Cenk jumps the shark and gets completely shredded by kossacks.

[cali]

Who is More Conservative: Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama? Hotlist
by Cenk Uygur
Digg this! Share this on Twitter - Who is More Conservative: Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama?Tweet this submit to reddit Share This
Thu Jul 08, 2010 at 03:17:01 AM PDT

Who is more conservative - Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama?

* Cenk Uygur's diary :: ::
*

If you think that's an absurd question, you're not alone. We had this discussion on The Dylan Ratigan Show when I was filling in for him on MSNBC and both of my guests thought it was absurd. A conservative website led with the headline that it was absurd (though they did not present one single fact to back up their claim). Except as it turns out, based on the facts, it is a really hard question to answer. And it would be absurd to claim otherwise.

Ronald Reagan:

• Gave Amnesty to Illegal Immigrants
• Negotiated with Terrorists (Traded Arms for Hostages with Iran)
• Raised Taxes on a Large Scale Four Times (After Initially Lowering Them)
• Negotiated with the "Evil Empire" without Pre-conditions
• Made a Decision to "Cut and Run" From Lebanon After Our Troops Were Attacked

In fact, as you look at the Reagan list, it seems he is the exact opposite of what conservatives now claim they want. It looks like the caricature of what they think liberals do. There is no way that even Dennis Kucinich would be able to do all of those things; he certainly wouldn't negotiate with terrorists the way Reagan did.

<snip>

• Escalated the Afghanistan War (Added 30,000 More Troops)
• Escalated the Afghanistan War (Added 30,000 More Troops)
• Has Ordered Drone Strikes (Assassinations) on US Citizens Outside the Country
• Gave Drug Companies Near Monopoly Power by Barring Imports, Extending Patents and Not Allowing the Government to Negotiate Better Prices
• Funneled Billions into the Biggest Banks in the Country After They Crashed the Economy
• Stacked Deficit Commission with Fiscal Conservatives
• Lowered Taxes Significantly (Stimulus Bill)
• Ordered Increased Offshore Drilling Before BP Spill

<snip>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/7/8/882569/-Who-is-More-Conservative:-Ronald-Reagan-or-Barack-Obama

[Robb]

1. Yay!

Message boards thrive on controversy. Traffic, traffic, traffic! :D

[CherylK]

85. The OP left out the most imporant part of the blog!!!

From Cenk's blog...

I don't think Obama is a hard right-winger. It's just that the political establishment in this country has moved so far to the right (though not the public, according to polls on specific issues) that as a natural politician when he goes to appease them, he is solidly center-right on the spectrum.

[donco6]

2. If by "shredded" you mean flooded with "Neener Neener" posts -

yeah, you're right.

Otherwise, it's an interesting article.

[cali]

3. uh, no. I mean shredded as in called on his dishonesty and

confronted with facts and some intellectual acuity, something Cenk is way short on.

It's interesting to sophomoric and febrile minds, I suppose.

[donco6]

4. I guess we have a different definition of "sophomoric":

Typical response to Cenk article:

"You do know this is a DEMOCRATIC site right? Why on earth people think their "Obama & Dem's suck!" diaries will get a good reception here is beyond me."

"especially wacko poseurs that come here, start shit, and post and run, using this site as a vehicle to self promote their bullshit free of charge. I do not consider this diarist a kossack in any sense and frankly wish he'd just go the fuck away and stay gone."

"Cenk is an awful, awful writer who uses this site to drive people to his radio show. He is the worst kind of unoriginal thinker who cobbles together memes from Arianna Huffington and a few others on the blogosphere and recycles them to gain attention.

But here has crossed a line into creating an alternate history. I don't know if he's deeply cynical or a not smart person, but this is literally some of the dumbest shit I've read anywhere."

I guess if you believe this to be "intellectual acuity" then we're on different planets.

[cali]

6. how cute. you're emulating Cenk and cherry picking.

[donco6]

7. I guess I could post the whole response column

Because it's all the same.

In fact, it sounds pretty much like a typical clusterchuck here.

[cali]

8. bullshit.

What?? (21+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
missLotus, litho, magurakurin, sviscusi, missliberties, Lawrence, Matt Esler, sebastianguy99, kefauver, Dauphin, skohayes, Pragmaticus, MKSinSA, oxfdblue, TFinSF, stegro, kirbybruno, Eclectablog, Dom9000, Driver 8

The bottom line is that, no matter what the reason, Obama seems to be in some important ways significantly to the right of Reagan on the political spectrum.

Sorry I think you have lost it to think this community is stupid like some teabaggers.

