOT 100% say i trust our election results! Something stinks and if Russia name comes up, IT REALLY STINKS!!

[jimlup]

118. Fishy stuff happened election day

Whomever was doing the computer hacking definitely went all in that day. We all remember DU going down.

Personally, I strongly suspect that votes were changed and that Florida, North Carolina, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania may all have been stolen. The numbers just don't add up and I've never seen an adequate explanation.

I know I know, the Trump assholes were really inspired yada yada yada ... I don't really believe it. The mainstream explanation has never adequately explained 11-9-16

[TheFrenchRazor]

119. yep. nt

[onecaliberal]

120. I dont believe it either. Who the hell thinks Russia or trump are trustworthy.

[triron]

121. Perhaps also Arizona.

[mvd]

123. Those razor thin margins are awfully convenient, aren't they?

Also Hillary won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes. It never really added up IMO. It requires a very large amount of luck for the Repukes if no shenanigans.

[jimlup]

129. Honestly "luck" doesn't run the table like that /nt

[SoCalMusicLover]

127. I Have Started Threads Saying Exactly This

After all their efforts, Hillary was still going to win the election. This stuff about Comey impacting it so much to swing the election to Drumpf is ridiculous. People had already made up their minds.

The final step was to fix the results. It was close enough that they could get away with it, and that was essentially the plan all along. No way were they just going to leave it to chance, and the American public still not wanting to put Drumpf in on their own.