Senator Gillibrand showed courage and has fought for women from the day she became a US Senator.

[Casprings]

Last edited Mon Dec 25, 2017, 12:29 PM - Edit history (2)

Senator Gillibrand has changed our party and our nation. When she started her career, she fought for women. She has fought for them in the Military and outside the military. She is the one that has led the way in stopping toleration of any abuse in the Democratic Party. With that, she is changing both our party and our country.

We, as a party, have to look reality in the face. For example, it was Joe Biden who chaired the judiciary committee and , at first, refused to call Anita Hill, and then did refuse to call witnesses that could collaborate her story. Democratic men have not always been on the right side of history. However, Gillibrand has fundamentally changed that dynamic and is leading the path to a cultural change in our party and country.

While some may disagree with her position on Senator Franken, it is wrong and sexist to question her motivation. Some “liberals” seem to pick her out for abuse when she was one of many calling for him to resign. They state it is because ambition. While I am sure she has ambition, it is also true she has fought for these issues from day one. To pick out the one woman who is on the vanguard of these issues for abuse is not keeping the values of the Democratic Party. While debates about due process are legitimate, if wrong, these sexist attacks on the Senator should stop.

[PubliusEnigma]

1. Someone's got an agenda.

[MoonRiver]

2. Sad, cause it's a losing cause.

[vsrazdem]

21. I second that.

[IMnotU]

32. She has no focus, she just shoots and the hell with who it hits

[R B Garr]

56. +1, she sure didnt hold the same views when she took

the Clinton’s help. The Clintons’ got her that Senate seat.

[Alice11111]

132. Yep!

Starts with an H, ends with a E.

Always Franken.
Always Bill and Hill.


Never G, who attacks our best Democratic leaders

[Chasstev365]

179. THIS!

[customerserviceguy]

117. Probably left over from her days

when she got a rating of 100 from the NRA.

[Alice11111]

133. God, is that true?

Why is she in this party?

Me thinks she had better career opportunities in NY as a Dem. New York, what do you think? No true Dem would attack theClintons after they helped her. No true Dem would weaken the Democratic Party by throwing over the best Senator because of a RW smear job. Many lined up, but she led tbe charge.

No due process, and she is a lawyer, which makes it even worse. I wonder if she ever even read the US Constitution? If so, she obviously didn't get it. She is
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

[Blue_true]

175. She came from upstate New York.

The person that posted the claim about the NRA rating FAILED to mention that she refuted that while still a House member and has been pro gun control since. What was done by the post that you responded to is the type of character assination that was done on Hillary, pick out one thin slice of her composite public record and blow that tiny piece vastly out of proportion to make her look bad and cause others to question her adherence to the core principles of our party.

[Alice11111]

194. Thx for.info

[customerserviceguy]

247. Yes, she has altered the sails

But, that's what an opportunist does. She's got a history that she was able to run away from in NY (I know, I lived there from 2007 to just this year), but I don't know if she can run away from it at the national level, should she choose to take it there.

We have a lot better choices out there, in my opinion. Al Franken would have been one of them.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

176. You sure about that?

[ucrdem]

202. NBC: "She was also proud of her perfect letter grade from the NRA,

which said she had voted with them on gun related issues 100 percent of the time as an upstate Congresswoman."


https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NRA-Shoots-Down-Kirsten-Gillibrands-Rating--104050029.html


To her credit she reversed her position after being appointed to Hillary's senate seat.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

203. Wow, okay.

[Blue_true]

213. What you were told was untrue.

Kirsten started supporting registration of guns and a ban on assault weapons before she was appointed to Hillary's seat and the appointment had nothing to do with the change, one mass shooting where an assault weapon was used did. Her earlier support of guns was based upon her supporting the right of hunters to own guns. I have no desire to ever hunt, but if legitimate hunters want more hunting guns, I am not going to get in their way.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

214. Not sure what to believe now.

[Blue_true]

220. Do your own research.

Examine a number of sources for the same information. There are attempts around to destroy people's reputations by distorting their record or the timing of their actions, it stinks and is a major reason why our political culture is so screwed up now and we have a moron like Trump in the highest office in the land.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

224. I will.

[customerserviceguy]

248. The fact remains

at one point in time, she had a 100 rating from the NRA, and their money, no doubt. I simply charge that she's an opportunist, and is trying to trade Al Franken for a shot at the nomination as part of that pattern.

[ucrdem]

218. Not according to the report I linked to. Here's the link again:

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NRA-Shoots-Down-Kirsten-Gillibrands-Rating--104050029.html

[Blue_true]

212. She reversed her position on guns BEFORE being appointed to Hillary's seat.

A mass shooting caused her to reevaluate her position. Until that shooting event, she had supported constraint free gun ownership as anyone from a region that has a lot of hunters would do. Free access to assault weapons was a bridge too far for her to support.

[ucrdem]

217. Possibly but NBC says otherwise:

When Gillibrand was appointed to the Senate last year, she boasted about sleeping with guns under her bed and how her family hunted their own Thanksgiving turkeys.

She was also proud of her perfect letter grade from the NRA, which said she had voted with them on gun related issues 100 percent of the time as an upstate Congresswoman.

But since she joined the Senate, the powerful gun-lobbying group says she has voted against them 100 percent of the time.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NRA-Shoots-Down-Kirsten-Gillibrands-Rating--104050029.html

The story is dated Sept. 29, 2010. Gillibrand was appointed to the senate in January 2009. Yes, they could have gotten it wrong, but it would be nice to see a link supporting that claim.

[Blue_true]

221. Support for hunting rifles?

You show me where she has supported constraint free support of assault weapons? I would expect someone from a rural region to support gun ownership, this from a person who does not own a gun, never owned one, nor want to own one.

[ucrdem]

222. The point is that she reversed her position after being appointed to the Senate.

That's what the NBC story says. If she reversed her position earlier, it would be a good idea to provide a link supporting that claim before calling others posts untrue.

[Blue_true]

223. She supported hunting rifles before and now.

There is no story saying that she ever supported free, unregulated access to assault weapons. You seem to have a big emotional investment in taking her down. Why is that?

[ucrdem]

228. Take it up with MSNBC:

On the day of her appointment, Mayor Michael Bloomberg publicly criticized her for her staunch opposition to gun control.

(snip)

She flipped on immigration, too, switching from a congresswoman who opposed all forms of amnesty to a Senator who co-sponsored the DREAM Act.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-cycle/the-flip-flopping-nature-kirsten-gillibran

"staunch opposition to gun control" is hard to finesse.

[elehhhhna]

3. Blue dog? No. Never.

[hlthe2b]

4. I hope she learns from her mistakes and her handling of Franken was

a big one..

[a kennedy]

10. Yup, gonna take a long, long, long time for me to get over that huge mistake

[cwydro]

143. Many of us feel this way.

I can’t overlook or forget it.

[spooky3]

71. Agree.

[blue cat]

91. I believe she doesn't have what it takes to be president.

She seems like an opportunist the way she handled the Franken situation. We need someone who isn't going to be too reactionary and someone who is a team player.
The few liberals I know hate her because she lead the lynch mob.