...and here is a reminder to you about how conservative Reagan would have been...Gawd, this place has gone insane:

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act

College Tuition Inflation Bill increasing the amount of federal Pell Grant awards and stripping banks privileges as intermediaries for student loan servicing

The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act

Health Care Reform

SCHIP health-care program

Public Lands bill

Credit card industry reform

Jobs bill

Government Transparency especially on lobbyist’s access to the White House

The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act

Extended benefits to same-sex partners of federal employees

Instructed HHS to allow hospital visitation rights to LGBT couples

Banning of job discrimination based on gender identity

Giving benefits for Same-Sex Domestic Partners of Foreign Service Employees

Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut spending

Appointment of first Latina to the Supreme Court

Beginning the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq

No permanent bases in Iraq

Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date

No torture policy

Ended media blackout on war casualties; reporting full information covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB

Housing rescue plan

US Auto industry rescue plan

Federal support for stem-cell research

Cash for clunkers program offers vouchers to trade in fuel inefficient, polluting old cars for new cars stimulating auto sales

Making more loans available to small businesses

Increased funding for the Violence Against Women Act

Expand the Nurse-Family Partnership to all low-income, first-time mothers

Increase minority access to capital

Establish a credit card bill of rights

Close the "doughnut hole" in Medicare prescription drug plan

Require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions

Expand eligibility for Medicaid

Increase funding to expand community based prevention programs

those are called facts- facts that cenky purposefully ommitted.
And anyone who thinks RR would have supported the above, is just a frackin' idiot.

[donco6]

9. Yeah, that's the same "Promises Kept" list that floated around here.

It's a yawner over there, too.

[cali]

10. bwahahahaha. "it's a yawner"

that's the best you can do?

[donco6]

12. It's a yawner because it's not on point.

Cenk's main point in the article is that this should NOT be a difficult question to answer:

Who is More Conservative: Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama?
by Cenk Uygur

Cenk Uygur's diary :: ::

If you think that's an absurd question, you're not alone. We had this discussion on The Dylan Ratigan Show when I was filling in for him on MSNBC and both of my guests thought it was absurd. A conservative website led with the headline that it was absurd (though they did not present one single fact to back up their claim). Except as it turns out, based on the facts, it is a really hard question to answer. And it would be absurd to claim otherwise.



He then goes on to list the diffeences with the lists you posted in your OP. His whole point being, Why do we, today, have to wonder if our Democratic leaders are truly liberal or not? Why do we have to scratch our heads in bafflement when we see them making decisions that would have given the old time conservatives like Reagan pause? So, just posting prefab lists of "promises kept" doesn't really get to the heart of the issue. We shouldn't have to be wondering why our leaders make the decisions they do. Overall, its an interesting question, and the responses are generally silly and pointless regurgitations of "You never loved Obama."

[ProSense]

14. "Except as it turns out, based on the facts, it is a really hard question to answer."

No, Cenk is an idiot. It's not a hard question to answer.

[donco6]

26. More ad hominem. n/t

[dionysus]

45. i think it's allowed to call Cenk of the Fisher Price TV Studio Playset what he is.

:shrug:

[MedicalAdmin]

79. I agree. It's easy to answer. Reagan was a great president.

And Obama is not shaping up to be that (yet - I'm hopeful but doubtful and, by nature, a fence sitter so neener, neener).

By great I mean that Reagan was able to steer the US into an entirely new paradigm, one that was devistating and which continues to hurt the USA and it's citizens with the glaring exception of the very rich. He was able to fundamentally change the shape of the SCOTUS, legitimize supply side economics, and worse. Don't get me wrong, I hate Reagan and all he stood for, but he was very good at getting people to agree with him and at getting things done. Despicable human being, horrible policies, but darned good at selling his BS.

Obama has made some changes and I will admit that he seems a capable manager. But as a leader he is not doing as well as many had hoped. If he had, would we be having this discussion?

[cali]

17. For anyone with even the slightest knowledge of history, it's easy to

answer. RR who wanted to completely dismantle the social safety net, who played the southern strategy, who had nothing but contempt for the environment, who fired the air traffic controllers, who catered to the corporations and wealthy in a way unseen until bushy jr, who nominated Bork, and on and on.

Cenk's argument is absurd and easily refuted.

[boston bean]

19. So are you saying they are alike....

food for thought:

the catfood commission

the health insurance reform, and TBTF

Offshore drilling

Charter Schools and weakening of teachers unions?

I will give you that he hasn't nominated a Bork. I like his picks for SCOTUS.

[cali]

23. Clearly that's not what I'm saying

furthermore, the offshore drilling "expansion" was for exploratory and would have taken years to ever really expand-if ever. Right now, Obama is fighting in court to continue a moratorium on off shore drilling. Do you really think Reagan would take that position? Really?

As for health insurance reform- it's more than any other president has achieved, and we really don't know how it will pan out.

It's just Alice in Wonderland delusion to claim Obama is as or more conservative as RR.

Or it's a flat out lie.

Take your pick.

[boston bean]

31. I don't need to pick cali.

Obama has veered to the right.

I think there is a comparison to be made. I think Cenk has it wrong. Obama is not more right than Reagan, he's about on the same level, imho.

Obama has stated that he believes Reagan was one of the transformative presidents and that he strives to be that type of president.

I don't like presidents that say one thing and do another. I think they are more alike than anyone is willing to admit.

[cali]

the ignorance here about Nixon and Reagan is truly and deeply pathetic.

I'm sorry but anyone who actually believes that Reagan and Obama are about the same, is in dire, and I mean dire, need of the facts.

[boston bean]

37. Cali I think it's dire that someone won't look objectively at the overall direction of his policies.

Obama wants to be the type of president Reagan was. He realizes how far Reagan turned this country to the right by fooling people with his words. But I suppose where you and I would disagree is that Obama wants to be that type of President, but bring the country to the left, the opposite of Reagan.

I think he totally failed in that mission. And it would be ones opinion to decide whether the rightward shift is purposeful or if it is how politics works.

Obama isn't moving the country in the opposite direction of Reagan, he is moving it in the same direction as Reagan did. And that is my opinion. And we are allowed to disagree.

[geek tragedy]

40. No one who looks at the overall policies of Reagan and Obama

would conclude that it's even a close call, let alone that Obama is more rightwing than Reagan.

[boston bean]

41. I did not say Obama was more rightwing than Reagan.

In fact, I disagree with Cenk. I think he's gotten it wrong.

[ProSense]

44. "Obama isn't moving the country in the opposite direction of Reagan, he is moving it in the same"

Yes, Reagan wanted to provide health coverage for the unisured. He wanted protect public lands and was concerned about hate crimes and civil rights, Bork was going to deliver on these desires. Reagan's pro-deregulation stance was exactly the same as Obama pro regulation position.

[boston bean]

48. If Reagan could have gotten the democrats to go along with a boon doggle for the Ins. Co's

you bet your patootie he would. Especially if he knew that no one he was giving it to would actually be able to afford care, but still had to pay the premiums.

Obama was in the process of bowing down to the energy industry.

Obama has used his bully pulpit to get dems in line on regulation.

I wouldn't make the comparison on civil rights, one would be a fool to do that.

I like Obama's SCOTUS picks.

Those last two difference you point out, do not negate some of the similarities. And they aren't just little similarities. They are his policy and agenda.

[ProSense]

51. If does not make it a fact.

"Obama was in the process of bowing down to the energy industry."

Yeah, Obama's green revolution looks just like Reagan's pathetic record:

<...>

Before delving further into Reagan's track record, it's worth recalling his infamous public statement that "trees cause more pollution than automobiles do," and that if "you've seen one tree you've seen them all." This is not, in other words, a president who demonstrated much ecological prowess.

Reagan's ignorance in this area is personified by James Watt and Anne Gorsuch, the leaders he selected to head the Department of Interior and the U.S. EPA, respectively. "Never has America seen two more intensely controversial and blatantly anti-environmental political appointees than Watt and Gorsuch," said Greg Wetstone, director of advocacy at the Natural Resources Defense Council, who served on the Hill during the Reagan era as chief environment council at the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

The list of rollbacks attempted by these administrators is as sweeping as those of the current administration. Gorsuch tried to gut the Clean Air Act with proposals to weaken pollution standards "on everything from automobiles to furniture manufacturers -- efforts which took Congress two years to defeat," according to Clapp. Moves to weaken the Clean Water Act were equally aggressive, crescendoing in 1987 when Reagan vetoed a strong reauthorization of the act only to have his veto overwhelmingly overridden by Congress. Assaults on Superfund were so hideous that Rita Lavelle, director of the program, was thrown in jail for lying to Congress under oath about corruption in her agency division.

The gutting of funds for environmental protection was another part of Reagan's legacy. "EPA budget cuts during Reagan's first term were worse than they are today," said Frank O'Donnell, director of Clean Air Trust, who reported on environmental policy for The Washington Monthly during the Reagan era. "The administration tried to cut EPA funding by more than 25 percent in its first budget proposal," he said. And massive cuts to Carter-era renewable-energy programs "set solar back a decade," said Clapp.

Reagan was among the worst Presidents on the environment.

[geek tragedy]

57. Don't tell the Firebaggers. nt

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. It's entirely on point.

He cherry picked a few issues of Reagan's and a few of Obama's to prove some kind of asinine point to drive up website traffic. In this case, I would think a rebuttal including the items he didn't cherry pick would be entirely relevant to the discussion.

[donco6]

25. The fact remains, a lot of people are still confused about Obama's decisions.

Particularly on the issues Cenk brought up. It's not easy to explain them while keeping a distance from conservatism.

As far as ascribing motives (to drive up website traffic), I'll leave that up to you.

[ProSense]

29. What does people being confused have to do claiming Obama is to the right of Reagan?

Particularly on the issues Cenk brought up.

"• Lowered Taxes Significantly (Stimulus Bill)"

Cenk is a moron!

[BeyondGeography]

21. Reagan raised suspiciousness of government for the entire white population

Cenk knows this and is just yanking the loony left's chain here. Consider yourself yanked.