[Alice11111]

162. We already have a complete opportunist. We don't need more.

[Lucky Luciano]

5. Of course she will take the most heat - she led the charge.

[rzemanfl]

6. Get a canoe paddle for Xmas?

P.S. use spell check perhaps?

[dalton99a]

18. It seems Gillibrand 2020 doesn't give people Christmas off

[rzemanfl]

19. That would be Unamerican. n/t

[dalton99a]

20. +1

[rogerashton]

7. In the past few weeks we have lost two promising presidential candidates for 2020.

Al Franken and Kirsten Gillibrand. I would have happily supported either or both of them -- and still would, but they are out of the picture.

Franken because of the scandal and his resignation -- and however questionable some of the "allegations" may be, the picture isn't going away.

Gillibrand because the resentment felt by Franken supporters will make her even more divisive among Democrats than some recent primary candidates have been.

Too bad. But what's past is past and cannot be undone, and that applies to both.

[Pachamama]

60. +1000

My feelings precisely....

It cannot be undone....and I feel the strongest about that regarding Gillibrand...

[rogerashton]

83. Agreed.

I'm not so sure Franken had the fire in his belly to run for president. Gillibrand, by contrast ....

[Alice11111]

159. Got that right..

She iintentionally took down Al , with no due process. She recklessly took herself down with her vicious,.incompetent zeal to remove Al BEFORE the facts came out. She lost respect and. Credibility with most Democrats who knew the facts.

[brooklynite]

210. What Franken supporters are you talking about?

Other than the folks here, I'm not seeing any "resentment" among Democratic voters, or even among activists. She might have a hard time in the MN Primary, but I don't see the Franken issue having any resonance elsewhere.

[rogerashton]

230. I hope you are right. eom

[rzemanfl]

17. That's the spirit. n/t

[grantcart]

47. lol

with only 2 recs not going to qualify for Orthodox Christmas bonus next eeek

[Freethinker65]

66. Hahaha ❤️

[Botany]

69. и счастливое Новый Год

[left-of-center2012]

73. And happy new year to you too

[StevieM]

74. I am not sure why this post was alerted on. All it says is: "and Happy New Year." (eom)

[StevieM]

81. I don't disagree with you. And I just realized that they probably alerted on the "Merry Christmas"

post you were responding to as well. The two probably got alerted on together.

It would have been super weird of one was hidden, while the other was left alone. And it would have been especially weird if yours was the one that was hidden while the original response, directly to the OP, was not hidden.

[Demit]

86. Small correction: he allegedly said that to the Democratic aide to somebody or other

(we don't know who) backstage at an event when he was with Air America. Sadly, the woman can't come forward & be named because she is afraid, according to the poster who started this thread, and not because it's a ludicrous allegation that would fall apart if she were questioned on it.

[left-of-center2012]

92. "the woman can't come forward & be named because she is afraid"

So the accused (Al Franken) was forced out of the Senate by an anonymous person?

I thought it was part of our law that an accused has the right to confront the accuser.

Franken even requested an investigation,
but was just told to get out.

It's a sad day in America when anonymous accusations can ruin someone's life and career.

[cwydro]

145. I know?

Afraid of what?

[Freethinker65]

90. Exactly

Last edited Mon Dec 25, 2017, 06:22 PM - Edit history (2)

And my post get removed yet the divisive OP remains to further divide us. Hahahahaha. Ho ho ho

[DFW]

191. Actually, in Russia, the phrase they use is this:

С новым годом (literally, "with the new year&quot .

[StevieM]

75. Merry Christmas to you too!! (eom)

[enough]

9. You can fight for women without taking out one of your strongest allies.

Sorry, it's absurd to say it's "sexist" to question a politician's motivation, no matter what gender.

[brooklynite]

95. Of course, having actual evidence on which to question the politician would be nice...

[Alice11111]

163. Thank you. Needed to be said.

[ornotna]

11. Welcome back tovarishch

A little music to entertain while people check out this new information you posted.

[DFW]

12. Women have not been granted immunity from making mistakes any more than men have

Gillibrand does not get a pass for leading the charge against Franken anymore than Sanders or Warren does for joining in.

Whereas I once thought she might be potential presidential material, I no longer think so. I think her eagerness to lead the charge showed poor judgment, and a president should have better judgment.

[Lucinda]

185. +1

[JHB]

13. She started the ball rolling so shes getting the most flack for it...

...not to mention that the liberals you so oddly scarequote were also initially dismayed at the allegations but were much quicker to pick up on the signs of a conservative ratfucking op: the Roger Stone advance tweet, the bizarre, atypical nature of subsequent allegations (random gropes when people are taking pictures?), the unequivocal support from women he’s worked with over the years, and the the taffy-like stretching of the definition of “grope” for the allegation that constituted Gillibrand’s last straw. Waist? Really?

I don’t really care about her motivations. Her lack of perceptiveness and wilingness to throw a respected colleague overboard when he himself was not dismissing them but was instead calling for an ethics investigation has cost the party an effective senator, jeopardized our ability to hold back the loony monster party, and reopened some old wounds within the party that were sort of starting to mend.

It was a major screw-up, and she has to own it.

[dansolo]

14. It is not sexist to question her motivation

Quite the opposite. You seem to be arguing that she can't have suspicious motives because she is a woman. The implication there is that only men's motivations can be questioned. THAT is sexist.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

215. Yes, it would be sexist NOT to treat women the same way men are treated.

Gillibrand should be given the exact same scritiny.

[oasis]

15. "Wrong and sexist to question her motivation"?????

[Alice11111]

165. Huh??? RW hit plot avainst Franken, then implemented by G. She plays the sexist

card, when she IS the problem. Abuse of power and trust. Abuse of women to misuse the term.

[Crunchy Frog]

16. It's Franken, not "Frankin". And no, I'm not a "sexist" because I question someone's motivation.

She's getting extra criticism because she chose to take on the role of ringleader.

I think this is really divisive shit-stirring going on. Maybe you should consider giving it a rest for awhile, instead of impugning anyone who disagrees with you.

[tavernier]

150. As I said on another of his/her threads,

You need a bigger spoon to stir that enormous pot.

[Demonaut]

22. whatever.............

[Gidney N Cloyd]

23. I don't question her motivation. She froze in the press's headlights and said something reckless.

Then instead of tempering her remarks as soon as she could, she chose to double down. Whatever her ultimate presidential ambitions or the finer points of her position on harassment, she seems to be a little slow on her feet.

[delisen]

24. Schumer is the Democratic Minority Leader.Would not have happened without

his leadership.

[marble falls]

25. Why are you trying to pick a fight? You keep bringing up resolved issues. And then stir...

Intentionally or not it seems a bit trollish.

[pangaia]

35. Lonely... maybe..?

[marble falls]

37. And single issued. He/she certainly knows how to be a majority of one.

[pangaia]

39. 1st time i have seen it's post...

[marble falls]

45. He/She's all over this one......

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10021588 (you left this OP early)

For a glimpse of how much he is on this topic just look at the top 30 or so responses - 90% or more is on this topic. Advance Search his name.