[dionysus]

43. in your neverending need to hate obama, you guys have grasped onto the most idiotic meme i have seen

yet.

and you're reduced to having wannabe douchebags like cenk and greenwald as your heroes.

it's hillarious.

[donco6]

97. Well, for one thing I've never hated Obama.

I campaigned for, donated to, and voted for the guy. Now his policies - yeah, some of them I hate.

I just thought Cenk's article was interesting, and I didn't see how he was being shredded, as the OP claimed. I saw lots of angry namecalling - sort of like on this thread. But as far as coherent rebuttals, . . . not so much.

But there it is - I guess Cenk is now a douchebag with all the others - seems more folks are thrown under the bus every day! I'm just glad I can still read a paper or blog or magazine without having to mentally censor everything. It's so much more liberating!

[OnyxCollie]

103. Broad brush much?

IOKIYABOG

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. I'd think real progressives wouldn't consider that list to be a "yawner" (nt)

[donco6]

28. I do, and for the reasons I provided.

And since "we're all progressives here", I'd think that would be a moot point.

[cali]

32. hahahaha. I do so love hypocrisy.

you complain about the posters on kos and here not giving reasons why cenk's diary is such tripe (and plenty did) and you give exactly ZERO reasons as to why that list is a yawn.

Unfuckingbelievable.

[karynnj]

34. Agreed

Beyond that the list frames everything in RW terms. "Cut and Run" alone is a dead give away. Not to mention it is cherry picking that distorts both men's records.

It is true that Reagan raised taxes, but the greater truth is that he shifted the tax burden from the rich to the poor and middle class. One way this was done was by increasing the FICA taxes to deal with the imminent retirement of the baby boomers - and then adding the SS surplus to the general budget, which would have otherwise had even bigger deficits due to the cuts in income tax, especially for the wealthy. Now, people like Greenspan, who pushed for that increase to "keep SS solvent" argue that the money spent is "gone". It is inconceivable that he did not see this would happen - so he really replaced money from a progressive tax (income) with a more regressive one (FICA). This was, of course, the insult to the injury of now telling people, that even though they paid higher SS and Medicare taxes since the mid 1980s to insure the money would be there, that money is not there and a commission will look at how to "fix" that.

[Hannah Bell]

115. "so he really replaced money from a progressive tax (income) with a more regressive one (FICA)"

more to the point, he replaced money that primarily taxed capital with money that solely taxed labor.

the employers' portion of fica is considered employee compensation & creates a tax deduction for employers.

[Lionheart23]

100. Perhaps you think Kossacks "shredded" Cenk because you agree with the Kossacks

Just saying.

[cali]

106. Perhaps it's because it actually happened

it got knocked off the rec list and the top recced diary this morning is a refutation of Cenk's feeble diary.

[Robb]

5. It's lazy, sensational, and ultimately worthless.

I had a roommate in college who used an indexed bible to find words related to every single paper he ever had to write for his English major classes. And at a notoriously liberal university such as this, no one ever called him on the laziness because no one else ever compared Ginsberg to Leviticus, and no one wanted to offend him -- because someone clearly so versed in the bible must be a person of faith.

In the end, a reader learns nothing of substance about Ginsberg or the bible, but only pays attention and marvels at the comparison.

[chrisa]

36. This article is far from interesting.

It's blatent hyperbolic tripe. I can't even imagine making the argument that Obama is anywhere near Reagan - the facts clearly show otherwise.

It's a reactionary piece - not well thought out.

[ProSense]

11. Cenk is an idiot, and I agree with this comment

Two explanations for this diary:

1). Cenk knows better and is just trolling (Iran Contra was a liberal policy?)

2). Cenk is dumber than Sarah Palin.

Cenk used to be a Republican, maybe he's trying to vindicate his past by attacking a Democratic President.

Flashback: Republicans Opposed Medicare In 1960s By Warning Of Rationing, ‘Socialized Medicine’

[donco6]

13. Case in point.

Typical ad hominem attack, as are the rest of the posts. But if that's what you guys call "shredding" then I'll bow to your wisdom.

[ProSense]

15. So you dispute that Iran Contra is not a liberal policy?

Or are you disputing that Cenk is dumber than Sarah Palin?

[suzie]

30. Crickets all of a sudden.

[donco6]

70. Sorry had to go to work.

But will work on it again soon.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

27. You think Iran Contra was a liberal policy?

You wish we had Ronald Reagan instead of Barack Obama right now?

[vaberella]

54. He used to be a Republican? You're kidding.

What is up with these former Republican's?! It's like Ariana Huffington and her moments of silliness. Maybe they channel each other on their off time.

[BeyondGeography]

20. Where to begin?

:dunce:

[vaberella]

55. ...

:rofl: I love the dunce hat.

[zulchzulu]

22. Cenk stands for Clueless Enfeebled Naive Klutz

There...