And two hides over comments on the topic.

[pangaia]

52. WOW. And I was pretty active in that thread and never noticed...

[Hekate]

48. It's been busy, busy, busy picking fights, but has not gained much traction at DU re Gillibrand

Last edited Mon Dec 25, 2017, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Nonetheless, it is still here. Can't imagine why.

In any case, the concensus among our more mature members (long memories) is that this was Nixonian ratfucking and Dem Senators fell for it. They should all be ashamed.

[marble falls]

54. Its drawn a lot of attention to itself.

[pangaia]

94. I agree with you on that one for sure..

[Loki Liesmith]

88. Russian Christmas isnt until January

Lots of time to kill until then.

[IluvPitties]

26. She managed the Franken situation very poorly

and I would not support her for president because of her poor judgement.

[MurrayDelph]

51. True, the problem with her working from a

Zero-tolerance policy is that when you don't allow for shades of gray, you eventually stop listening when big problems show up.

[Jakes Progress]

199. She degraded the #Me Too movement

with her political grandstanding. Equating a accusation of rib touching with rape and coercion is degrading to women. It's like someone hearing a story about someone with cancer and then saying how they are with them because they have an upset stomach. It is demeaning to the victims of oppression.

Notice that she never called for trump to resign (until it was pointed out to her). If she believes Al was guilty because women accused him, then why hasn't she brought articles of impeachment agains trump for his sexual crimes?

[IluvPitties]

240. Well said. Franken's apology and commitment to better behavior in the future should have sufficed.

[Alice11111]

164. Exactly that, and more.

[SHRED]

27. We would not have Mueller or the ACA without Franken

[dalton99a]

38. +1

We lost one of the very best Democratic senators

[stonecutter357]

28. Cool Story, Bro .

[jalan48]

29. She was also very strong standing up for big tobacco when she was a private attorney as well.

Not sure how that helped women.

[MoonRiver]

30. She tried, but failed, to work the "system."

[NCjack]

58. We had a long hard fight against Big Tobacco, no thanks to her. In the DEM primary,

she will not get my vote because of her poor judgment.

[Blue_true]

31. Totally agree. She has been 100% consistent on that front.

I don't understand the attacks on her by some on DU.

[cadmium]

121. Yes ---unflinching nt

[nocalflea]

33. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays !

[pangaia]

34. LOLOL!!

I just lost my coffee..

[Vinca]

36. I was a big fan until she opted for mob rule over due process.

[IluvPitties]

40. Exactly.

[marble falls]

43. A "rush to judgment" without any semblance of fair hearing.

[cadmium]

123. re mob rule

this has been Kristen Gellibrand's priority issue as a senator--sex harassment in military and now in halls of govt. Its stronger non-partisan. We don't know about the upcoming claims against Franken, but could be dragged out and would certainly have undermined out case for Doug Jones v Roy Moore. While Gellibrand may have been the first-- a lot of senators called for Al's resignation --- From Kamala Harriss, to Dick Durbin to Bernie Sanders,and Angus King --a few examples there were many more. Joe Manchin of WVA was the only Dem senator to openly disagree wth sen Gillibrand. I think it was an honest exchange that they can agree to disagree. I am aloyalist ---supported Clinton in his sex in White House issue (not consistent with k Gillibrand statement).

In this case not only did Gillibrand do the right thing --- she stood up to Trump unapologetically - unblinking-reinforcing his implied whore reference -- I got the feeling (depends on media and dem support) that she has that trait like Obama -- to hit back emotionally above he fray. (As Elizabeth Warren said to White House "do you know who you're attacking - good luck with that). At least now on initial impression she is able to be firm and responsive when needed. I don't think the US is willing vote for a woman president, but She can handle the media and fire back

[Vinca]

138. I disagree. Women can be accused, too. If it was Sen. Gillibrand would she want a hearing?

I would hope so. I don't want to lose her in the Senate any more than I wanted to lose Franken. Al turned into the sacrificial lamb and they ought to be honest about it. Many of the claims against him were suspect and a couple of the accusations were a bit foolish. Just because a woman utters something doesn't make it 100% legitimate. If Franken is guilty as charged, most Democrats - including me - would pack his bags for him. Unfortunately, we will never know if he's guilty as charged because he's already been tried, convicted and sentenced by Senator Gillibrand.

[Alice11111]

167. Very true!!!

[Merlot]

41. She's forcing HER standards on the rest of the electorate.

Saying Clinton should have resigned was another example - why should he resign when his approval ratings were high? People still approved of the job he was doing as president, she would have wanted to force her preference on everyone else who disagreed. That's not democracy and that's what concerns me about the Franken issue as well. People who actually voted for Franken should have had the opportunity to hear his side of the story and cast their votes accordingly. She robbed us of that opportunity and it won't be forgotten.

It also came off as intolerant, smary, self-rightous and opportunistic. And women don't need to be "fought for" or protected. Womens rights need to be fought for and protected. Many things done in the name of "protecting" women are the things that disenfranchise them.

The repubs constantly force their agendas on us, they have a list of "should's" a mile long. Democrats need to follow rule of law, not rule of mob.

[Casprings]

46. Clinton should have resigned because he used his power on someone without any power

Not because his approval was high. Would have been a better country and party if we just accepted president Gore.

[Merlot]

50. Aother "should" which is my point. Rule of law, not "should"

[Casprings]

53. Intern, worked for the President, President got sexual favors

Position is power versus position of no power. How else is it possiable to remember it?

[marble falls]

57. For which he paid for in a lot of different ways. Including losing his law license for perjury...

just because you personally didn't like it does not mean he didn't sustain some measure of justice. If you would like to inform your opinions google it.

[Casprings]

62. My thoughts are informed

And it cost the party far more then it costs him, long term. Gore would have been President in 2008, for example.

[Hekate]

65. Wrong. We need to recognize ratfcking when we see it and call it out. That's what' wrong with the Ds

We could be as pure as the driven snow and the right wing would find something, anything, and if they didn't find anything they'd make it up. (A child sex-ring run by Hillary out of a pizza parlor? Really?)

We need to have the backs of our own, and follow some sort of fact based due process. Recreating the Puritan era in the 21st century is really not going to help us.

And PS: adultery and pedophilia are not the same.

[Casprings]

67. Adultery wasnt the issue

It was a man in a position of extreme power and a young woman that was an intern. The society needs to really think about the meaning of consent in that situation.

No one said it was the same thing. That said, I am assuming that other allegations against Clinton are false. We certainly need to see degrees in behavior. However, again, we are talking about continued service as POTUS, not going to Jail.

[Hekate]

70. Read my post #63 re Presidential Kneepads before you talk consent

[marble falls]

72. Your thoughts are informed only by your ignorance. And another uninformed opinion of yours....

Gore never acted like he really wanted it, including his anemic challenge of the robbery of his vote in Florida where the consensus is he actually won it: Gore conceded.

It wasn't that Gore fired up the right wing (in a fairly low turnout election) its that Gore didn't fire up the Democrats and he didn't use the Clintons when they could have helped him a lot. Lets face it, RWer's didn't care any less for Gore than they didn't care for Clinton.

The only vote I ever sat out was not voting in 2000. I never really thought anyone would be dumb enough to elect Bush and Nader did not help. Its a mistake I will never ever repeat and was one of the reasons I pushed so hard for Hillary after backing Bernie into the Convention. A lot of people thought that Trump did not stand a chance and that they could afford to sit out an election to protest Hillary. Boy were THEY wrong.

I am curious, who did you actually cast a ballot for?

[Casprings]

99. He would have won as an incumbent

Clinton and straight dem ticket. Clinton in the primary.

[marble falls]

131. HUH?

[Casprings]

140. If dems push Clinton out in 98 Gore likely wins as an incumbent.

No pardon, like Ford. Clear rationale but not illegal behavior. Gore likely wins two terms on his on and serves for 10 years as President.

[marble falls]

147. That's pure conjecture. You'd impeach a President over lying about a blow job?

Whereas Gore did lose an election due to a combination of a lackluster campaign and a stolen ballot box in Florida and Ohio and conceding.

Here, read and learn:

http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

[Casprings]

152. No. Thats not what you Remove him for

The actual charges pushed by the GOP are BS.

[marble falls]

153. What do you think he should have been impeached over?

BTW, you never said who you cast your ballot for in 2000.

[Casprings]

154. For using a position of power to get sexual favors from someone he has power over

Gore

[marble falls]

157. Something he was never charged with, you're back to conjecture again.

[Casprings]

158. No he wasnt. Doesnt mean that wasnt what should have happened

[marble falls]

160. Name one person ever charged with that and ejudicated for it. Show me that law. Get out of your....

penchant for political science fiction for once in your life here at DU.

[Casprings]

161. Impeachment is a political process and its likely it would be a forced resignation

Because his party takes away political support.

[marble falls]

166. For which there was no political will for. Clinton left office with a great economy ....

no wars. His approval ratings were higher when he left than when he came in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Bill_Clinton



You keep trying to place the problem of and the solution for sex assault/ on specific individuals when what it will take is the sea change in public attitude that seems to be happening. By putting faces on it and not personalities.

Quit trying to subject today's awareness on individuals from almost thirty years ago with some sort of reverie about what could have been. Particularly over someone with the same sort of foibles that a lot of people had back then, a very popular and successful Democratic president bracketed by three dismal GOP ones.

Start reading some history, please.

[Casprings]

172. Because dems protected Clinton

The politics followed that. If dems in Congress didn’t support, the public wouldn’t had either.

[marble falls]

174. Bull Shit. Democrats were not holding Congress at this point....

And the public overwhelmingly supported the President.

Think President Obama in his second term. Only with a slim margin in the Senate.

[Casprings]

178. Depends the time.. not right when it came out

Public turned when the witch hunt aspect of the GOP came out in its fullest.

[Demsrule86]

225. Clinton should not have resigned nor have been forced out...sick of the sliming of

President Clinton...God I wish we had him back...and Gillibrand will not be the nominee ... Many will not support her in a primary. I would not...but of course I would vote for her in a GE... but she won't make it that far. There are plenty of great Democrats to choose from with good judgement.

[Hekate]

63. Intern who told her friends she was going to DC "to get her presidential kneepads"...

That's a fairly memorable turn of phrase. I think the young woman had a plan outside politics -- and she was no teenager.

There's a book called The Hunting of the President about the long-term project of the VRWC, about which Hillary was right and for saying so was mocked.

The impeachment of Bill Clinton was a vomit-inducing joke. Both Monica and Bill paid dearly for their mutual foolishness, she possibly more than he thanks to Ken Starr and the rest of the mongrel pack.

[Demsrule86]

226. Yes , you are correct... it was bullshit. And consider

that when squeaky clean Pres. Obama came along the right turned on him and refused to allow him to govern as well...this is what they do...and to those who suggest that Democrats should have joined in the right wing attacks against Pres. Clinton with some misguided belief that Gore would somehow win in 2000? Ridiculous, I don't know anyone could suggest such a thing . You don't help the enemy with the idea that down the road you somehow 'win'.

[tonedevil]

84. It could be remembered as...

Monica Lewinsky told friends before she left for her new internship at the Whitehouse that she was going to earn her presidential knee pads. While there she made more than one sexual overture to the President which were declined. Eventually there were sexual relations between them, but the tale as told be independent council Ken Starr is more of her pursuance than his.

[Casprings]

98. What is it with you people and blaming the powerless? NT

[tonedevil]

100. Did l misrepresent...

what happened? Is there something I wrote that is disputable? There was a power differential of immense proportions, but the investigation did show her as the initiator and a rather insistent one at that.

[Casprings]

103. The wife of a high school drama teacher who had an

Relationship with her said that. http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jan/28/news/mn-13032

One, that isn’t really that rock solid. Second, so what? She said something before she left home.

[Skittles]

134. YOU PEOPLE?

could you BE any more fucking obvious?

[Casprings]

139. Yes, you people who stand with Joe Manchin and Newt Gingrich

Let’s remind you that those are the people defending Al.

http://thehill.com/homenews/364168-gingrich-defends-franken-this-is-purely-and-simply-hysteria

So yes, those people.

[Skittles]

181. LOL

get some critical thinking skills, PLEASE

[Casprings]

182. Newt supported al because it undercuts dem arguments on trump

Or other gopers if they can say, “Both Sides”. They is why this is so important politically.

Get some yourself.

[Skittles]

186. bottom line is Franken was booted out over POLITICAL BULLSHIT

and NOTHING else

DONE HERE

[Casprings]

188. And seven women, including a democratic staffer say different

I am with the women. You people seem to be with Newt and Manchin.

[Jakes Progress]

197. Who is this "you people".

That's how the red necks I knew in the South used to refer to black voters.

Name the women you are with. I am with Al Franken, and I am with due process. Those red necks I marched against in the sixties didn't believe in due process either. So I guess you seem to be with the red necks and lynch mobs.

Oh, and you know why newt was trashing Democrats. He doesn't have to trash Al. Kirsten took care of that for him. So now he can go after those left. Kirsten did him a great favor.

[Casprings]

205. The people that defend the powerful over the powerless.. those people

[Jakes Progress]

234. You mean the KKK and the GOP.

You are saying that DU is like the GOP? The KKK.

You are in way over your head. "Lose" that sign-in all over again and try with more awareness. Gellibrand has done almost nothing for the powerless, but lots for herself. Franked has spent his entire career doing good while not pushing himself into the headlines.

You are too obvious. A little bit of cunning is required for the game you are playing.

[Demsrule86]

227. Two righty women and some anonymous... who should not be counted. We know for a fact that

the first two were plants...and isn't it funny how nobody else has come forward since the GOP got what they wanted...hmm...nope...I won't vote for any who betrayed Franken with this crap in a primary.

[Jakes Progress]

236. Good point. No one since the resignation. breitbart wins again.

[Demsrule86]

239. That is what it was...they took a safe seat and made it competitive...the GOP slime machine...

we must not participate in this crap.

[cwydro]

146. Thank you.

Unreal.