Comparing Obama to Reagan at this early stage is simply a fool's folly.

[karynnj]

24. Weird that he buys RW definitions of what is conservative or not - especially "cut and run"

Not to mention - it was under GWB that billions were funneled to the banks. Obama also did not "order" increased offshore drilling. He simply spoke of stepping back from the constraints he had added to what Bush allowed. It is also not clear that he changed the drug importation rules at all - the problem was he didn't push to have them changed.

[girl gone mad]

35. Trillions have been funneled to the banks..

and Obama supported every cent.

[karynnj]

38. How much of that has been paid back and under which President did it happen?

The fact is that their was bipartisan support for that bailout. The consequences of NOT doing it would have made the current recession look good. By the time it was done, credit was almost completely dried up for small businesses - there STILL is too little liquidity, but that would have been worse. NO ONE wanted to help the banks, but the consequences were too great.

[phleshdef]

42. Money was loaned to the fucking banks.

This blatantly dishonest mischaracterization of what occurred with the bailout has to stop.

[vaberella]

56. This is common for Cenk.

I love this show but he's done that several several, several times.

[phleshdef]

58. I think certain "progressives" are just sore because we didn't nationalize the banks.

Anything short of a complete powergrab against the corporations or putting them out of business (regardless of consequences) is apparently unprogressive and cowtowing.

[vaberella]

59. You are exactly right.

I remember when this was suggested by Krugman. Many on this board was hoping for that and were livid when Obama didn't do that. And by not doing that Geigthner became enemy no.1.

[girl gone mad]

112. But we did effectively nationalize the banks...

by giving them unfettered access to our national treasure.

What we did not do is prosecute any of the profligate crimes that were the cause of the crisis, hold management accountable or ask bondholders to take a proper haircut.

In fact we rewarded the criminals. Geithner used our money to buy their worthless garbage at top market prices. They got 0% loans from the Fed and then financed our national debt at 3%-6%, raking in hundreds of billions in the process.

To quote Charles Hugh Smith: "in "saving our financial system," the public borrowed trillions and transferred the money to private Power Elites, who then buy the public debt with the money swindled out of the taxpayer. Then the taxpayers transfer more wealth every year to the Power Elites/Plutocracy in the form of interest on the Treasury debt. The Power Elites will own the debt that was taken on to bail them out of bad private bets: this is the culmination of privatized gains, socialized risk. "

Taxpayer capital alone rescued the banks. Taxpayers simply aren't allowed to share in the rewards of the bailouts. It's Oligarchical Collectivism or Corporate Communism. Nationalization that solely rewards the elite class of criminals that have parasitically engorged on the fruits of the productive economy for decades now.

[girl gone mad]

102. Some money was loaned, at virtually 0% interest..

Some was given in various cash for trash, casino leverage and tax forgiveness schemes, some was promised through backstops, some was gifted in stock purchase deals designed to screw over the taxpayer, etc.




One minute you guys are saying Obama didn't have anything to do with the bailouts and they were all Bush's fault, the next you're proclaiming that the bailouts were capitalism's greatest achievement.

[chrisa]

33. The fridge has been nuked, the shark jumped.

Especially with the "Obama might be as far right as Reagan" statement.

[DrToast]

39. He's got some weird defintions of liberal/conservative policies, that's for sure

That guy's always been a little too full of himself for my tastes.

[harun]

67. He's using the Conservatives non-sensical definitions on purpose.

He's right on but most won't get it.

[PAMod]

108. +1

That's how I took it, too.

[Jennicut]

46. Cherry picking is utter crap.

Reagan instituted the global gag order on family planning, increased the national debt from $1T in 1980 to $3T in 1988, believed in generating growth by stimulating the supply side, supported a constitutional amendment to allow prayer in schools, targeted the Dept. of Education to be abolished, dismissed acid rain proposals as burdensome to industry, had the Iran-Contra scandal, believed in New Federalism: shift programs to states & deregulate, started the idiotic Star Wars, said many homeless people chose to be, was incredibly slow to act on AIDS.....etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on and on.http://www.ontheissues.org/Ronald_Reagan.htm

It is utter BS to cherry pick a few things that Reagan did and say he is less conservative then Obama. Same with Nixon. It is utter ridiculousness.

Listen, Reagan started the whole government is bad and it must be drowned thing. It has taken us 20 years just to get back to having merely a moderate President. The future is clear, the baby boomers that loved Reagan are getting older (not all of them did but a good amount). The millenials are getting older. The demographics are going to shift the country more to the left over time regardless of what happens in the midterms. Rethugs will not be on top for long.

[DrToast]

47. A response to Cenk Uygur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[vaberella]

52. ...

:rofl: <---I can't stop laughing. ~sigh~ However this vidoe is more fitting for anything Palin says.

[Festivito]

49. I think some people are after Cenk, and this thread was a further attempt.

I don't like him that much (he takes too long to get to the meat and his videos always start in silence that doesn't let me adjust the volume).