[cwydro]

148. Um what is this word in your post?

“Possiable?”

Hmm.

[Hekate]

61. How old are you anyway?

[lunamagica]

68. If that is so, why did Gillibrand gladly accept endorsements, support and money from

the Clintons?

I find her opportunistic hypocrisy repulsive.

[marble falls]

42. "While debates about due process are legitimate, if wrong," sounds like an insult is coming ....

and here it is, "these sexist attacks on the Senator should stop." So what you even admit are "legitimate" argument is sexist. Anyone who argues against you is sexist. And we should stop out arguing you with "legitimate" due process concerns just because you say its wrong.

The only unreasonable seeming voice here is your own.

[quickesst]

44. Exactly how is it sexist...

... to question gillibrand's motivation? Also, why are you attacking the women who are questioning gillibrand's motivation, and exactly where does that leave your accusation of sexism where they are concerned?

[doc03]

49. She led the charge on Senator Franken in order to position herself for

2020. I for one will remember, believe me.

[MoonRiver]

55. Most of the Democratic Base will remember.

Regarding the 2020 nomination, she's toast.

[LenaBaby61]

97. A friend's sister in NY has soured on her ...

And she'd been sending monies in support of her possible presidential run in 2020. 2 other friends have soured on her who also live in NY. The fourth friend is seeing how things play out down the road as to whether she votes for Gilibrand in whatever capacity. I'm not saying that Gilibrand won't have support if she ultimately does make a run at the presidency in 2020 (Assuming we have elections), because she HAS done a great job in advancing woman's rights/causes and has spoken out on sexual harassment etc. in the military--ALL of which are extremely important. But, she really "stepped in it" when she drug Bill Clinton into the mix with her remarks about him during a podcast where she said he should have stepped aside because of his affair with Lewinsky, and it seems that she really only went after pussy-grabbing fatso post the Franken debacle. She lead the charge in telling Franken to just GO, and that didn't and still doesn't sit right with MANY Dems, some of which I know who are still mad with her over the Franken situation. I wonder if she even KNOWS that Tweeden is buddies with Don The Con Jr., and that she probably orchestrated the whole Al Franken smear campaign with thuglicans operatives help.

[IluvPitties]

78. Exactly.

[Alice11111]

168. +1000

[democratisphere]

59. Gillibrand may have fought for women, but she sure as hell wouldn't

fight for an innocent man and leader of our Democratic Party. NO EXCUSES !

[Rene]

64. fingers in ears..don't want to hear it. she backstabbed a fellow Democrat without waiting for hearin

she's done

[KPN]

76. Baloney. eom

[Dan]

77. Eunuchs for Gillibrand

[question everything]

80. And following the oldest rule in the book: trash your rival so it will elevate yourself

"rival" in this case is man, any man, especially someone who has fought to help women, to pass a law making it easier for victims to find remedy.

Google Abby Honold Act.

If passed, the “Abby Honold Act” would create a two-year test program that would see better training for investigators when they interview sexual assault victims in hopes of making it more likely that rapists face criminal charges.

Amy Klobuchar now picked it, but it started with Franken

http://www.startribune.com/klobuchar-emmer-introduce-bipartisan-abby-honold-act/465762083/

[mn9driver]

82. Thats funny. Al Franken did the same thing.

And Gillibrand stabbed him in the back. By respecting the women who were making these unsupported claims, Franken gave Gillibrand the opening to eliminate him as competition for her ambitions.

We now know that the safe response to accusations of #metoo is to deny, disrespect and dismiss these accusations. Gillibrand is directly responsible for this.

[aikoaiko]

85. You doth protest too much...

and now I think....

[IMG][/IMG]

I'm ambivalent about Franken's resignation, but posts evoke a negative reaction in me.

[IluvPitties]

87. We should use the term "Gillibranding"

...to describe the railroading of a Dem by another Dem.

[democratisphere]

89. Great term worth adopting!

[dalton99a]

127. Very nice

[cwydro]

144. I like this!

Perfect.

[JI7]

93. She Denied Women who Worked for Al Franken Their Right to be Heard

and instead accepted what a Fucking Birther and a No Talent attention seeking buffoon had to say.

[Stinky The Clown]

96. ...

[ollie10]

101. Lame to say it is sexist to attack her position on Senator Franken....

Her position on Senator Franken was reprehensible. Not because she is a woman. Because she took an unprincipled position.

What's it going to be next? Whatever position Gillibrand takes, if someone disagrees then they are sexist? That is total and utter bullshit.

[Casprings]

105. Policing your side is what a principled position looks like.

This was 7 events and 7 women.

[ollie10]

106. so Stone is now on our side?

bull shit.

Gillibrand was simply promoting her own political ambitions....and she was unwittingly following Stone's play book

Quite frankly, Franken was willing from the start to face the ethics committee. Gillibrand....coward and fool that she is....didn't have the intelligence to simply let this take its course. Too busy doing Stone's bidding, unwitting tool of the Republican Hate Machine that she has turned out to be.

I guess greed for power damaged her judgement.

We don't need people like that running for president. We need good Democrats. She ain't one

[Casprings]

107. The first may have been stone..

That doesn’t make it untrue. It does provide some doubt. However, all 7 are not stone

[ollie10]

109. how many are anonymous?

The anonymous accusers may not have even been women!!!!!

The principle Gillibrand follows: innocent until she decides you are guilty

[SMC22307]

114. A Roger Stone-backed right-wing "victim" and another triggered...

because Franken touched her fat roll during a photo in which she had her arm around his shoulders and he around her waist (you know, like bazillions of photos around the planet).

Anyone who believes those two women is a damn fool. How many are anonymous (four?) and why do you believe them? Come forward like the Drumpf and Roy Moore accusers...

[Ghost Owl]

195. It's not as simple as you seem to want it to be

And 2 of the women recounted events that weren't even sexual in nature, or even malicious: the women who thought Al might kiss her on the mouth (but he didn't) and Dupuy, who asked for a picture and Franken put his arm around her waist (which she didn't like, and that's fine; but just because she didn't like it doesn't mean Franken did anything wrong, his gesture was innocent; sometimes shit like this is just a miscommunication, two people with different approaches having a bit of a clash of expectations).

2 other women (both of whom were anonymous), Franken denied outright their claims (the bathroom one, and the "it's my right as an entertainer" ) . Especially with the Entertainer claim, being that she said she was a congressional staffer, her story could have been verified to an extent by an outside source who would agree to keep her identity a secret. But that never happened. And we don't know what, if any, research and corroboration Politico did into her claim, other than talk to two people who said the staffer told them about it years ago. But I noticed they never said in the article if they, for example, asked for Air America's records of their guests (it has to exist somewhere), to see if the person she said she worked for was on when she said they were (and that would still keep her anonymous, as they would not ask for a specific person or date; just a list of all the guests). Did they ever verify she was a staffer at the time, and that she went with her boss to the Air America studios? WE DON'T KNOW. Because unlike WaPo and the Moore accusations, there seems to have been very little vetting done with Franken's accusers.

So that leaves us with two Republicans (Menz and Kemplin) who say Franken groped them in public while a camera was on them but nobody else saw it (which seems unlikely, but possible), one anonymous Democrat who was friends with the person who wrote the article (Huffpost), and Tweeden, who exaggerated parts of her story, or just plain made shit up (for example, she said she avoided Franken for years after, wasn't friendly, walked away from him wordlessly when she ran into him at some function; but she went to a dinner in his honor in 2009, where she's seen and photographed laughing and chatting with him; she did not need to lie about this, she could have said went to the dinner and made nice with him, because that doesn't mean he didn't do what she said he did; however, she chose to lie about that, which is so stupid because it's so easily disproven).

It is not as clear as you seem to want to make it out to be. Now I am not saying I know Franken is 100% innocent and all these women are maliciously lying. I don't know that. But I do know there's some weird shit, enough reasonable doubt, that warrants an investigation before Franken is pressured to resign. And I would say that about anyone, even Ted Cruz.

The reason the Franken ousting is getting such negative feedback is not that people are all pro-groping. It's because nobody seems to have done their job and VETTED the accusations, it's a hodgepodge of semi-anonymous (and sometimes only semi-accurate) claims over 7 different media outlets, sometimes with no vetting at all, and the first claim was shady as hell (and it should be noted that all additional claims came AFTER an alt-right media figure offered to pay people to come out and accuse Franken of being an abuser; look up Charles C. Johnson, he's that ginger idiot who met with Assange in London; that doesn't mean all these women are lying for money, but it should be looked into at least, especially considering the number of other false claims against Dem Senators that have been happening lately, like Blumenthal, Schumer and Menendez). That should not be how sexual harassment claims are handled, that does no favors to the victims, much less the accused.

[Demsrule86]

102. I Won't vote for her in a primary...end of story. She showed a lack of judgement with Franken.

Of course I would vote for her in a general...but I doubt she makes it that far. Leave Biden alone. He is great...I would vote for him in a primary, but would prefer someone new.

[Casprings]

104. So dont state a completely true fact about Biden because you dont like it? NT

[Demsrule86]

141. I am really tired of the attacks on Biden concerning Anita Hill... he is a great guy and was a

great Vice president...and he has way more chance than Senator Gillibrand to win a primary or a general (terrible sexism out there too)...you should leave him alone. Biden has proven himself and made up for the Anita Hill thing...in my opinion...perhaps one day Senator Gillibrand will make up for the Franken fiasco but it will take time...certainly not by 2020. As I said, I would vote for her in a general...but not a primary.

[Casprings]

149. I didnt say I didnt like Biden.. still cant erase history

[rzemanfl]

108. 1,954 views, 4 recs. I don't think you have won over you audience. n/t

[Demonaut]

111. the OP reaffirmed my disgust of Gillibrand...it wasn't a wasted post

[Brother Buzz]

116. Umm, those four recs are from compulsive recommenders

Hell, one has 23 PAGES of rec in just the last ninety days.

I'm just saying.

[rzemanfl]

120. Hey Buzz, Merry Christmas or should I say Happy Holidays to spite Drumpf? n/t

[Skittles]

110. LOL

complete, utter bullshit

[Takket]

112. Gillibrand was a superstar and 2020 favorite in my mind

but she made a virtually unforgivable lapse in judgement. I actually hold the unpopular opinion here that Franken should step down but only AFTER being given his due process and fair chance. At which point I would have supported him remaining most likely if everyone got to tell their story, and not just the accuser, which is what turned out happened.

I just don't know if I can trust someone that will crush one of her own allies like a bug when she sees a chance to grasp a leadership role on an issue, such as women's rights in the #metoo movement. It was a very Trumpian maneuver.

[SHRED]

113. She will never get a Presidential primary vote from me

Never ever.

[dflprincess]

115. And Al Franken stood with her through the fight

while Claire McCaskill helped kill Gillibrand's bill that would have done something about sexual assault in the military.

Which senator did more damage to women and who should Gillibrand have thrown under the bus?

She's dead to me.

[cadmium]

118. Defending Senator Gellibrand context-longer post

Gillibrand may have been too quick with her first call, based on the first questionanble charge. In general however it was the best move. I don't think Doug Jones would have had the momentum if we ignored Al. There are reportedly several other charges and dragging it out wouldn't help unless they were all false. Franken is brilliantly talented in cross examining appointees--so unless his replacement has that talent we are losing that talent. I think taking the ethical high ground makes it worth it. Tina Smith is progressive and she is younger than Al --may keep the seat long ---time will tell. I doubt she is as talented & tough in debate, but that's a sacrifice we may need to make to stay credible on getting rid of Republican leches and pervs. She is liberal smart and vastly experienced.

I object to demonizing Kristin Gellibrand for Franken's errors. They do note she was first. Loosely translated for the Hill:

Democratic senators came out in droves Wednesday calling for Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) to resign following multiple accusations of groping and improper sexual conduct

"While Senator Franken is entitled to have the Ethics Committee conclude its review, I believe it would be better for our country if he sent a clear message that any kind of mistreatment of women in our society isn’t acceptable by stepping aside to let someone else serve," SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-N.Y.), the first out with a statement, said in a message posted on Facebook.
The statements mark a shift for Democratic senators who previously dodged calls for Franken to resign despite a growing number of allegations against him. As recently as last week they said they were waiting for the Ethics Committee to review the accusations against him.

That changed when a new charge became public on Wednesday from a woman who said the senator has sought to forcibly kiss her in a 2006 incident.

Six female Democratic senators quickly followed Gillibrand in saying that Franken should step down: Sens. KAMALA HARRIS (CALIF.), CLAIRE MCCASKILL (MO.), PATTY MURRAY (WASH.), MAZIE HIRONO (HAWAII), TAMMY BALDWIN (WIS.) AND MAGGIE HASSAN (N.H.).

"I believe the best thing for Senator Franken to do is step down," Harris said.
By early afternoon, SEN. DICK DURBIN (ILL.), THE NO. 2 DEMOCRAT, AND DEMOCRATIC SENS. DEBBIE STABENOW (MICH.), HEIDI HEITKAMP (N.D.), BOB CASEY JR. (PA.), SHERROD BROWN (OHIO), JOE DONNELLY (IND.), MICHAEL BENNET (COLO.), ED MARKEY (MASS.), MARIA CANTWELL (WASH.), PATRICK LEAHY (VT.), DIANNE FEINSTEIN (CALIF.), MARTIN HEINRICH (N.M.), TAMMY DUCKWORTH (ILL.), JEFF MERKLEY (ORE.), TOM CARPER (DEL.), RON WYDEN (ORE.), TOM UDALL (N.M.), CHRIS MURPHY (CONN.), GARY PETERS (MICH.) AND SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (R.I.) HAD ALSO CALLED ON FRANKEN TO RESIGN.

SENS. BERNIE SANDERS (VT.) AND ANGUS KING (MAINE), both Independents who caucus with the Democrats, also called on Franken to step down.