Lambasting the ridiculous Conservatives that their icon is worse than Obama is a good thing.

[ProSense]

50. "Lambasting the ridiculous Conservatives that their icon is worse than Obama is a good thing."

By claiming Obama is worse than Reagan?

He needs to rethink his strategy if his goal is to convince conservatives that Reagan did it too. He comes off as someone completely out of touch with reality.

His diary is a huge FAIL.

[vaberella]

53. Far from it.

Unlike you, I like Cenk a great deal. But I have caught Cenk either over simplifying things or making exaggerating others. So the "attacks" are not unwarranted at times. In this regard, I think Cenk went over the top.

[harun]

69. He's also trying to show how utterly obsurd it is for Conservatives

to whine about Obama being some Left Wing lunatic. Obama is governing center-right by today's standards and far-right by 1980's standards.

The big picture is this country politically has been on a rightward move since 1980 and it hasn't stopped. Our politicians from the Right and Left are giving us two different versions of Corporate Representation. Neither of which is representing the people.

Cenk is trying to urge people to take a step back and see this. From the posts on this thread it looks like he needs to try harder because most aren't getting it.

[vaberella]

73. Can you provide a line in the article he posts..

which shows clearly that the article "shows how utterly absurd it is for Conservatives to whine about Obama being some Left Wing lunatic..." Because I don't get this. He listed some policies as left wing which are utterly right wing in regards to Reagan. I get the feeling you might be rationalizing this.

[Jennicut]

82. Cenk's argument goes nowhere because he fails to take into account

how socially conservative Reagan really was. He wanted a constitutional amendment for allowing prayer in schools! I mean, come on now.
There are major differences between a centrist moderate Democrat and a conservative Republican. The hyperbole is out of control and in the process, a good leftist like Cenk is turning some people off and some will simply tune his other good arguments out.

[ellenfl]

76. your characterization of a lambasting is exectly how i saw that segment, too.

all righties and some lefties already consider obama a far lefty so this comparison was a slam at the ultimate conservative hero of the rw, imo. you guys read a lot more into it than i did. :eyes:

ellen fl

[impik]

60. And we make fun of right wingnuts, when we have so many of our own

[Enrique]

61. I hope a lot of conservatives saw Cenk on MSNBC

some might realize the RW media is lying to them about Obama (and about Reagan too).

[ProSense]

62. Yes, what we really need is Cenk to convince the RW that Obama is a liar. n/t

[Enrique]

63. Obama is telling the truth

he's a centrist.

The RW and some democrats are together pushing the idea that he is a leftist.

Good for Cenk for being one of the few who call things as they are.

[geek tragedy]

64. Obama is in the middle, Reagan was an extreme rightwinger. nt

[ProSense]

68. "The RW and some democrats are together pushing the idea that he is a leftist."

That's all this is about, isn't it?

Let's look at the President's battles since day one:

Stimulus, fought by Republicans and conservative Democrats.

Budget, fought by Republicans and conservative Democrats.

Health care reform, major battle with Republicans and conservative Democrats.

Financial reform, major battle with Republicans and conservative Democrats. In the House, 18 blue dogs voted against it as opposed to the entire progressive caucus minus one.

The fact is that the President is pushing progressive policies and there is significant opposition in Congress.

Progressives say the bills don't go far enough because conservative Democrats water them down, but not enough for them to vote for these bills.

[Enrique]

71. Obama waters them down

Obama calls Harry Reid at midnight and tells him to cave to the GOP and cut billions from the stimulus. Obama tells Pelosi to take out family planning funding. Obama kills the public option and all compromises resembling the public option.

[ProSense]

72. No he doesn't, and that still has nothing to do with Cenk's idiotic comparison. n/t

[vaberella]

74. Are you shitting me?!

Okay, you're totally warped on the facts, but whatever.

[dionysus]

93. i think you're operating from a different reality than, well, reality.

[ProSense]

65. Here's Cenk's exact statement:

The Obama team would argue that they did a lot of this because the Republicans made them do it. First, that's entirely untrue because the Republicans didn't make them pass any bills. The GOP also didn't give most of this legislation a single yes vote, so they could have been entirely ignored if Obama had the courage to do that. And many of the items on the list are executive actions, which the Republicans have no control over.

Second, conservative is as conservative does. If you implement this many conservative positions, are you really sure you're not one?

Now, people will cry and scream that we had the most historic health care reform and will soon have the most historic financial reform ever. Isn't that progressive enough?! No, that's nonsense. They are called historic only because the White House called them that. Financial reform is a joke that still leaves the big banks in charge and has failed to end "too big to fail." And yes, health care reform actually covers more people if they ever get it (maybe in 2014) and if they can afford it (depends on what private insurance decides to charge them), but it still leaves the health care system exactly as it was before. This is the progressive change people voted for?

Got that? Obama is to the right of Reagan for regulating the financial industry. Cenk is a moron.