I feel that singling just Gillibrand for blame is just a sneaky way to attack her. If the call was so bogus why didn't all the bold progressive heroes in Senate oppose her. JOE MANCHIN of Virginia is the only Sen I know of that advocated waiting. One reason I also cut Kristen Gellibrand slack is that this has been a an issue == i.e. addressing sex abuse in military as a fr instance that she has consistently advocated. If Senators feel differently -- let them speak. JOE MANCHIN of WVa seems to have been the only one who bucked the crowd I am impressed by Kristen Gellibrand's determination -- especially the way she shot back at Trump immediately - unblinking--resolute--and appears ready to put down any further slurs from Trump

[Casprings]

119. +1000000000000000000

[fallout87]

122. Who is this person I will never vote for?

She railroaded Franken. What's to stop her from doing it to another dem?

[cadmium]

124. maybe

We don't know the 7-8 or so unpublished charges. Possibly Franken railroaded himself. Even if not---look an the list of Dem & Independent Heroes that called for his resignation --- If your stance is correct it should include everyone from Schumer, --> Warren, Sanders and most in-between calling for Al to resign. Only Joe Minchin WV has objected in the senate

[IluvPitties]

125. Well said.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

126. I reiterate again:

[shanny]

128. "From the day she became a Senator?"

interesting qualifier. Highlights the problem. Gillibrand has gone wherever the prevailing winds take her. Which doesn't make her brave.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

216. Does make one wonder?

[flotsam]

129. 2300 views, 125 replies

and STILL haven't received the 5 recs to go to the greatest page...I've seen grocery lists get a warmer reception. Maybe it's time to fold your tent and fade away-you and your ideas don't seem too popular here.

[OnDoutside]

136. +1000

[Casprings]

137. Popular does not equal right

Heck, my first few posts were hidden by a Jury.

That said, I am on the side of Sen Waren. DU seems to be on the side of Joe Manchin.

[marble falls]

177. You're proud of having a few hides? I guarantee if you have four more you'll be the most popular...

person on DU. This little post just might help you along.

[ProfessorGAC]

211. You Would Know

In this case, you're neither.

[SeaDoo77]

130. My Money Is On Gillibrand Losing In A Primary

No way she wins nomination for Dems.

[Hav]

135. I wouldn't bet on her

Pissing off the supporters of a very popular Dem Senator and the Clintons? I wouldn't be surprised to see another New Yorker emerging as a strong challenger so that she wouldn't even win the NY primary.

[LBM20]

142. She is DONE as a presidential nominee. She chose to lead a witch hunt. FOR SHAME!

[Joe941]

151. The fact is: if she is the presidential nomination in 2020 we will all line up and vote for her...

regardless of what people might say now.

[dansolo]

156. She wont get that far

She has pissed off far to many loyal Democrats to get enough support in 2020.

[Joe941]

170. I hope you are right.

[Demit]

180. This event may very well have defined her.

If she does focus groups in the exploratory portion of running, she may find that potential voters have a lingering negative impression of who she is. She might not be perceived as the hero she thought she was.

Financial backers might not be so willing to back another divisive figure.

She just might have overplayed her hand.

[FarPoint]

155. For me...

This is flamebait.....I find her a huge, huge disappointment......

[Buns_of_Fire]

169. ...and so begins the first skirmish of the 2020 campaign. nt

[Casprings]

173. I like Harris.. she was also on the right side of this

Who is DU supporting? Joe Manchin? That’s the only senator I can think of with Al.

[Buns_of_Fire]

200. Supporting as in agreeing with, or supporting as in presidential material?

In this matter (and that's all I'm looking at right now), Manchin is right -- Franken was railroaded. Gillibrand was wrong -- she lead the railroading.

That (D) after someone's name doesn't make them immune from criticism when they do something stupid. Manchin has been raked over the coals here many times, and often deservedly so. Now it's Gillbrand's turn.

As for 2020, I'll wait until we get some declared candidates. But first, 2018.

[workinclasszero]

171. Unrec

She lead a mob in a rush to judgment that took out a great liberal senator and put the seat in jeopardy.

Any presidential aspirations Gillibrand may have had got run outta town along with poor Al Franken.

Roger Stone and his republican operative totally approve of Gillibrand's folly though along with the serial sex assaulter pervert in the white house who sure as hell ain't giving up his office!

[Jakes Progress]

183. We keep getting these

OP's championing gillibrand and trashing Franken from fairly new DU members. Always happy to have someone new aboard, but this is the third one I've seen with the same agenda. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I do not notice a lot of the long time members defending the gillibranding of Franken.

I wonder if someone's campaign saw the need for cover by bot. I guess it's not the first time DU would be used for political gain or cover. You gotta believe that russia tried to use DU. But I do not notice a lot of the long time members defending the gillibranding of Franken.

[Casprings]

184. I posted here for years here

But couldn’t log on after the hack on Election Day. I made a new account after that.

[rzemanfl]

189. What, pray tell, was your username? n/t

[Jakes Progress]

192. So, when did you feel the need

to establish a new account?

Don't care about your motive or your history. You are wrong about this issue. Your feelings on this issue serve only kirsten gillibrand - not the party - not the country. They are not reflected by the large majority of the progressive membership of DU. Having a minority opinion is perfectly okay. But if you support the agenda of the Democratic party and the goals of DU, it ought to make you feel the need to question those opinions when so many liberal minds differ from your views.

I sort of want to ask if those opinions are part of a script or job description, but I won't. I prefer to think that you are writing for yourself and are just wrong about this.

[Casprings]

193. Couldnt figure out how to get my old account to work once the election hack happened

Posted under BrentWil.

I am not writing for anyone but myself and I actually think it is DU that is in the miniorty on the left. Literally no leader in the Democratic Party besides Joe Manchin is supporting al. That tells you something.

[Jakes Progress]

196. So you don't like DU?

You think DU is not representative of the ideals of the Democratic Party? So tell us again why you feel the burning progressive fire to post on this site? You think that the people of the Democratic party are not who the party is? You sound like you think the people in office are the ones who matter, that their opinions are more important than the people in the party. You sound like someone in office who thinks they are more important or like someone on a staff who writes these things for someone in office who needs to defend crappy actions.

Doesn't work that way. We are the party. Just because someone has a D by their name doesn't give them license. When those in office screw up, they need to own up.

[Casprings]

204. Its a subset that I enjoyed posting on

But you are fing kidding yourself if you thing DU is representative of the party.

[rzemanfl]

206. BrentWil's last post here before the hack was in May 2015.

Did you lose interest after that?

[Jakes Progress]

233. You are a hoot.

And not very good at this. Too transparent and way too obvious.

[kstewart33]

187. I'm with Senator Gillibrand all the way.

She is a leader for women in the Senate. She has worked tirelessly for years to get sexual assault cases in the military in the hands of outside investigators and prosecutors. No one else in the Senate is working as hard as she has worked for women's causes.

We don't know all of the facts in Al Franken's situation. She may have been right or wrong in what she did. We don't know. But I'm not about to ditch her because of a situation where we do not know all the facts.

[Jakes Progress]

190. I'm not.

She has switched and played with headlines tirelessly in order to further her career. That is not unusual. She is a politician. But she is not a guidepost for the Democratic party. In this case she screwed up. Hoping to play for the position of party leader, she jumped the gun. She read a questionable poll and chased after it without regard for truth or fairness. It does not speak well for her leadership or judgement, let alone her sense of justice.

You are right that we don't seem to know all of the facts about the Al Franken situation. We don't know whether we do or not. We know that gilliabrand did not know all of the facts before she rushed (the headlines) to judgement. So in that case we know she was wrong in what she did. We do know. I will support any Democratic primary against her because she didn't care what she did to the party, to Franken, to the country when she acted without knowing all of the facts.

[rzemanfl]

209. I should have read yours before posting mine. I agree 100%. n/t

[kstewart33]

219. I suspect that she and other Dem Senators know more than we do.

The women Democratic Senators who called for Al to resign had previously decided that if one more allegation emerged, then they would call for his resignation. One did and they did. This was reported by CNN and MSNBC.

True, Gillibrand is a politician. But her latest approval rating at 53% (July 2017) puts her well into the top half of the Senate so it's unlikely that she will be primaried.

[Jakes Progress]

235. Ahhh. The old "I suspect" gimmick.

That means you have no idea.

Gellibrand had no idea. She was chasing polls. Just howl many unsubstantiated accusations does it take? If breitbart got eight men to claim (anonymously) that Kirsten had tried to grope them when they were teenagers, would you support Manchin demanding the she resign?

We'll see about the primary. We need more honesty and less poll chasing in our leaders.

[rzemanfl]

208. But perfectly willing to see Franken resign without knowing all the facts? n/t

[kstewart33]

231. No, I certainly wasn't happy about it.

I'm torn about it. But I don't support primarying Gillibrand given that she may well have acted based on information that we don't have.

And while Al's indiscretions in no way as far as we know, compares with Moore, Lauer and company, I do wish Al had kept his hands to himself. If he had, he'd still be in the Senate.

But many kudos for Al in how he handled the situation. Completely classy, all the way.

[rzemanfl]

232. Going high isn't working so great. n/t

[Jakes Progress]

237. You really need to stop thinking that politicians

are so all-knowing. If there were more to this, it would have already been on CNN, faux, and MSNBC. They have money and people looking for exactly that stuff. Gellibrand (and I'm sad to say, the other duped senators) was, at best, the victim of a witch hunt. Read "The Crucible".

They didn't know anything other than having aides read them polls. Notice that there have been no more accusers since breitbart got what it wanted out of the ruse. Basically, our senators got duped. They rushed when they should have waited for something more than the Friday news deadline. Senator Hirono was on Rachel the day after the infamous senatorial press release fury. She was asked if they had more information, something more definite. She said no, they didn't. They just thought it was all too much and that it was time. She seemed a little miffed that Kirsten got her press release demanding resignation out before she did. She said she had hers all ready and was surprised to see Gellibrand released hers. So she said she rushed to her office to send out her press release. Then the others all fell in line. A reaction that breitbart only dreamed of. We seem to be able to fall in such a way as to make the right wing press happy every time.

Don't fall for it.

[kstewart33]

238. Really.

I worked on salary for two Congressional campaigns in my twenties, as the associate manager of one, in Alabama no less. We lost one, and won one.

I think I understand who and what politicians are. But thanks for the advice.

[Jakes Progress]

241. You're welcome.

I think you are too close. Sure. If you are part of the circus, you have to think that the circus performers are the coolest things ever. I have worked for a number of politicians. The honest ones will tell you that they are just treading water. The liars will try to snow everyone, especially their staff. They have feet of clay, but I respect the honest ones because they are regular people who take on this job that no one really wants. Actually, some do want it, but they want it for themselves. The honest ones who put themselves on the line deserve respect and deserve to be listened to. We disagree if you think that Gillibrand is one of those and Franken is not.

Again. Read "The Crucible".

[kstewart33]

242. Respectfully...

Do you honestly think that campaign staffers believe that their candidate is the coolest thing ever? That in my two campaigns, I believed the candidate was the cat's meow? No, I didn't.

Politics and people's motivations are much more complex than that.

Al Franken's character could well be better than Gillibrand's.

I read 'The Crucible' in high school. Arthur Miller's best, I think.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Jakes Progress]

243. We could do that.

I would even say that Franken could possibly be as bad as Gillibrand claims. But there is no supporting evidence that it is so. All evidence of prior behavior and the testimony (with names attached) of his co-worker women in his offices and at SNL indicate that he was the victim of a hatchet job. His decent behavior towards his accusers and his willingness to examine his own behavior were used against him.

In the Senate version of Miller's play we have this cast.

Al Franken plays Elizabeth Proctor
LeeAnn Tweeden plays Abigail
Gillibrand plays Gov. Danforth. (Or if you want to be generous, she could be Reverend Hale)

Divide up the other accusers among the girls in the town and the infamous list of Senators as the town council and various true-believers.

This just got away from them. I wish they had the bravery to admit it.

[kstewart33]

244. Your understanding of 'The Crucible' is impressive.

Are/were you a literature major? I wanted to be, but chose political science instead.

You may be right about the situation getting away from those who stepped away from Al. I'd wager that a factor among the women senators was their deep understanding and resentment of the misogyny in the Senate and House and the abusive process for women (and men) who report sexual harassment. Very likely, they were sick and tired of it.

A recent Minnesota poll found that most of the respondents preferred that Al stay in the Senate, especially the women respondents. Now, that's ironic isn't it? That result opens the door a bit to Al running again.

Thanks for conversing.

[Jakes Progress]

246. I understand the resentment

of those who have been living with that kind of abuse. To me, that is why it is important to get it right and not let the people like stone and breitbart use the movement. I think that, deep down, that is why there is so much resentment towards Gillibrand. Many women see her being used and letting herself get duped and think that she is taking her eyes of the real problem for the headlines.

I don't know if Al could run again. I don't think I could if I were in his place. He gave up a lucrative career and gave his all to the causes of the Democratic party - and they turned on him in a heartbeat. Colleagues he worked with and respected (and some I used to respect) dumped him and dumped on him without a second thought. How could he work with those people again? How could he work on committees and chair meetings with those who used him so horribly? I couldn't. But maybe he is a better man than I.

Enjoyed the conversation.

[Demsrule86]

229. He is a Democrat...she came out before any investigation and asked for him to resign...that is it as

far as I am concerned...and what will happen if McConnell refuses to seat his replacement? Also she made comments about President Clinton...I would vote for her in a general but never in a primary.

[Jakes Progress]

198. Sounds like a Gillibrand for President stump speech.

Who wrote that stuff?

Judging from how well this is working, maybe Kirsen's office ought to try to stop it.

[ucrdem]

201. You're entitled to defend her but giving credence to RW defamations was a huge mistake.

Possibly not fatal to her reelection in NY but almost certainly to any national ambitions she might have had.

[NCTraveler]

207. Shady way to attack a Democrat.

Completely unnecessary to make your point. Completely.

Transparent.

[woolldog]

245. Wow!

240+ posts in this thread, over 4000 views and only 7 recs! Pathetic. That has to be some sort of record.