Edited punc.

[Jennicut]

83. LOL! Conservatives would even watch MSNBC?

Also, to them it is not lies. To them, moderate centrism really is far left socialism. That is how far to the right they really are. Far left socialism is off the map for them, their heads would explode if they ever came in contact with it in the United States.

[jefferson_dem]

107. They might realize that some supposed "lefties" are just as nutty as some of their own.

:dunce:

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

78. He clearly doesn't care about the place

All of his diaries are drivebys.

[Dinger]

77. Take Your Pick: dead intern joe or Cenk. K & R

It's an easy choice. Think about it.

[ProSense]

81. Cenk's message to conservatives:

We'd be better off with Reagan.

[CherylK]

86. The OP left out the most imporant part of the blog!!!

From Cenk's blog...

I don't think Obama is a hard right-winger. It's just that the political establishment in this country has moved so far to the right (though not the public, according to polls on specific issues) that as a natural politician when he goes to appease them, he is solidly center-right on the spectrum.

[vaberella]

87. How does he appease them?

Many of the deals that are being made in regards for laws are done by Dems in House/Senate...not by Obama. He has in many ways tried to influence positions but we've seen him more often than not fail in those attempts. It's mainly House/Senate Dems making these concessions.

[CherylK]

89. You are right, it is NOT just Obama!

The Dems in the House/Senate are to blame too. Reagan did not move the country to the right himself either. Obama and the Dems are not doing nearly enough to push us back in the right direction. 1% here and there is not real change. And before you say anything I know we can not have all of what we want over night, NO ONE thinks that! I am in the middle between being satisfied with little or no change and 100% change. It is so true that just because people call something historic does not make it true, or true strong progressive change!

[ProSense]

90. Look at your statement:

"Reagan did not move the country to the right himself either. Obama and the Dems are not doing nearly enough to push us back in the right direction."

Before Reagan, there was Carter. After Reagan, there was Poppy Bush.

As for your point about "not doing nearly enough," that completely destroys Cenk's moronic argument that Obama is to the right of Reagan.

[CherylK]

94. LOL!

Do you know what hyperbole means? You must since you said "completely destroys"! Cenk's point is that the political spectrum has moved so far to the right. You are so caught up in all things Obama that you can't see the big picture. The whole system, all of Washington has moved to the right! The only place I can criticize Cenk here is to say that no matter who we elected the system would only let them do so much. But I believe Obama could be more progressive and push Dems harder and not cut so many deals with big pharma and root for drill baby drill back in April.

Let's agree to disagree. I have seen your posts before and I do not want to spend the rest of my day saying things that will never, ever get through to you.

[ProSense]

95. "Cenk's point is that the political spectrum has moved so far to the right."

"The whole system, all of Washington has moved to the right!"

Cenk is wrong.

Like I said, the move to the right was ushered in by Reagan.

The 80s and 90s ushered in a fever of deregulation and contempt for social spending.

The pendulum is swinging back, and it didn't start with Obama's election. Go back to 2006 and see the wave of populism that drove the election of Senators like Tester and Whitehouse.

Regardless of the damage caused by Reagan, things are changing. Cenk's absurd comparison is designed to argue that Obama is taking the country further to the right.

[ProSense]

88. "I don't think Obama is a hard right-winger." How generous of Cenk.

Cenk's analysis left out the more important phenomenon: Reagan is the reason the country moved right. The Republican reaction of today is exactly because they fear the opposite of what Cenk claims. They see the pendulum swinging back. It's why Arizona preempted the federal government on immigration. It's why a civil union bill made it to the desk of the Governor of Hawaii. It's why the majority of the country supports the repeal of DADT and support health care reform. It's why the Progressive Caucus now outnumbers the blue dog coalition. It's why socialism is polling higher among Americans.

[NorthCarolina]

118. If you are trying to prove a point that isn't factual, you need to cherrypick

your snippets carefully. Obviously including the snippet you posted would have made the argument posed by the OP impossible to make.

[NorthCarolina]

117. That's so absolutely false, it's ridiculous

Nowhere did Cenk make that claim. If you don't like the guy fine...who gives a rats ass, but lets at least try to keep the truth meter above ZERO in our comments.

Here's the meat of Cenk's argument (of course this was omitted from the OP because it would prove counterproductive to the argument the OP was trying to make):

"Reagan also took the country further right in many ways but our political spectrum has moved so far to the right that he looks left behind by comparison (Cenk hidden message unable to be decoded by conservative Dems....apparently). So, let's go to Obama and see what that "socialist" is up to (For the Cenk impaired, that statement is an MSM slam).

Barack Obama:

• Escalated the Afghanistan War (Added 30,000 More Troops)
• Escalated the Afghanistan War (Added 30,000 More Troops)
• Has Ordered Drone Strikes (Assassinations) on US Citizens Outside the Country
• Gave Drug Companies Near Monopoly Power by Barring Imports, Extending Patents and Not Allowing the Government to Negotiate Better Prices
• Funneled Billions into the Biggest Banks in the Country After They Crashed the Economy
• Stacked Deficit Commission with Fiscal Conservatives
• Lowered Taxes Significantly (Stimulus Bill)
• Ordered Increased Offshore Drilling Before BP Spill

The Obama team would argue that they did a lot of this because the Republicans made them do it. First, that's entirely untrue because the Republicans didn't make them pass any bills. The GOP also didn't give most of this legislation a single yes vote, so they could have been entirely ignored if Obama had the courage to do that. And many of the items on the list are executive actions, which the Republicans have no control over.

Second, conservative is as conservative does. If you implement this many conservative positions, are you really sure you're not one?"

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Of course Cenk is spot on, and the fact that he explained this so well is what has all the conservatives titties in a twitter. Cenk now becomes another Hampsher, or Huffington, or Kucinich, or Grayson, or any others that thrown anything other than roses at this administration. What truly amazes me is that while they despise the left with all their might, when it comes down to public discussion, the conservatives always seem to want to verbally paint their brand to the "left" of where they really are. If you're all fired up about Obama and his policies and the job he has done so far, then in all probability you are a conservative, embrace it and get on with life.

[Uzybone]

84. the running-on-outrage internet "left" is insane

[Enrique]

91. yes, they should stick with the more sensible TV "left"

[dionysus]

92. or... how about a rational place in between?

[Forkboy]

96. There is a rational place in between....offline.

:)

[dionysus]

99. spoil all the fun why dontcha!

:hi:

[Uzybone]

98. there is no TV "left' save Rachel Maddow

the rest are cable clowns, much like the internet outraged "left" are also clowns.

[Hannah Bell]

116. maddow's not "left". she's a talking head on corporate tv.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

110. How about the more sensible 87% of liberal Democrats?

I'll stick with them. http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx

[Ramulux]

105. How so?

Are you saying that there is nothing that the left should be upset about or just that we shouldn't blame Obama for it?

[Ramulux]

101. What is going on with people here?

This article is trying to make a simple point, its not trying to imply that Obama is a full on conservative. Cenk is making a point about how the political spectrum has moved to the right and how Obama is barely a liberal when you look at his positions in the context of history.

The blind Obama love on this thread is ridiculous. We get that he has a bunch of accomplishments and that's great, but if you want to just focus on that and not on his failures then of course he will seem awesome.

Instead of just complaining that people are being mean to Obama why dont you offer up some sort of explanation as to why hes done all the crap hes done.

[donco6]

104. Whatever you do, don't say it was "an interesting article."

That's enough to get them going.

[ProSense]

109. "Cenk is making a point about how the political spectrum

has moved to the right and how Obama is barely a liberal when you look at his positions in the context of history."

No, this is Cenk, proving that he is a moron

Of all the people to pick to make his point, he picks Reagan, who is the reason the country moved right.

Before Reagan, there was Carter. After Reagan there was Poppy Bush.

The reason for the Democrats' successes in the last two elections is that the country has been gripped by a wave of populism. The GOP is trying to take advantage of that by positioning the teabaggers as populist when they are in fact, RW Republicans.

The Republican reaction of today is exactly because they fear the opposite of what Cenk claims. They see the pendulum swinging back. It's why Arizona's Republican Governor preempted the federal government on immigration. It's why a civil union bill made it to the desk of the Governor of Hawaii. It's why the majority of the country supports the repeal of DADT and support health care reform. It's why the Progressive Caucus now outnumbers the blue dog coalition. It's why socialism is polling higher among Americans.

Cenk comparison is absurd, and his statements about the country moving right are to mask the bullshit claims he makes about Obama.

[Ramulux]

111. You didnt even read what I wrote

Your just proving my point about how weird and illogical all the Obama devotees on this site are.

I will make this very clear so you dont go off about something I didn't even bring up.

Are the people of this country more liberal than they were 40 years ago? Absolutely. I never said they weren't.

Has Obama done some really good stuff as president? Of course. There is no way that all the things you brought up would have been done under a republican president.

However, the article isn't talking about any of that stuff. There are two points that Cenk makes, the first being that the right has engaged in such an effective smear campaign on liberalism that actual liberal positions simply aren't respected by anyone in the media or the political establishment. The second is that Obama has been an extremely moderate, corporatist president who is not willing to fight for liberal legislation.

Cenk isn't trying to say that Obama is "really" more of a conservative than Reagan, that's ridiculous. He is simply using Reagan as an example of how the political spectrum has shifted on certain issues to the point where the liberal position no longer even exists. With Obama all we get is compromise and when you compromise between far right ideas and centrist ideas you get slightly right-leaning legislation.

[donco6]

113. Exactly.

Good summary.

[inna]

114. Amazing, isn't it. Twilight zone.

:crazy:


Thanks for your rationality, it was badly needed in this bizarre thread.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

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